Good Guy (former firefighter) with Gun Stops Armed Man in Missouri Walmart

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Aim1

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Not sure what the suspects plan was, he was walking around with a loaded AR15 it seems but didn’t shoot anyone. He might have been just attempting to shock people because he is an idiot.

Missouri doesn’t prohibit open carry apparently and some can get permits for it.

From another article:

“In Missouri, there isn't a statute that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm and certain permit holders are explicitly allowed to open carry, according to the Giffords Law Center. People with a valid concealed carry permit, who are lawfully carrying a firearm may briefly openly display the firearm.”

Doesn’t appear this guy met the definition of open carry. Either way, good thing this guy was here to stop this nonsense. This certainly doesn’t help open carry advocates.


44CCBB4D-A011-4D84-B89D-2E09920A9AA5.jpeg


https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/08/08/good-guy-with-gun-stops-armed-man-in-missouri-walmart/
 
I tend to think with only 100 rounds of ammo he was not intending any violence. Seems he’d have more if he was planning something bad.

If he was trying to make some sort of pro 2A point, he chose a poor time to do so.
 
He chose the perfect time. Any other time and he'd be ignored.

I am not an OC activist, but either carrying a rifle in public is lawful or it isn't. Your opinion about the good or bad taste or what you think a person represents is not a legal standard that can be morally enforced upon this non-violent man under the threat of violence and bonds.
 
I can OC in my state but Im not into that myself nor does it bother me to see it when others do. But the media will spin this more as a government employee stopping an armed nutjob (i.e. typical gun owner). This wont be spoke of as a good guy with a gun stopping a bad one if its reported on at all. I'm no conspiracy guy but I do see how the media works to spin things to back their agenda and feed their clientele

Then the (very suspiciously named) suspect will come out with his side and the video that he was taking of himself (according to the reporters he was recording himself) and talk about how he was oppressed as a patriot. Gun owners will be painted as the nuts twice from this one event I'm afraid
 
The off duty fireman held him at gunpoint. I know what the guy did was incredibly stupid and irresponsible, but what law did he break and was that legal for the off-duty fireman to do?
 
The off duty fireman held him at gunpoint. I know what the guy did was incredibly stupid and irresponsible, but what law did he break and was that legal for the off-duty fireman to do?

There is a doctrine of lesser harms that generally does not require hindsight judgment in emergency conditions. The lesser harm is that the firefighter might not have stopped a mass slaughter in progress versus the temporary detention of the nutjob at gunpoint.

The Supreme Court quote from a self defense case is most appropriate here which is" detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife." Thus, no reasonable jury would convict the firefighter based on the facts known at the time the fireman acted nor would a DA wanting to keep their job even try to prosecute it.

I am assuming that the idiot was like a certain former THR poster that delighted in trolling folks in real life by appearing in full garb with an AR to cause a panic. He was serving his own twisted agenda through his actions rather than making a political statement This sort of character is no friend to the 2nd Amendment nor the gun community.

The rather stupid trolling type behavior with the obligatory self videoing while doing so given the actions in NZ etc. at a WalMart which had a recent shooting, appearing dressed like Rambo, etc. would create a reasonable apprehension that the person intended harm in the eyes of normal citizens and could reasonably be described as disturbing the peace and the firefighter good guy reasonably acted to end the threat.
 
If it is legal to carry, then it’s legal. It is a problem if they arrest you and charge you with a some vague crime (here, making terroristic threats) you did not commit just because they don’t like the legal thing you did. If that’s OK, then the law does not matter, you can be arrested for anything.
 
Not sure what the suspects plan was, he was walking around with a loaded AR15 it seems but didn’t shoot anyone. He might have been just attempting to shock people because he is an idiot.

Missouri doesn’t prohibit open carry apparently and some can get permits for it.

From another article:

“In Missouri, there isn't a statute that prohibits the open carrying of a firearm and certain permit holders are explicitly allowed to open carry, according to the Giffords Law Center. People with a valid concealed carry permit, who are lawfully carrying a firearm may briefly openly display the firearm.”

Doesn’t appear this guy met the definition of open carry. Either way, good thing this guy was here to stop this nonsense. This certainly doesn’t help open carry advocates.


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https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/08/08/good-guy-with-gun-stops-armed-man-in-missouri-walmart/

Not sure what to say....:uhoh:
 
The rather stupid trolling type behavior with the obligatory self videoing while doing so given the actions in NZ etc. at a WalMart which had a recent shooting, appearing dressed like Rambo, etc. would create a reasonable apprehension that the person intended harm

While I agree he was likely stupidly seeking attention and certainly agree he was doing no favors for us as gun owners, I have to agree with the other guys that if he wasnt doing anything illegal then he was pretty much harassed and kidnapped at gunpoint. Furthermore if he was breaking no law and some stranger tackled him at gunpoint then in most states he was legal to use deadly force, thankfully he didnt. Conversely, if I'm in walmart and a guy comes in with a long gun and a tac vest....my attention is on him.

After charlotesville if I were driving through walmart in a challenger should some random guy hold me at gunpoint because I had the same car as the nutjob that committed a crime earlier and I might floor it toward a crowd?

Not arguing either way. Just saying it's a very crappy state of affairs. No good can come of any of it for either side of the coin.
 
IMHO this is a lot like yelling FIRE in a crowded movie theater

That is not protected speech.

Running around in military garb with loaded rifles and military clothing just after several shootings should not be protected either. I would think doing do is prima facie evidence that you are a 'nut job' (1)

Not because of the 2A but for whatever reasons the yelling FIRE isn't.

caveat: I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.

(1) I'm also not a psychiatrist and I don't play one of those on TV either ...
 
this is a lot like yelling FIRE in a crowded movie theater

But yelling fire in a theater is illegal. Assuming he was legal here that's not the same. Do we want to argue in favor of more supression of our rights? Are we going to argue what is legal to wear in public. Are bdu pants ok. Olive drab, tactical boots? Will we make a list and 2 of the above are ok but 3 makes it legal for a random civilian to pull a gun on you? Or that walmart should be a gun free zone?

I'm not telling anyone how to think. Hell I dont know to think on this one.
 
But yelling fire in a theater is illegal. Assuming he was legal here that's not the same. Do we want to argue in favor of more supression of our rights? Are we going to argue what is legal to wear in public. Are bdu pants ok. Olive drab, tactical boots? Will we make a list and 2 of the above are ok but 3 makes it legal for a random civilian to pull a gun on you? Or that walmart should be a gun free zone?

I'm not telling anyone how to think. Hell I dont know to think on this one.

Let me put it this way ... what do you think would happen if this happens 20x more this year ?

You're not doing any gun owners any favors by unnecessarily scaring the sheeple ...
 
According to Missouri online court records he is being charged with:

574.120. Making a terrorist threat, second degree — penalty. — 1. A person commits the offense of making a terrorist threat in the second degree if he or she recklessly disregards the risk of causing the evacuation, quarantine or closure of any portion of a building, inhabitable structure, place of assembly or facility of transportation and knowingly:

  (1) Communicates an express or implied threat to cause an incident or condition involving danger to life; or

  (2) Communicates a false report of an incident or condition involving danger to life; or

  (3) Causes a false belief or fear that an incident has occurred or that a condition exists involving danger to life.

  2. The offense of making a terrorist threat in the second degree is a class E felony.

  3. No offense is committed under this section by a person acting in good faith with the purpose to prevent harm.
 
According to Missouri online court records he is being charged with:

574.120. Making a terrorist threat, second degree — penalty. — 1. A person commits the offense of making a terrorist threat in the second degree if he or she recklessly disregards the risk of causing the evacuation, quarantine or closure of any portion of a building, inhabitable structure, place of assembly or facility of transportation and knowingly:

  (1) Communicates an express or implied threat to cause an incident or condition involving danger to life; or

  (2) Communicates a false report of an incident or condition involving danger to life; or

  (3) Causes a false belief or fear that an incident has occurred or that a condition exists involving danger to life.

  2. The offense of making a terrorist threat in the second degree is a class E felony.

  3. No offense is committed under this section by a person acting in good faith with the purpose to prevent harm.

So, yelling 'FIRE' in a theater but doing it very scarily ? :evil:
 
The whole thing sucks. Terrible position for everyone.

If I yell fire I did in fact communicate to get people to evacuate. I've not read anywhere that this guy said anything except to his phone. And nothing about a threat. If I'm doing nothing illegal and I dont threaten, who decides I'm a threat? A random former fireman?

If he actually threatened anyone than that's an entirely different matter, try him and keep him locked up.

Where is the line? If your ccw shows when the wind blows is that the same, people may be equally scared? What about a glock hat? Big pocket knife? Can a complete non-law enforcement member tackle me and hold me at gunpoint? I'm just saying I agree with you fully that he is hurting the 2a at the moment. But assuming that his carrying was legal, at what point did it become illegal? Because others get scared?
 
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The whole thing sucks. Terrible position for everyone.

Where is the line? If your ccw shows when the wind blows is that the same, people may be equally scared? What about a glock hat? Big pocket knife? Can a complete non-law enforcement member tackle me and hold me at gunpoint? I'm just saying I agree with you fully that he is hurting the 2a at the moment. But assuming that his carrying was legal, at what point did it become illegal? Because others get scared?

When the sheeple stampede ..

Can you discuss lighting a match quietly in a theater ?

Can you discuss a Molotov cocktail in a theater ?

Can you yell out 'Heat and Light' at the top of your lungs in a theater ?

Can you yell 'FIRE' in a theater ?

I'm not sure there are laws that cover all of these situations, but I personally would not yell 'FIRE' unless there was a fire ...

it's the 'scary' that does it, if you scare the sheeple then they will charge you.

If that same guy went in with the body armor and the loaded guns but was all smiling and in a toga like animal house, maybe helping a woman pick up her groceries and did not scare anyone, IMHO he would not be charged

well, except for maybe double-secret probation ...
 
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When the sheeple stampede

And again if He threatened anyone or pointed the gun or anything actually threatening then it changes the context completly but...

So as gun owners, many of whom carry concealed, we are ok with "you can exercise your 2nd ammendment....so long as no one gets scared even though you done nothing illegal" in which case it became illegal and a random person also carrying can tackle and pull a gun on you? Idk.
And no reasonable person would do what the guy did especially at the time he did. Idk I'll leave it be and see what others think.
Like I said, this one sucks. Bad
 
This man is a fool, I'll use that term to keep it PG. Short version if that off duty fire fighter had gunned him down, I think the citizens would have clapped, and he would have gotten a medal. We would have discussed how a good-guy with a gun saved the day.

If a terrorist suicide bombing was engaged in by a group of individuals wearing distinctive clothing, and some yahoo decided to dress in said type clothing carrying a similar device as was widely publicized in the media (and in most states explosives are legal unless used in a crime, just like firearms) I highly doubt anyone here on THR would be even remotely defending the suspect.

I'm honestly surprised this guy didn't get flattened in the parking lot by a concerned citizen. That would have been my prefered option versus going for my EDC.

You want to lose open carry, you want to lose AR's, body armor, etc. This how you do that. You rub it in peoples faces in a manner that is particularly unpalatable to a large portion of the populace in a period of great political turmoil. We are a representative democracy. Regardless of how we on THR feel, the constitution has been amended quite a few times in it's short life (27), and things like this after the events that have happened recently just help push the pendulum in the direction of losing those rights we have.
 
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How would YOU respond to this situation if you were at Walmart and this person walked in wearing tactical gear and carrying an AR in a low ready position? What would you do if you saw someone carrying their pistol in a ready position? Open carry is legal, right? If they can carry an AR unholtered, why not a pistol or revolver?
 
This man is a fool, I'll use that term to keep it PG. Short version if that off duty fire fighter had gunned him down, I think the citizens would have clapped, and he would have gotten a medal. We would have discussed how a good-guy with a gun saved the day.

If a terrorist suicide bombing was engaged in by a group of individuals wearing distinctive clothing, and some yahoo decided to dress in said type clothing carrying a similar device as was widely publicized in the media (and in most states explosives are legal unless used in a crime, just like firearms) I highly doubt anyone here on THR would be even remotely defending the suspect.

I'm honestly surprised this guy didn't get flattened in the parking lot by a concerned citizen. That would have been my prefered option versus going for my EDC.

You want to loose open carry, you want to loose AR's, body armor, etc. This how you do that. You rub it in peoples faces in a manner that is particularly unpalatable to a large portion of the populace in a period of great political turmoil. We are a representative democracy. Regardless of how we on THR feel, the constitution has been amended quite a few times in it's short life (27), and things like this after the vents that have happened previously just help push the pendulum in the direction of losing those rights we have.

You're right, hiding things and bowing to the sheeple has worked so well for us.
 
man is a fool

I agree completely with that point.

And like I said, where i live OC is legal and not rare to see but i choose not to.

But allowing random citizens to tell us when we cant legally carry, where it's presumably legal, because they are scared seems a lot like losing open carry already. Especially in liberal areas.

There are many ways this gets spun....all are bad for 2a
 
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