Medusa
Member
Another vote to MP-5 style gun, or Steyr TMP
Good 9MM carbine?
- Thread starter MR.G
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Re: AR15 in 9mm
I forgot to mention that there are also Beta C mags (100 round drums) being currently manufactured for the Colt 9mm.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/BETA-CCS900.html
These are also available for the HK MP5 SMG. I have no reason to believe they wouldn't work in a semi-auto clone. http://www.impactguns.com/store/BETA-MHM901.html
Accessory items like this are one big benefit of going with a mainstream weapons platform.
Holy Christ I see they are coming out with a Beta mag for the M1A !!!!
How much does an M1A with a loaded 100 round drum weigh ??????????????
EDIT: The loaded mag weighs 10.5 pounds PLUS the rifle !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I forgot to mention that there are also Beta C mags (100 round drums) being currently manufactured for the Colt 9mm.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/BETA-CCS900.html
These are also available for the HK MP5 SMG. I have no reason to believe they wouldn't work in a semi-auto clone. http://www.impactguns.com/store/BETA-MHM901.html
Accessory items like this are one big benefit of going with a mainstream weapons platform.
Holy Christ I see they are coming out with a Beta mag for the M1A !!!!
How much does an M1A with a loaded 100 round drum weigh ??????????????
EDIT: The loaded mag weighs 10.5 pounds PLUS the rifle !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I got the beretta storm 2 weeks ago. I haven't put a lot of trigger time in with it yet, but so far i love the thing. I have to admit that i didn't care for its' looks at all when i first saw it, but then i had an opportunity to handle & fire one...Sold! This thing shoots better than I do, if you know what i mean. Expensive? yea, i suppose, but it's all relative to what you want and what you like, right? I had tried the kel-tec and the ruger, and the keltec didn't 'fit' me right, while i couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from inside the barn with the ruger. The beretta gave me good fit & accuracy which filled the want & like catagories, ( the looks of it are slowly growing on me...lol) and came in at a price i was more willing to pay as compared to an AR for example. So far it's been a win-win situation.
smince
Member.
Manedwolf
member
Another vote for the Kel-Tec. Not only is it fun, accurate and inexpensive, but it FOLDS, adding a whole other dimension of usefulness.
You can carry it in any laptop bag that fits a 17" laptop. You can stuff it into a backpack, or even a rolled-up sleeping bag, should you find yourself in a SHTF situation where officious FEMA sorts or others "won't allow guns" past a checkpoint or into an evacuation shelter. You are NOT going to be allowed to walk into a shelter/boat/etc...with an AR. The Kel-Tec can be kept small till needed.
I like it.
You can carry it in any laptop bag that fits a 17" laptop. You can stuff it into a backpack, or even a rolled-up sleeping bag, should you find yourself in a SHTF situation where officious FEMA sorts or others "won't allow guns" past a checkpoint or into an evacuation shelter. You are NOT going to be allowed to walk into a shelter/boat/etc...with an AR. The Kel-Tec can be kept small till needed.
I like it.
444,
I agree with this:
If I can afford the best, I buy the best. .
In my youth, I shopped for bargains, not value. That was fun, but I ended up with a bunch of guns of which brought me more satisfaction in buying than owning
I have bought a lot of better firearms also, and I can't ever say I thought "You know I could have bought two or three of this or that."
Remember, it isn't considered cheating if you hold off and save up to buy something better than a Hi-Point. I am satisfied with my Hi-Point, but if I had it to do over again, I would have bided my time, watched my pennies, and have a Kahr M1 Carbine instead.
I agree with this:
If I can afford the best, I buy the best. .
In my youth, I shopped for bargains, not value. That was fun, but I ended up with a bunch of guns of which brought me more satisfaction in buying than owning
I have bought a lot of better firearms also, and I can't ever say I thought "You know I could have bought two or three of this or that."
Remember, it isn't considered cheating if you hold off and save up to buy something better than a Hi-Point. I am satisfied with my Hi-Point, but if I had it to do over again, I would have bided my time, watched my pennies, and have a Kahr M1 Carbine instead.
Zach S
Member
I dont know what the clones run, but I havent seen an HK94 for under two and a half grand in a long time. That's enough for me to build two 9mm AR15s, and mine is almost as much fun as an MP5. Of course the biggest part about that is the fact that my AR is more southpaw friendly.
I dont know what the clones run, but I havent seen an HK94 for under two and a half grand in a long time.
Zach S, Atlantic Firearms has them starting ~$1100. Not my first choice, but neither is the AR. I don't want to sink a ton into a pistol caliber carbine unless it's full auto capable or high capacity magnum (love to have a Deerfield with a 20 round mag).
jmm
Zach S, Atlantic Firearms has them starting ~$1100. Not my first choice, but neither is the AR. I don't want to sink a ton into a pistol caliber carbine unless it's full auto capable or high capacity magnum (love to have a Deerfield with a 20 round mag).
jmm
Kel-Tec, people. Kel-Tec.
For all the reasons Manedwolf stated. And the price is soooo right. Get a Sub 2000 that takes Glock 17 magazines. Plus - you can buy a few cheap, fun goodies to hang on it that don't increase the bulk to any noticable degree.
Honestly, it's a no-brainer.
For all the reasons Manedwolf stated. And the price is soooo right. Get a Sub 2000 that takes Glock 17 magazines. Plus - you can buy a few cheap, fun goodies to hang on it that don't increase the bulk to any noticable degree.
Honestly, it's a no-brainer.
Stiletto Null
Member
Oh yeah...for the price of a Storm, you can bump up to a Kel-Tec SU-16. But that's OT.
BillinNH
Member
I have some experience with some of the guns in question so I will weigh in.
First thing to do with any firearm purchase is to try and identify exactly what type of shooting you intend to do with it and what you expect out of it.
9mm carbines are great shooting fun with the cheepest ammo in centerfire shooting. I was mostly interested in shooting an indoor plate match that was run once a month for pistol caliber carbines .I had owned the KT for a while,crazy briefcase gun ,I bought it during the AWB set for the beretta mags as they were available. Pretty good shooting,sights are pretty good,but difficult to adjust. I had some dificulty getting a proper cheek weld ,had to really mash my cheek to get on the sights. Quite a few friends shot this gun and didn't have the problem I did so I guess I have a funny shape head. more recoil than one would imagine, not painfull but difficult to keep on the sights in rapid-fire. As discussed all you get with this gun is iron sights,a scope would be a project.
I bought a new Ruger. surpriseingly heavy (bad to tote around,good to shoot) great sights,and a nasty heavy trigger. Mine went back to Ruger and the trigger came back better but still heavy. Gunsmith went through it an it was slightly better but still very heavy.Best the trigger ever got was about 9 lbs
Off the bench if you really worked the trigger pull it was quite accurate but offhand the trigger yanked shots all over the place.
I allready had AR's and all the sighting systems to go with them so when I found an Olympic arms 9mm upper used with stacks of mags and toys I jumped at it and never looked back. The Oly has worked well for me,I have the A2 with sten mags and a mag block. 32rounds ! the mags are a stinker to load so I chopped the springs,they sill load hard but at $4 each I have a stack that I load at home to save me from fighting with them when I am at the range. If I were buying new I would get the flatop Oly and set it up for glock mags.
Most of the folks shooting the pistol cal plate shoot ended up shooting AR's or berettas. A few would show with something odd but most were not holding up against the AR's and the Beretta's
One guy shot some kind of HK but he had it set as a SBR and had the drop in class III trigger group ,he also had a removeable can, Needless to say with all the tax stamps and so forth he had $20,000 invested in the whole package! Now that was a fun gun to plink with !
First thing to do with any firearm purchase is to try and identify exactly what type of shooting you intend to do with it and what you expect out of it.
9mm carbines are great shooting fun with the cheepest ammo in centerfire shooting. I was mostly interested in shooting an indoor plate match that was run once a month for pistol caliber carbines .I had owned the KT for a while,crazy briefcase gun ,I bought it during the AWB set for the beretta mags as they were available. Pretty good shooting,sights are pretty good,but difficult to adjust. I had some dificulty getting a proper cheek weld ,had to really mash my cheek to get on the sights. Quite a few friends shot this gun and didn't have the problem I did so I guess I have a funny shape head. more recoil than one would imagine, not painfull but difficult to keep on the sights in rapid-fire. As discussed all you get with this gun is iron sights,a scope would be a project.
I bought a new Ruger. surpriseingly heavy (bad to tote around,good to shoot) great sights,and a nasty heavy trigger. Mine went back to Ruger and the trigger came back better but still heavy. Gunsmith went through it an it was slightly better but still very heavy.Best the trigger ever got was about 9 lbs
Off the bench if you really worked the trigger pull it was quite accurate but offhand the trigger yanked shots all over the place.
I allready had AR's and all the sighting systems to go with them so when I found an Olympic arms 9mm upper used with stacks of mags and toys I jumped at it and never looked back. The Oly has worked well for me,I have the A2 with sten mags and a mag block. 32rounds ! the mags are a stinker to load so I chopped the springs,they sill load hard but at $4 each I have a stack that I load at home to save me from fighting with them when I am at the range. If I were buying new I would get the flatop Oly and set it up for glock mags.
Most of the folks shooting the pistol cal plate shoot ended up shooting AR's or berettas. A few would show with something odd but most were not holding up against the AR's and the Beretta's
One guy shot some kind of HK but he had it set as a SBR and had the drop in class III trigger group ,he also had a removeable can, Needless to say with all the tax stamps and so forth he had $20,000 invested in the whole package! Now that was a fun gun to plink with !
You've all neglected to mention the venerable Uzi.
In semi-automatic form, it's heavy, clunky, expensive, and my absolute favorite 9mm carbine to shoot despite these flaws.
Fun has to be factored in when dealing with 9mm carbines IMO.
I liked my first so much I bought two.
Now I wait for the Form 1 to come back.
In semi-automatic form, it's heavy, clunky, expensive, and my absolute favorite 9mm carbine to shoot despite these flaws.
Fun has to be factored in when dealing with 9mm carbines IMO.
I liked my first so much I bought two.
Now I wait for the Form 1 to come back.
jjohnson
Member
Marlin Camp 9
I have one of the discontinued Camp 9's and like it. It handles like a heavier version of a Ruger 10/22, uses S&W 59 mags (which I also have a bunch of) and it takes a red dot scope like a natural. IF you get one at a gun show or something, just remember, look up Widener's for a replacement recoil buffer (the Marlin factory one broke at 500 rounds or so) and get a Wolff recoil spring suited to whatever load you want to use. Mine was going to beat itself to death between a brittle buffer and an inadequate spring. Luckily, you can get some parts. It's NOT a replacement for the AR15, but hey, it was a lot cheaper. Mine groups really well at 50 yards, and with a red dot sight, it's a real slick setup for quick shots. Some of the other carbines are fine - it's a good excuse to get one if you already have a pile of compatible pistol magazines lying around. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Good luck.
I have one of the discontinued Camp 9's and like it. It handles like a heavier version of a Ruger 10/22, uses S&W 59 mags (which I also have a bunch of) and it takes a red dot scope like a natural. IF you get one at a gun show or something, just remember, look up Widener's for a replacement recoil buffer (the Marlin factory one broke at 500 rounds or so) and get a Wolff recoil spring suited to whatever load you want to use. Mine was going to beat itself to death between a brittle buffer and an inadequate spring. Luckily, you can get some parts. It's NOT a replacement for the AR15, but hey, it was a lot cheaper. Mine groups really well at 50 yards, and with a red dot sight, it's a real slick setup for quick shots. Some of the other carbines are fine - it's a good excuse to get one if you already have a pile of compatible pistol magazines lying around. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Good luck.
Manedwolf
member
The primary reason for my suggestion is that the original poster mentioned "defense". And to me, yeah, the $1200 Kahr carbine might be fun, as might some others... but if it comes to an actual defense or SHTF situation, the last you'll see of that $$$ carbine is it leaving in the hands of an investigator to MAYBE be returned in the first case, or in the second, leaving in the hands of a stormtrooper-sort of cop or other official at a checkpoint, never to be seen again.
In the first instance, the Kel-Tec isn't much over $200. In the second, because it folds, you could easily hide it and wouldn't be left defenseless.
If there's a New Orleans 2 in your area for some reason, any long gun you're wandering around with will be a magnet for the wrong sort of attention and you'll likely lose it. The kel-tec is 16 and a half inches long when folded.
In the first instance, the Kel-Tec isn't much over $200. In the second, because it folds, you could easily hide it and wouldn't be left defenseless.
If there's a New Orleans 2 in your area for some reason, any long gun you're wandering around with will be a magnet for the wrong sort of attention and you'll likely lose it. The kel-tec is 16 and a half inches long when folded.
Then get the best you can afford with a track record. If that's a Kel-tec, so be it. Practice, hope, and prepare. I personally won't be bringing a 9mm carbine to a defensive situation if I have a choice, but different people perceive different needs.
I didn't realize Kahr was making Uzis now.
It's a $550 Vector.
Funny. I've kept my firearms after incidents here, as state law requires - unless I'm charged with a felony. Miraculously, through judicious and legal use of force, I have never been charged with one.
As far as stormtroopers and checkpoints, el-cheapo or el-expensivo carbines aren't going to help you there in that hypothetical situation. When pink ninjas drop from the lunar surface, they will be of dubious need too.
And the Uzi is similarly sized when the barrel is removed with a simple unscrewing operation. Oops.
I think it is flawed thinking to purposely buy and use a defensive firearm based on how much you would lose ($) if it was taken as evidence. What more important use for a firearm could their be other than defending your own life from lethal force ? It seems silly to me to hold back your good guns for shooting beer cans and choose the cheapest one to defend your life. How much is your life worth ?
None of the recent posts acknowledge that none of the other Kel-Tec owners have mentioned the S2K as being a throwaway gun. I've only got a few hundred rounds through my Sub, but it has been flawless so far (regardless of the Glock magazine I've used 10, 17 or 33 rounders). Most people who like the Kel-Tec, like it because of the design and the fact that it works. Price was mentioned only as a secondary advantage. Being happy with a $1000+ pistol caliber carbine is fine, but I don't think being happy with a $250 9mm carbine (that works) is anything to be looked down upon. Price seems to make some people too proud. Can anyone tell me how any of the AR's, etc., carbines are functionally superior to a Kel-Tec sub gun that works flawlessly (as most of them seem to do)?
I've fired a friend's on numerous occasions. I do not like the charging handle in particular, and as a whole, the gun feels 'cheap' to me in my hands in a way that other budget guns do not.
It doesn't discount that it works for you - and the irony here is most of the people who are mentioning alternatives aren't saying the product is a throwaway gun - that's a straw man you've invented.
That said, I'll welcome your review when you hit, say, 10k rounds fired through the gun and have had it a few years. If you're still extremely happy then, you've found the gun for you.
rfurtcamp,
I'm sure that you realize that my post was not specifically directed toward your comments, but thanks for the arrogant lecture about round counts anyway.
Actually it was this line that prompted my response.
Looking over my last post, I guess that I should change my first statement from "None of the recent posts..." to a more accurate, "Some of the posts in this thread..." seem more concerned with the price of a firearm. Some may even discount pretty serviceable guns because they do not meet their price point.
Still, if you'd like to answer my question, I'd be interested in reading your answer.
I'm sure that you realize that my post was not specifically directed toward your comments, but thanks for the arrogant lecture about round counts anyway.
Actually it was this line that prompted my response.
Looking over my last post, I guess that I should change my first statement from "None of the recent posts..." to a more accurate, "Some of the posts in this thread..." seem more concerned with the price of a firearm. Some may even discount pretty serviceable guns because they do not meet their price point.
Still, if you'd like to answer my question, I'd be interested in reading your answer.
Functionally superior is simple: The AR, MP5 platform (and even decent clones), Uzi, and other military-derived designs have been stress and torture tested past a "few hundred" rounds.
That's where the "arrogance" comes in - I want a gun I know for a fact will fire when I need it to not just in an emergency tomorrow, but twenty emergencies from now thirty years down the road. I want a lifetime gun.
The HKs, ARs, Uzis, and the like are that gun - because of the track record.
This isn't to say that those who jumped on the HK bandwagon when they were first released are any different than you are now - except for the milspec part, anyway - they're willing to try new things to achieve their goal. Perhaps the Beretta Storm or the Kel-tec will become modern classics. That's why I said get back to me in a few years and a few thousand rounds.
I'm old-fashioned in that I want defense guns I know for a fact will work, that spare parts are plentiful, that I or any other competent gunsmith can work on without incident, and have served well in their intended purpose in the defense of the lives of their owners.
The Kel-tec, as much as I hate to keep driving the point home, wasn't designed or tested to this point: it's a sporting firearm, not a defensive one.
Perhaps it will excel in the latter role. Perhaps it will not. I'm not going to roll the dice when it just doesn't feel like a gun I want to own.
Arrogance ? Yeah, I think you are guilty.
" It seems silly to me to hold back your good guns for shooting beer cans and choose the cheapest one to defend your life. How much is your life worth ? "
"And to me, yeah, the $1200 Kahr carbine might be fun, as might some others... but if it comes to an actual defense or SHTF situation, the last you'll see of that $$$ carbine is it leaving in the hands of an investigator to MAYBE be returned in the first case, or in the second, leaving in the hands of a stormtrooper-sort of cop or other official at a checkpoint, never to be seen again. "
Reading is fundamental. Maybe you should read all the posts in this thread before you jump to conslusions.
Maybe a little too much coffee this evening ?
If you buy a gun because you have weighed all the options and decided it was the best gun for your needs, then IMO it is flawed logic to NOT use that guy because you are worried about losing a few hundred dollars if it is seized as evidence. I don't care what kind of gun we are talking about.
" It seems silly to me to hold back your good guns for shooting beer cans and choose the cheapest one to defend your life. How much is your life worth ? "
"And to me, yeah, the $1200 Kahr carbine might be fun, as might some others... but if it comes to an actual defense or SHTF situation, the last you'll see of that $$$ carbine is it leaving in the hands of an investigator to MAYBE be returned in the first case, or in the second, leaving in the hands of a stormtrooper-sort of cop or other official at a checkpoint, never to be seen again. "
Reading is fundamental. Maybe you should read all the posts in this thread before you jump to conslusions.
Maybe a little too much coffee this evening ?
If you buy a gun because you have weighed all the options and decided it was the best gun for your needs, then IMO it is flawed logic to NOT use that guy because you are worried about losing a few hundred dollars if it is seized as evidence. I don't care what kind of gun we are talking about.
rfurtkamp,
I can understand this, and I will also agree that military weapons that have been tested over a period of years are better for defensive purposes. That said, I don't think your earlier response specifically addressed my point of view, that if a firearm works 100% of the time that it shouldn't be discounted from use simply because they are more economical in price. Obviously all firearms were new once upon a time, and many of them also met with stiff resistence from individuals who were unwilling to try new things. Historically, opposition to many new military tools was common. Such a mentality was also the reason that the military of more than one country has been caught unprepared for new wars. Make no mistake, I’d consider myself foolish to put the Kel-Tec into this category of weaponry.
I would like to apologize for my arrogant response. The comment on round count irritated my slightly because such things are obvious to any experienced shooter. In no way did I ever attempt to say that my newly manufactured Kel-Tec has been proven over the long term. What I said was that it has been 100% so far, and I found it peculiar that some people will jump to conclusions about the serviceability of a firearm based primarily on price. Yes, you most often get what you pay for, but occasionally you find a product that works well regardless of price paid. So far, my Kel-Tec has been that kind of purchase for me.
444,
I made some generalizations that should have been directed specifically to you.
I can understand this, and I will also agree that military weapons that have been tested over a period of years are better for defensive purposes. That said, I don't think your earlier response specifically addressed my point of view, that if a firearm works 100% of the time that it shouldn't be discounted from use simply because they are more economical in price. Obviously all firearms were new once upon a time, and many of them also met with stiff resistence from individuals who were unwilling to try new things. Historically, opposition to many new military tools was common. Such a mentality was also the reason that the military of more than one country has been caught unprepared for new wars. Make no mistake, I’d consider myself foolish to put the Kel-Tec into this category of weaponry.
I would like to apologize for my arrogant response. The comment on round count irritated my slightly because such things are obvious to any experienced shooter. In no way did I ever attempt to say that my newly manufactured Kel-Tec has been proven over the long term. What I said was that it has been 100% so far, and I found it peculiar that some people will jump to conclusions about the serviceability of a firearm based primarily on price. Yes, you most often get what you pay for, but occasionally you find a product that works well regardless of price paid. So far, my Kel-Tec has been that kind of purchase for me.
444,
I made some generalizations that should have been directed specifically to you.
Look, I love to argue. When someone actually wants to discuss a topic instead of just saying "I got one and I love mine", I jump at the chance to discuss it. I think you are falling into the trap of taking this all too seriously.
"You come across as more of a braggart, than as someone trying to share knowledge."
Well, I am not sure how to respond to that. I provided my opinion and I made it clear how I came to the conclusions (my personal experience with three different 9mm carbines). I provided links to the products I was talking about so you could look into the matter further if you really were interested. . If that isn't sharing knowlege, I don't know what is. Who else on this thread provided any links to the information you specifically asked for ? To me, that is sharing knowlege but I guess you don't ? When I make a post, I try to give a rationale as to why I feel the way I do. And, since I am arrogant, I will say that very few of the posts you read on this board make any effort at listing the experience or research that they used to come up with their conclusions.
"continually define carbines which cost less as "cheap", and seem to believe that if a gun is affordable that it can not be trusted to work."
If you go way back to the beginning of this thread you will see that I posted that I own a Hi-Point which is cheaper than your KelTec. I also posted that I didn't have anything bad to say about it. I didn't specifically address YOUR gun because I have never owned or fired one. Again, when I post a comment I usually post my personal experience with the product instead of just repeating something I read or something I heard. If this is arrogance, then OK, I am arrogant. For all I know the KelTec Carbine is the greatest thing in the world but I don't know because I have zero experience with it. If it makes you feel better I do own a KelTec P11 and whatever they call the little .32: but, I know nothing about the carbine.
"choose the cheapest one to defend your life. "
Again, you are quoting me out of context. I was talking about the comment of NOT using your chosen carbine for self defense for fear it might be seized as evidence. I disagree with that position. Therefore I disagree with choosing the cheapest carbine to defend your life: I think you should use the carbine you believe is the best to defend your life cost be damned. I don't care if it is a Hi-Point, Kel-Tec, Ruger, Beretta, or something from Mars, if you chose it based on careful research and you shot it enough to gain confidence with it, then that is what you need to grab if your life is on the line. If it gets confiscated then at least you are alive to worry about it. The idea of putting your "good" guns away and choosing something cheap just in case it gets confiscated IMO is a mistake.
I explained this in my last post.
"I'm just stating the fact that I personally prefer them to firearms that crap where they eat, and require tweaking to keep them up and running. "
Once again, if you actually read my response to your questions, you would see that the 9mm AR15 operates by blowback (just like every other carbine in this thread including your KelTec) and NOT direct impingement. These expressions sound cute, but doesn't apply. There is no gas system.
Not that this matters to the discussion but none of my AR15s require any tweaking to run. Again, if you read what I wrote I said that the Colt factory magazines run flawlessly. BUT, two different aftermarket magazines I tried don't work as well. If choosing good reliable magazines is tweaking then I guess you got me.
"You come across as more of a braggart, than as someone trying to share knowledge."
Well, I am not sure how to respond to that. I provided my opinion and I made it clear how I came to the conclusions (my personal experience with three different 9mm carbines). I provided links to the products I was talking about so you could look into the matter further if you really were interested. . If that isn't sharing knowlege, I don't know what is. Who else on this thread provided any links to the information you specifically asked for ? To me, that is sharing knowlege but I guess you don't ? When I make a post, I try to give a rationale as to why I feel the way I do. And, since I am arrogant, I will say that very few of the posts you read on this board make any effort at listing the experience or research that they used to come up with their conclusions.
"continually define carbines which cost less as "cheap", and seem to believe that if a gun is affordable that it can not be trusted to work."
If you go way back to the beginning of this thread you will see that I posted that I own a Hi-Point which is cheaper than your KelTec. I also posted that I didn't have anything bad to say about it. I didn't specifically address YOUR gun because I have never owned or fired one. Again, when I post a comment I usually post my personal experience with the product instead of just repeating something I read or something I heard. If this is arrogance, then OK, I am arrogant. For all I know the KelTec Carbine is the greatest thing in the world but I don't know because I have zero experience with it. If it makes you feel better I do own a KelTec P11 and whatever they call the little .32: but, I know nothing about the carbine.
"choose the cheapest one to defend your life. "
Again, you are quoting me out of context. I was talking about the comment of NOT using your chosen carbine for self defense for fear it might be seized as evidence. I disagree with that position. Therefore I disagree with choosing the cheapest carbine to defend your life: I think you should use the carbine you believe is the best to defend your life cost be damned. I don't care if it is a Hi-Point, Kel-Tec, Ruger, Beretta, or something from Mars, if you chose it based on careful research and you shot it enough to gain confidence with it, then that is what you need to grab if your life is on the line. If it gets confiscated then at least you are alive to worry about it. The idea of putting your "good" guns away and choosing something cheap just in case it gets confiscated IMO is a mistake.
I explained this in my last post.
"I'm just stating the fact that I personally prefer them to firearms that crap where they eat, and require tweaking to keep them up and running. "
Once again, if you actually read my response to your questions, you would see that the 9mm AR15 operates by blowback (just like every other carbine in this thread including your KelTec) and NOT direct impingement. These expressions sound cute, but doesn't apply. There is no gas system.
Not that this matters to the discussion but none of my AR15s require any tweaking to run. Again, if you read what I wrote I said that the Colt factory magazines run flawlessly. BUT, two different aftermarket magazines I tried don't work as well. If choosing good reliable magazines is tweaking then I guess you got me.
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