Matt, we are going around in circles, under Federal law, C&R handguns can't be purchased by anyone under 21. I believe RS3RS hasn't been totally truthful in his posts, and it's probably best that he doesn't answer my questions. Enjoyed your posts, good night.
Good C&R Pistol for pocket carry
- Thread starter RS3RS
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Cane - an older relative was feeling nice to me, and bought me this nice C&R 1911 and give it to me as a gift. 
A few days before said 1911 was picked up, I bought a box of .45 ACP ammo from said relative for the sum of $795. Was feeling quite generous about it. All is well and legal. The 1911 was a gift.
You don't seem to understand the situation. A C&R handgun CAN BE PURCHASED BY A PERSON UNDER 21. You do NOT have to be 21. It just can't be bought from an FFL. An individual can buy the gun, and sell it to me with ZERO legal issues, so long as it is C&R. It is a state loophole, not a federal one.
Farthermore, this thread is asking for a good recommendation for a pocket carry C&R handgun. I did NOT start this thread seeking "Legal advice from cane". Please stop trolling me and my thread, unless you have useful advice regarding which C&R pistol should be used for pocket carry.
A few days before said 1911 was picked up, I bought a box of .45 ACP ammo from said relative for the sum of $795. Was feeling quite generous about it. All is well and legal. The 1911 was a gift.You don't seem to understand the situation. A C&R handgun CAN BE PURCHASED BY A PERSON UNDER 21. You do NOT have to be 21. It just can't be bought from an FFL. An individual can buy the gun, and sell it to me with ZERO legal issues, so long as it is C&R. It is a state loophole, not a federal one.
Farthermore, this thread is asking for a good recommendation for a pocket carry C&R handgun. I did NOT start this thread seeking "Legal advice from cane". Please stop trolling me and my thread, unless you have useful advice regarding which C&R pistol should be used for pocket carry.
Come on RS3RS, you said in your thread "Falty 1911?-Advice, at 12:02 AM on 4-22-06 that you paid for the 1911 with a money order. You have stated that YOU bought it, and then that your "older relative" bought it for you. Now the story about the $795 box of ammo, having trouble keeping your story straight? Let's quit before you dig yourself into a deeper hole.
Manedwolf
member
If that doesn't sound like a strawman, I don't know what does...
BATF might be horrible bureaucrats, but they're not stupid.
Have you ever heard of "simplicity's sake"? It doesn't matter if the people know the specifics regarding how the 1911 was paid for, I was looking for technical advice. Sometime's it's a whole lot easier to say "I paid via MO" than "The older relative that bought this 1911 for me, as a gift, because of the C&R loophole in Chapter 571 in the Missouri state statutes paid using a money order". There's a line where some things simply aren't anyone's business. (You've crossed that line
)You're right, I have learned more than I need, or care to about your previous criminal activity. It would appear from your questions about smaller C&R pistols that you intend to illegially purchase one through another strawman deal using your "older relative" I would encourage you not to break federal firearm laws and wait until you are 21 to legally purchase a handgun.
chaim
Member
Legal gift v. illegal strawman purchase.
From my understanding it is legal to buy a gun as a gift but to do so you must buy it with your own money with no intention of being reimbursed in any way. I can buy a (insert name of gun) at the gunshop and give it to my brother assuming he can legally possess said gun (he can legally own whatever he wants) even if I bought it with giving it away in mind. I have to have paid for it, and my brother cannot reimburse me. I can also chose to give away a gun I've owned for several years as well, though in that case (a gun I bought with the intention of keeping it myself) I also have the option to sell so long as I follow state and federal law- i.e. the very common "private transfer".
An illegal strawman purchase is when you directly (or indirectly) give someone the money to buy a gun for you. Buying a gun on the net, sending the MO yourself, and having someone else pick it up would most definately be a strawman purchase. Having them buy the gun, then paying nearly $800 for a box of ammo would most probably count as well.
Of course I'm not a lawyer so if you want legal advice, seek counsel. However, I am an informed gun owner.
Since the thread was started by someone who is apparently asking us for help picking a gun to buy illegally I wonder how long until it is locked since I'm pretty sure it is not the high road to advocate criminal activity.
From my understanding it is legal to buy a gun as a gift but to do so you must buy it with your own money with no intention of being reimbursed in any way. I can buy a (insert name of gun) at the gunshop and give it to my brother assuming he can legally possess said gun (he can legally own whatever he wants) even if I bought it with giving it away in mind. I have to have paid for it, and my brother cannot reimburse me. I can also chose to give away a gun I've owned for several years as well, though in that case (a gun I bought with the intention of keeping it myself) I also have the option to sell so long as I follow state and federal law- i.e. the very common "private transfer".
An illegal strawman purchase is when you directly (or indirectly) give someone the money to buy a gun for you. Buying a gun on the net, sending the MO yourself, and having someone else pick it up would most definately be a strawman purchase. Having them buy the gun, then paying nearly $800 for a box of ammo would most probably count as well.
Of course I'm not a lawyer so if you want legal advice, seek counsel. However, I am an informed gun owner.
Since the thread was started by someone who is apparently asking us for help picking a gun to buy illegally I wonder how long until it is locked since I'm pretty sure it is not the high road to advocate criminal activity.
Let me talk about strawman purchases for a minute. First off, I am neither a FFL nor a lawyer.
I have seen a gun going for an incredible bargin at a pawn shop. Guy didn't know what he had. I bought it. Two months later I sold it. The person I sold it to happened to have the handy little MN 'permit to purchase handgun/assault type rifle' so I know he was above board. This, provided I don't do it enough to need a FFL, is totally legal. In the above example, it was a 2 month window. To my knowledge, there is no required waiting period between purchase and resale.
I've also know a guy who was hot for pre 64 winchesters, especially ones from the mid 50's. If I happen to stumble upon one priced cheaply enough, I may well buy it, he has got a winchester model 52 I think is sweet as all hell, the 64 would be good 'trade bait'. I don't see anythign wrong with that, as we would each make private sales to eachother for each gun, all applicable laws for private sales will be followed.
I must note that in both of these cases, I have not received any money beforehand, nor any sort of ironclad contract. If my friend has to buy a new furnace for his house, he may well not want to buy the pre 64 off of me, he doesn't have the spare cash. That's okay, I'll try to buy his model 52 .22LR and still be happy, selling off the pre 64 someday, or maybe not, maybe keep it myself.
I've called a FFL to price check transfer fees for gunbroker type stuff. He asked what I was buying, because he wanted a chance to undercut his website competition (two basement FFLers, probably can get the same type of makarov or somesuch, hence he could charge me the same price as the posting, i save shipping and transfer fee, he gets sale)
Now, you can also buy a handgun through a FFL and give it as a gift. Legal, except it is my understanding that if you gift a firearm to a felon who cannot legally possess firearms that is still going to be viewed as a straw purchase.
It seems to me when you fill out the forms for transfer or purchase, you don't say you are purchasing the firearm yourself FOREVER. I don't know of any law that gives me a period of time I must keep the gun before I can legally sell it. Now I, as the owner, can choose to sell it. Then all state and federal laws kick in, regardless of weather it was owned 5 days or 5 years.
Seems to me his uncle did the same thing. Made a legal sale of a firearm he had in his personal collection. As long as the poster didn't give uncle the money beforehand. Now if it turns out that the recipeint could not legally own the gun, because he is a felon, crazy, illegal alien, or whatever, all those laws still apply, regardless of how long the uncle had gun in his collection before he sold it.
edit. I now see that you 'purchased' ammunition from him at a huge cost beforehand. This is what is going to get you into trouble.
I have seen a gun going for an incredible bargin at a pawn shop. Guy didn't know what he had. I bought it. Two months later I sold it. The person I sold it to happened to have the handy little MN 'permit to purchase handgun/assault type rifle' so I know he was above board. This, provided I don't do it enough to need a FFL, is totally legal. In the above example, it was a 2 month window. To my knowledge, there is no required waiting period between purchase and resale.
I've also know a guy who was hot for pre 64 winchesters, especially ones from the mid 50's. If I happen to stumble upon one priced cheaply enough, I may well buy it, he has got a winchester model 52 I think is sweet as all hell, the 64 would be good 'trade bait'. I don't see anythign wrong with that, as we would each make private sales to eachother for each gun, all applicable laws for private sales will be followed.
I must note that in both of these cases, I have not received any money beforehand, nor any sort of ironclad contract. If my friend has to buy a new furnace for his house, he may well not want to buy the pre 64 off of me, he doesn't have the spare cash. That's okay, I'll try to buy his model 52 .22LR and still be happy, selling off the pre 64 someday, or maybe not, maybe keep it myself.
I've called a FFL to price check transfer fees for gunbroker type stuff. He asked what I was buying, because he wanted a chance to undercut his website competition (two basement FFLers, probably can get the same type of makarov or somesuch, hence he could charge me the same price as the posting, i save shipping and transfer fee, he gets sale)
Now, you can also buy a handgun through a FFL and give it as a gift. Legal, except it is my understanding that if you gift a firearm to a felon who cannot legally possess firearms that is still going to be viewed as a straw purchase.
It seems to me when you fill out the forms for transfer or purchase, you don't say you are purchasing the firearm yourself FOREVER. I don't know of any law that gives me a period of time I must keep the gun before I can legally sell it. Now I, as the owner, can choose to sell it. Then all state and federal laws kick in, regardless of weather it was owned 5 days or 5 years.
Seems to me his uncle did the same thing. Made a legal sale of a firearm he had in his personal collection. As long as the poster didn't give uncle the money beforehand. Now if it turns out that the recipeint could not legally own the gun, because he is a felon, crazy, illegal alien, or whatever, all those laws still apply, regardless of how long the uncle had gun in his collection before he sold it.
edit. I now see that you 'purchased' ammunition from him at a huge cost beforehand. This is what is going to get you into trouble.
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