Good 9MM carbine?
- Thread starter MR.G
- Start date
- Status
BillinNH
Member
Go for the Kel-Tec. I also have a sub2k in S&W59 format and it has worked well for me for a couple years. Very accurate. It is well suited to your purposes and you won't regret it.
If you want to save some money, get a Hi-Point 995 carbine which is almost as good as the KT but has only its own, low capacity magazines.
Go for the Kel-Tec.
Bill
If you want to save some money, get a Hi-Point 995 carbine which is almost as good as the KT but has only its own, low capacity magazines.
Go for the Kel-Tec.
Bill
R.W.Dale
Member
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong But I don't believe you can mount a scope/reddot on the Kel-tec as you can with the hi-point. Something you may want to consider.
sabre452
Member
I have had good success with the Ruger PC9. Cheap, reliable, Standard Capacity Ruger magazines and Ghost Ring sites. What's not to like other than Ruger's old politics?
BillinNH
Member
<Somebody correct me if I'm wrong But I don't believe you can mount a scope/reddot on the Kel-tec as you can with the hi-point. Something you may want to consider.>
KT sells a folding scope mount which holds one inch scope tubes. I understand it is a bear to get it properly installed and that it can lose zero sometimes when you fold/unfold it. But if you set it up and don't keep folding/unfolding it, it works fine. Since I have another scoped 9mm carbine I leave the KT unscoped and just use the peep site.
Hipoint allows you to use scope, peep/ghost sight or both. But it doesn't fold like the KelTec does. I use the open sights on my Hipoint and a simple 3-9x32 scope on my Camp Carbine.
Bill
KT sells a folding scope mount which holds one inch scope tubes. I understand it is a bear to get it properly installed and that it can lose zero sometimes when you fold/unfold it. But if you set it up and don't keep folding/unfolding it, it works fine. Since I have another scoped 9mm carbine I leave the KT unscoped and just use the peep site.
Hipoint allows you to use scope, peep/ghost sight or both. But it doesn't fold like the KelTec does. I use the open sights on my Hipoint and a simple 3-9x32 scope on my Camp Carbine.
Bill
I have owned three in the past: Ruger PC9, Hi-Point, and AR15.
The AR15 is head and shoulders above the other three. It has become one of my faviorite guns. Mine is a factory Colt, which is undoubtably the most expensive route to go (not nessessary). Just like any other AR15, it gives you all kinds of options. Want a new trigger ? There are dozens out there to choose from. Optics ? Mount right on the flat top. Iron Sights ? many to choose from. Switch back and forth ? No problem. What if I want to mount a conventional rifle scope, or an Aimpoint, or a Holosight, or an Eotech ? takes only a second. What if I want all of them and switch out with every shot I fire: can do and it's easy and painless. Want to mount a light or night vision ? Easy. Different upper ? switch out in seconds.
I have mine registered as a short barreled rifle and have an 11.5" barreled upper for it as well as an integrally suppressed upper from LRM.
I know what you are going to say already: I am not going to do any of that stuff. I would rather spend half the money and severely limit myself because I only thought in the short term:
Two years from now, or five years from now, you might change your mind or you might have different circumstances. However, the decision you make today might seriously limit what you can do tomorrow. I prefer to keep my options open and buy stuff that is versitile and able to change with my desires.
I shot my Hi-Point yesterday for the first time in years. It is OK for the money. I don't have anything bad to say about it. But it isn't in the same league with the AR15.
The AR15 is head and shoulders above the other three. It has become one of my faviorite guns. Mine is a factory Colt, which is undoubtably the most expensive route to go (not nessessary). Just like any other AR15, it gives you all kinds of options. Want a new trigger ? There are dozens out there to choose from. Optics ? Mount right on the flat top. Iron Sights ? many to choose from. Switch back and forth ? No problem. What if I want to mount a conventional rifle scope, or an Aimpoint, or a Holosight, or an Eotech ? takes only a second. What if I want all of them and switch out with every shot I fire: can do and it's easy and painless. Want to mount a light or night vision ? Easy. Different upper ? switch out in seconds.
I have mine registered as a short barreled rifle and have an 11.5" barreled upper for it as well as an integrally suppressed upper from LRM.
I know what you are going to say already: I am not going to do any of that stuff. I would rather spend half the money and severely limit myself because I only thought in the short term:
Two years from now, or five years from now, you might change your mind or you might have different circumstances. However, the decision you make today might seriously limit what you can do tomorrow. I prefer to keep my options open and buy stuff that is versitile and able to change with my desires.I shot my Hi-Point yesterday for the first time in years. It is OK for the money. I don't have anything bad to say about it. But it isn't in the same league with the AR15.
I've been happy with the Ruger PC9. I have a Weigand weaver scope rail and a Millett red dot combo that works well with that rifle. Makes tidy groups out to 50 yards, which is probably the maximum effective range I'd feel comfortable using that cartridge. It's rugged, built to withstand even +P+ according to Ruger. It's cycled everything I've fed it so far. Magazines are readily available, don't cost an arm and a leg, and will swap with the Ruger P-series pistols. The trigger is a little heavy and it's not as easy to clean as some rifles. It's not the shortest carbine you'll find, but it's one of my shortest rifles. I'll keep mine with no complaints.
jmm
jmm
browningguy
Member
I have a Kel-Tec with the Glock 17 mag well and love it. With the so-so factory sights it's still good for 2" groups or so at 50 yards, good enough for its intended purpose. I've got the lower rail on mine with a surefire light and it works very well. If you mounted the combo laser/light it would be even better.
While I have an AR with 6x45 and 50 Beowulf uppers I don't consider getting a 9mm upper to be a reasonable deal. You can buy a couple of KelTecs, or 3-4 Hi Points for the price of the AR upper and a couple of mags. And sure, you could trick out the AR, and make it even more expensive, but what's the point with a 9mm?
While I have an AR with 6x45 and 50 Beowulf uppers I don't consider getting a 9mm upper to be a reasonable deal. You can buy a couple of KelTecs, or 3-4 Hi Points for the price of the AR upper and a couple of mags. And sure, you could trick out the AR, and make it even more expensive, but what's the point with a 9mm?
The Kel-Tec is very nice. Particularly nice with 33 round Glock mags. The Hi-Point is not a bad firearm. Both have been completely reliable so far. Advantages of the Kel-Tec are the magazine, and ease of disassembly. Only paid $275 for the Kel-Tec, not much more that the Hi-Point.
"You can buy a couple of KelTecs, or 3-4 Hi Points for the price of the AR upper and a couple of mags."
And you still won't have an AR in 9mm.
"what's the point with a 9mm?"
Well, it's just like any other purchase you will make in your life. You can have an also ran. Or a couple also rans. Or you can have the best. What you buy is up to you. If I can afford the best, I buy the best. In this case, I can afford it. I learned long ago that I can buy a whole safe full of cheap guns, or I can buy a few really good guns. I have done both. The latter is more fun for me. YMMV
And you still won't have an AR in 9mm.
"what's the point with a 9mm?"
Well, it's just like any other purchase you will make in your life. You can have an also ran. Or a couple also rans. Or you can have the best. What you buy is up to you. If I can afford the best, I buy the best. In this case, I can afford it. I learned long ago that I can buy a whole safe full of cheap guns, or I can buy a few really good guns. I have done both. The latter is more fun for me. YMMV
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
I like the KT and may yet get one. Have the Hi-Point but hate it - even tho it works!
I enjoy the Marlin Camp 9 but fave is the Beretta CX4 Storm. Total Buck Rogers looks but the ergonomics are good - get it in hand and it feels excellent - shoots good too. Main gripe is trigger is very rough - need to improve mine one day.
Mine has the rail and has a red dot on - no longer that fat thing in the pic but a Bushnell - good combination. They are IMO pretty over priced tho.
I enjoy the Marlin Camp 9 but fave is the Beretta CX4 Storm. Total Buck Rogers looks but the ergonomics are good - get it in hand and it feels excellent - shoots good too. Main gripe is trigger is very rough - need to improve mine one day.
Mine has the rail and has a red dot on - no longer that fat thing in the pic but a Bushnell - good combination. They are IMO pretty over priced tho.
R.W.Dale
Member
SO? is that some kind of requirement.
Good for you do you want a cookie or sumpin
"SO? is that some kind of requirement."
No, but I think you get my point even if you don't realize it.
One has nothing to do with the other. For the same money you could buy a car load of Cracker Jack or a gross of fishing lures. But, you still won't have an AR15. If you want an AR15, there is no substitute. I don't care if they give you 50 Hi-Points, it isn't what I want.
No, but I think you get my point even if you don't realize it.
One has nothing to do with the other. For the same money you could buy a car load of Cracker Jack or a gross of fishing lures. But, you still won't have an AR15. If you want an AR15, there is no substitute. I don't care if they give you 50 Hi-Points, it isn't what I want.
R.W.Dale
Member
And what if the guy doesn't want to buy an example you're vastly superior AR what then.
Then he can re-read my post right up to the part where I said "What you buy is up to you."
The guy asked for advice. Since I have owned three of the guns in question, I offered my opinion, just like everybody else.
If you don't like my opinion, don't read my posts.
It really is that simple.
In fact, if you want to make it really simple, you can block my posts so they don't even show up on your screen. That feature is listed under "User CP" then click on "Ignore Lists"
The guy asked for advice. Since I have owned three of the guns in question, I offered my opinion, just like everybody else.
If you don't like my opinion, don't read my posts.
It really is that simple.
In fact, if you want to make it really simple, you can block my posts so they don't even show up on your screen. That feature is listed under "User CP" then click on "Ignore Lists"
R.W.Dale
Member
Sorry But I just get a kick out the way that in the process of giving the guy some good sound advice you just have go give yourself a huge pat on the back in the process.
You gotta love THR
You gotta love THR
chaim
Member
The only 9mm carbine I've had any experience with is the Hi-Point. I used to own one. It was a decent gun, emphasis on decent. It was reliable and pretty accurate. Something about the ergonomics was far from right though- the stock would hit my cheek just right that it was not particularly pleasant to shoot. Something not quite right about a 9mm long gun that isn't comfortable on recoil. Still, it wasn't bad and I was keeping it. At a MD THR shoot one of the other shooters liked it, I was only lukewarm on it, and gave him a price if he wanted to take it home and he did. I've shot that same Hi-Point carbine at later shoots with the red dot sight he's added. It raises the cheek weld enough that it is now a comfortable gun to shoot- it doesn't hit my cheek anymore. It is also a tack driver at the kind of distances you'll shoot a 9mm carbine. That red dot makes enough difference that I'll probably be adding another Hi-Point plus a red dot sight soon.
I don't have experience with the 9mm version of the AR15, but I do love my .223/5.56 AR. I plan to add a 9mm upper before long so I can get more use out of my AR. If you have any experience with the AR15/M16 platform and if you like it you may want to consider this route as well.
I don't have experience with the 9mm version of the AR15, but I do love my .223/5.56 AR. I plan to add a 9mm upper before long so I can get more use out of my AR. If you have any experience with the AR15/M16 platform and if you like it you may want to consider this route as well.
rangerruck
Member
hi point has better accesory mountign possibilities.marlin cap carbine, i believe also takes s&w mags.
in the original post, the guy never mentioned anything about "cheap" carbines.. he asked for a "good" carbine. so maybe he'd consider the HK or AR.
and those berettas ARE nice to handle.
Advanced technologies makes a stock for the hi-point that's nearly identical to that beretta stock. for about $70 I think. if I knew how to post a picture, I'd show you. but I haven't gotten that far yet (feel free to teach me)
I think you can find a picture of that stock at cheaperthandirt.com
definite improvement of the "pry-bar" looking stock that comes with the hi-point. I dunno if I wanna shoot it, or use it to do construction
and those berettas ARE nice to handle.
Advanced technologies makes a stock for the hi-point that's nearly identical to that beretta stock. for about $70 I think. if I knew how to post a picture, I'd show you. but I haven't gotten that far yet (feel free to teach me)
I think you can find a picture of that stock at cheaperthandirt.com
definite improvement of the "pry-bar" looking stock that comes with the hi-point. I dunno if I wanna shoot it, or use it to do construction
This thread is becoming quite amusing. I guess people will find something to argue about no matter what. I think the point is that there are many fine options for 9mm carbines. Each person has their own likes and dislikes. Personally, what I value (what makes it "good") most in a close range defensive firearm of this type is reliability & magazine capacity. I like the Kel-Tec regardless of price, because it fills this niche well, not because it only cost $275. The Hi-Point is a fine “economical” carbine (doesn’t mean that it is “cheap”, just more easily acquired if one is working with limited funds). I will admit that I’ve not even considered the Beretta Storm because I can’t seeing paying $800 for a 9mm carbine (with more bells & whistles), when all I want is a basic defensive gun. Also I just can’t imagine that the quality/value of materials going into the Beretta are worth that much more than the Kel-Tec. Now if the Beretta proved to be superior in reliability and mag capacity (or if I wanted one with scope, etc), then the additional money might be well spent. The AR is a fine firearm, but I much prefer a “cheap” AK or SKS type firearm over the bells and whistles of an AR type range gun. Not that the AR cant function well in a defensive environment (of course it does), it’s just not what I’d want in a 9mm carbine.
Out of curiosity 444, is your 9mm AR reliable?
Out of curiosity 444, is your 9mm AR reliable?
Yeah, with good magazines.
Mine uses Colt magazines which are very expensive (like $80). I bought this gun during the "ban) but the price of these magazines has not really come down much since the sunset of the ban. Colt (as usual) doesn't want these 9mm mags to fall into the hands of mere civilians. I have some submachine gun magazines (Argentina ?) that were advertised to work in it and they do, but not as well. They don't lock the bolt back after the last round but other than that, they function OK. Pro-Mag is now selling a plastic mag for the 9mm Colt that I bought from Dillon. I have not had good luck with so far but I haven't really spent a lot of time with them. FWIW, magazines are either 20 or 32 rounds.
If you are converting a standard AR15 to 9mm, you can take a different route and use Sten magazines which are like $2.00 each. Sten mags are also 32 rounds. I bought my gun before I knew about this: mine is a Colt factory 9mm marked on the receiver as a 9mm. The mag block is pinned into the reciever. Most conversions use a drop-in mag block, so converting mine to the cheaper magazines isn't really an attractive idea.
Now, since this is the internet, I have to add that I have only fired my gun on ranges and during a few jackrabbit hunts. I never tried it during something like the D-Day landing or the invasion of North Africa. But, for my uses it runs fine. I have only cleaned it once since I bought it about 4-5 years ago. It operates by blow back in 9mm and not direct impingement like the 5.56 AR15/M16. There is no gas block, gas tube etc. The bolt is also different from a 5.56 AR15: there is not a seperate bolt and bolt carrier, it is all one piece.
I did have a little trouble when I first got the suppressed upper ( http://www.lrmfirearms.com/pages/863787/index.htm ). It took me awhile to figure out that the upper came with a "ramped" bolt. http://www.lrmfirearms.com/pages/866797/index.htm This was the source of malfunctions. I swapped out for my original bolt and it runs like a top. When using the suppressor, the gun gets extremly dirty with powder fouling (carbon ?). But, this doesn't seem to effect operation.
FWIW, I have fired the Colt SMG a few times and really wanted one. But, I have never seen a transferable one for sale and don't have any idea what one would cost. So, I bought the semi-auto and tried to make it look like the Colt SMG: http://www.colt.com/mil/SMG.asp
Here is an interesting article on the Colt SMG that also applies to the semi-auto in terms of range etc.: http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/coltm635.html Chuck Taylor seems to love his. He claims to have used it under battlefield conditions and never had a malfunction. He claims 4" groups at 100 yards and claims he can keep all his rounds in the "A" zone of a silhouette at 200 yards.
This gun, with the 11.5" upper (the 10.5" real Colt uppers were like 3x what I paid for the 11.5" I ended up with) is one of the handiest and fun guns I have ever owned.
Of course, since that time, I have learned a lot and now realize that you could make yourself up a Colt SMG by buying an M16 registered receiver and adding a 10.5" barreled 9mm upper, 9mm hammer, and a mag block.
Also FWIW, I don't think a semi-auto MP5 is in the same league with the AR15in 9mm. I have never handled one, but I have handled quite a few select fire MP5s. IMO, the AR15 is the better platform. Right out of the box it has far better sights to begin with. However, since mine is a flat top, I have an Aimpoint ML3 on mine.
Mine uses Colt magazines which are very expensive (like $80). I bought this gun during the "ban) but the price of these magazines has not really come down much since the sunset of the ban. Colt (as usual) doesn't want these 9mm mags to fall into the hands of mere civilians. I have some submachine gun magazines (Argentina ?) that were advertised to work in it and they do, but not as well. They don't lock the bolt back after the last round but other than that, they function OK. Pro-Mag is now selling a plastic mag for the 9mm Colt that I bought from Dillon. I have not had good luck with so far but I haven't really spent a lot of time with them. FWIW, magazines are either 20 or 32 rounds.
If you are converting a standard AR15 to 9mm, you can take a different route and use Sten magazines which are like $2.00 each. Sten mags are also 32 rounds. I bought my gun before I knew about this: mine is a Colt factory 9mm marked on the receiver as a 9mm. The mag block is pinned into the reciever. Most conversions use a drop-in mag block, so converting mine to the cheaper magazines isn't really an attractive idea.
Now, since this is the internet, I have to add that I have only fired my gun on ranges and during a few jackrabbit hunts. I never tried it during something like the D-Day landing or the invasion of North Africa. But, for my uses it runs fine. I have only cleaned it once since I bought it about 4-5 years ago. It operates by blow back in 9mm and not direct impingement like the 5.56 AR15/M16. There is no gas block, gas tube etc. The bolt is also different from a 5.56 AR15: there is not a seperate bolt and bolt carrier, it is all one piece.
I did have a little trouble when I first got the suppressed upper ( http://www.lrmfirearms.com/pages/863787/index.htm ). It took me awhile to figure out that the upper came with a "ramped" bolt. http://www.lrmfirearms.com/pages/866797/index.htm This was the source of malfunctions. I swapped out for my original bolt and it runs like a top. When using the suppressor, the gun gets extremly dirty with powder fouling (carbon ?). But, this doesn't seem to effect operation.
FWIW, I have fired the Colt SMG a few times and really wanted one. But, I have never seen a transferable one for sale and don't have any idea what one would cost. So, I bought the semi-auto and tried to make it look like the Colt SMG: http://www.colt.com/mil/SMG.asp
Here is an interesting article on the Colt SMG that also applies to the semi-auto in terms of range etc.: http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/coltm635.html Chuck Taylor seems to love his. He claims to have used it under battlefield conditions and never had a malfunction. He claims 4" groups at 100 yards and claims he can keep all his rounds in the "A" zone of a silhouette at 200 yards.
This gun, with the 11.5" upper (the 10.5" real Colt uppers were like 3x what I paid for the 11.5" I ended up with) is one of the handiest and fun guns I have ever owned.
Of course, since that time, I have learned a lot and now realize that you could make yourself up a Colt SMG by buying an M16 registered receiver and adding a 10.5" barreled 9mm upper, 9mm hammer, and a mag block.
Also FWIW, I don't think a semi-auto MP5 is in the same league with the AR15in 9mm. I have never handled one, but I have handled quite a few select fire MP5s. IMO, the AR15 is the better platform. Right out of the box it has far better sights to begin with. However, since mine is a flat top, I have an Aimpoint ML3 on mine.
chakup
Member
I'll agree with 444, even though I don't have mine yet. SBR paperwork is going through. I'll probably 10.5" barrel, may go even shorter though since a can will be hanging off the end which will add some length. yeah it cost more up front. But it looks better and I have thousands of options.
Domino
Member
The Kel-Tec Sub 2000 is going to have most utility and greatest adaptabilty when compared to its competion. Its also at least (if not more) as accurate as the most expensive 9mm carbine such as an AR or MP5 clone. Its price, mobility, magazine compatibility, accuracy, and simplicity are what sold me on mine of which I couldn't be happier with. It is a perfect big brother to my Glock 19.
Here is my comparison list...
Hi-Point 995 - cheap, effective, durable, and accurate. Can't be beat for the money
Kel Tec S2K - moderately priced, highly effective and adaptable. A must for those who have a pistol in which it shares magazines.
Ruger PC9 - Not Cheap, very well built, durable, conventional design. Great companion for a P series pistol.
Beretta Storm CX4 - Not Cheap, nice controls, good ergonomics, ambidextrious. Great combo for a 92 series pistol.
Ar-15 9mm - expensive, great ergonomics. You get what you pay for. It isn't going to beat its competion noticibly in accuracy or performance.
MP5 Clone - expensive, great ergonmics and feel. A must for those who have to have an MP5, but again it won't outperform a Hi-point or Kel-Tec.
Its all about what you want.
Here is my comparison list...
Hi-Point 995 - cheap, effective, durable, and accurate. Can't be beat for the money
Kel Tec S2K - moderately priced, highly effective and adaptable. A must for those who have a pistol in which it shares magazines.
Ruger PC9 - Not Cheap, very well built, durable, conventional design. Great companion for a P series pistol.
Beretta Storm CX4 - Not Cheap, nice controls, good ergonomics, ambidextrious. Great combo for a 92 series pistol.
Ar-15 9mm - expensive, great ergonomics. You get what you pay for. It isn't going to beat its competion noticibly in accuracy or performance.
MP5 Clone - expensive, great ergonmics and feel. A must for those who have to have an MP5, but again it won't outperform a Hi-point or Kel-Tec.
Its all about what you want.
Stiletto Null
Member
I really don't like the CX4 storm. It's just awkward for me.
Another Hi-Point vote here.
Another Hi-Point vote here.
- Status