Got an Anti to commit to a range day!

[cluck]

After a long run campaign on FB against an old high school friend of mine, I wrangled her into committing to go to the gun club with me. She is VERY anti, has a law degree, and in my mind, is considered "dangerous to our cause". I used to never post on FB until I started seeing her sharing "Occupy the NRA" drivel. I couldn't hold my tongue. My intent is not to change her mind. That would be futile. My intent is to correct as much of the disinformation as possible, and expose the lies while showing her that firearms culture is:
A) Safe.
B) From ALL walks of life.
C) Safe.

My Pro2A Kungfu is very good. I can successfully defeat almost every kind of Anti2A attack. Facts, figures, and actual data also help me maintain the high road. I consider this a good opportunity to hold someone to truth and attempt to get them over their "hoplophobia", but I also consider it seriously, because I could be treading dangerously and the last thing I want to do is give an Anti some ammo. One asset. She admitted to me that her husband has been wanting to shoot firearms for about 15 years and he will be coming along. My wife is coming along also to give her the ladies perspective. She too is sharp in Pro2A.

I ask, Moderators, Members, and Pro2A Kungfu Masters, what are the most blatant lies that have been told from the other side that will help me undermine her argument?
I have two weeks to prepare for this and I have to be on my "A" game.
I might even start a thread called "Lightning round" where you all throw as many Anti attacks you have ever heard and see if I can deftly counter every one of them.
Thanks for the help.

 

[jamesbeat]

AR's are extremely high powered and can be used to 'spray fire from the hip'.
Try to demonstrate that firing from the hip (unless you have some kind of special training and a LOT of practice) is extremely inaccurate.

Evil black rifles are somehow different to other semiauto rifles that hunters use.
Try to provide samples of both so that they can see that there is no functional difference.

Good people don't need standard capacity magazines.
Try a little role play. Get some ten round mags and ask them to imagine that they are defending their home against multiple armed intruders and see if they like the idea of having to do frequent mag changes in such a scenario.

 

[ATLDave]

Let the shooting do most of the work. There's a good chance that she'll feel the zen/flow concentration that it induces and at least see the appeal. Don't try to debate while you're on the range. Just shoot and teach safety and technique. Afterward you can discuss disagreements. JMHO, but I've done this a few times with some success.

 

[cluck]

No. No debate at the line. I told her I would treat her just like any first timer I was introducing to firearms. We'll save all debate for lunch conversation.

 

[curlymaple42]

Bring an M1 Garand so you can once and for all teach her the difference between a clip and a magazine! Or an Enfield, or similar clip fed rifle.

Good luck and we will be praying for you. Lol!



Sent from my DROID RAZR

 

[Blackstone]

It's good that you and her have been given this opportunity

 

[miamivicedade]

"You dont want to hunt with an AR-15 because it will blow up the animal"

 

[cluck]

AR's are extremely high powered and can be used to 'spray fire from the hip'.
Try to demonstrate that firing from the hip (unless you have some kind of special training and a LOT of practice) is extremely inaccurate.

Evil black rifles are somehow different to other semiauto rifles that hunters use.
Try to provide samples of both so that they can see that there is no functional difference.

Good people don't need standard capacity magazines.
Try a little role play. Get some ten round mags and ask them to imagine that they are defending their home against multiple armed intruders and see if they like the idea of having to do frequent mag changes in such a scenario.

Spray fire is completely ridiculous, totally hollywood, and is defeated by examples of when our own military and LEO's use that technique.......as in, NEVER.

We are going to a top notch range with all of the Class 3 niceties. I will be able to point out, "That is an Assault Rifle, THAT is a Sporting Rifle".
I'm also prepared to explain that a 30rd mag is standard and perfect "Emergency Preparation" examples of it's utility.

Chances are, she may fire a few from the Sig Mosquito, maybe even a few from the P238, but anything else.......? The grail would be to get her firing the PWS Mk107! Thats as "evil black gun" as it gets.

 

[cluck]

I also can't validate what I have read here that the police are not responsible for my safety.

In regards to the big whoppers that the antis are saying: it would help if I had information like, Who said it? When? Not necessary, but would improve my credibility.

 

[dab102999]

I don't know your shooting experiance but I would assume it to be pretty extensive. I don't know there shooting experiance but I would assume little to none. My approach would be to state with a lower caliber round. And load one at a time. Get them very comfortable shooting and go from there. Shoot different things then paper if you can. I myself have taught a few different people. None that I could say were strong antis but moreso people that just were never exposed to firearms, therefor scared of them. But even once they got comfortable I wouldn't let them try any rapid fire at all from anything but a good fire position. I would tell them this isn't. T.v. and that is not what guns are for.

As far as responces to them I would approach it as we are here to shoot and have fun. You sound like you know their game. You don't need an asnwer for everything just the major points. The rest will come together.

 

[TRX]

> No. No debate at the line. I told her I would treat her
> just like any first timer I was introducing to firearms.
> We'll save all debate for lunch conversation.

+100. Bring lots of ammo, and both some earplugs *and* muffs. A lot of new shooters are bothered more by the noise than the recoil.

If possible, go over basic safety and operation *before* you get to the range, where it's noisy and distracting.

 

[HankR]

From my experience,

Try not to be too preachy, let the fun soak in first. Especially if you get her husband hooked, you may have another chance.

I would try to borrow a .22 lr upper or a dedicated .22 lr AR pattern rifle, complete with adjustable stock. Show how the adjustable stock is so great for teaching smaller women and children to shoot. Show how the evil looks don't change the effect.

Take along an AR pattern in .223 and a traditional hunting rifle in .308 or 30-06. Arrange to have the cartridges lying side by side and show her that this measly thing in not too high powered for hunting, in many states it is considered illegal for hunting because it is underpowered. Depending on the rules at the range, shoot at some "exploding" targets with both rifles and show the different effects. (pop bottles full of water, over-ripe pumkins, etc -- don't forget to clean up the mess!) Perhaps also compare/contrast a pump 12 gauge. Let her shoot all of these, and she can feel that a 30-06 or 12 gauge has more oomph than the .223 even if you can't arrange the 'splodey targets.

Again in my experience, letting them have some fun with guns goes a long way towards diffusing the "why do you need" argument. And it's much more polite and PC than the correct answer

 

[blarby]

Fantastic.

All it takes is the trigger.

Good job !

 

[Jackal1]

Some good resources are:
FBI wounding factors .pdf (find it online) - discusses how bullets aren't magical unless the central nervous system is directly hit, otherwise most criminals are defeated by either just giving up at the sound of gunfire or massive blood loss which takes time.

Massad ayoobs book Stressfire 2: Advanced Combat Shotgun - mentions a criminal high on heroin that was able to fight back after absorbing 18 pellets of 00Buck, and was able to perform dynamic though non lifethreatening motions after absorbing 27 pellets of 00Buck & a single 38 Special. Note that each pellet of 00Buck is almost equivalent to a FMJ 9mm handgun bullet. This guy absorbed 28 shots and was still moving around. This is why high capacity handgun or rifle magazines are needed for the average citizen.

Gottlieb & Workmans book " armed self defense in a violent age" - 1981 ruling from U.S. District Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia in the 1975 case of "Warren v. District of Columbia" says it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." Translated that means the police are under no legal requirement to protect an individual citizen from harm. If you find yourself in danger, and the police do not come to the rescue in time, you are out of luck & on your own time.

 

[BHP FAN]

''Bring an M1 Garand so you can once and for all teach her the difference between a clip and a magazine! Or an Enfield, or similar clip fed rifle...''

Curlymaple is my hero!

 

[somerandomguy]

Take her to shoot one of those military style assault weapon AR-15's with the shoulder thing that goes up.

Joking aside, do it. Might as well educate the anti while you do it that way she won't be so gullible. With a little luck you can probably convert her to our side.

 

[doc2rn]

My personal favorite, "those guns kill people!" I usually place said firearm in front of that person and yell "kill, maim, destroy"...to which I usually get a quisical look. Then you just say "nope" that type of inanimate object phobia is just what the anti's have worked it up to be. Fear of an inanimate object is irrational. People need to be accountable for their actions!
This is where I usually bring up the healthcare debate and how most states have pulled millions from the mental health fields.

 

[cluck]

Some good resources are:
FBI wounding factors .pdf (find it online) - discusses how bullets aren't magical unless the central nervous system is directly hit, otherwise most criminals are defeated by either just giving up at the sound of gunfire or massive blood loss which takes time.

Massad ayoobs book Stressfire 2: Advanced Combat Shotgun - mentions a criminal high on heroin that was able to fight back after absorbing 18 pellets of 00Buck, and was able to perform dynamic though non lifethreatening motions after absorbing 27 pellets of 00Buck & a single 38 Special. Note that each pellet of 00Buck is almost equivalent to a FMJ 9mm handgun bullet. This guy absorbed 28 shots and was still moving around. This is why high capacity handgun or rifle magazines are needed for the average citizen.

Gottlieb & Workmans book " armed self defense in a violent age" - 1981 ruling from U.S. District Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia in the 1975 case of "Warren v. District of Columbia" says it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." Translated that means the police are under no legal requirement to protect an individual citizen from harm. If you find yourself in danger, and the police do not come to the rescue in time, you are out of luck & on your own time.

Nice Jackal! All very good info.

 

[jamesbeat]

Right.
The only reason that I even said that you'd need a lot of training and practice was to cover my a$$ in case there was some weird esoteric use for spray fire that I wasn't aware of

I am partially referring to using a PGO shotgun, which should be slung lower than a shouldered arm, but even that isn't an ideal example because most agree that a shoulder stock is vastly superior.

I have changed my mind a little about my examples after reading the other replies.
I now agree that the 'preaching' should not take place during the shooting session.

Once they realise the fun they are having, they will perhaps get over their hoplophobia.
I think that the main driving force behind the anti mentality is the fear of the weapon itself, and the arguments they use are simply them trying to rationalize that fear.
If (when!) they have fun shooting, I'd say the battle will practically win itself.

 

[cluck]

Right.
The only reason that I even said that you'd need a lot of training and practice was to cover my a$$ in case there was some weird esoteric use for spray fire that I wasn't aware of

I am partially referring to using a PGO shotgun, which should be slung lower than a shouldered arm, but even that isn't an ideal example because most agree that a shoulder stock is vastly superior.

I have changed my mind a little about my examples after reading the other replies.
I now agree that the 'preaching' should not take place during the shooting session.

Once they realise the fun they are having, they will perhaps get over their hoplophobia.
I think that the main driving force behind the anti mentality is the fear of the weapon itself, and the arguments they use are simply them trying to rationalize that fear.
If (when!) they have fun shooting, I'd say the battle will practically win itself.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate all of the input I can get. It's why I started the thread. If I reply in a "counter" manner, it's because I am refining all of my arguments. I suspect her husband will have more fun than she will, but at the very least, education reduces ignorance which reduces fear.

 

[jamesbeat]

Absolutely, I took no offence whatsoever.
That's the pitfall of trying to apply reason to an unreasonable argument

 

[Fryerpower]

Quick review material:
About assault weapons: http://www.assaultweapon.info/
About the riddle of the gun: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-riddle-of-the-gun
The gun ban that misfired: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...8235460300469292.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop
The police have no duty to protect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

-Jim

 

[Waywatcher]

The above piece linked from WSJ is actually really, really good. Thanks for sharing, Fryerpower.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Focus on having fun and staying safe.
That's the best argument you can have, asking "wasn't that fun? How about this gun? Want to try that one again?" Fun fun fun.
And if arguments do come up; fight data with data and fight perception with perception.

 

[RCArms.com]

Love taking antis to the range for the first time

Points I've Learned over the years.

start small. 22LR.
This is especially true for younger and female first time shooters. You want them to see how fun it can be and use bullseye targets only. No B21 or silhouettes.

NO über high power stuff. Check your testerone at the door. You are not looking impress the new shooter by giving them a 300 WinMag or .50AE that they will remember how bad it hurt them. Save the more powerful stuff for their second range trip.

Bring an evil assault weapon with you, preferable an AR. Don't tell them it's an assault weapon till after they shoot it. Let them enjoy the ergos, accuracy, and fun factor before you tell them they just shot an assault weapon.

NO TALK about power, knockdown, wounding efficiency, usefulness for hunting/defense. That conversation will be lost on a first time shooter and to be candid, may do more harm than good.

NO talk about mag capacities. Bring low caps and high caps. If your running hi caps, down load them to 20 or so, but still refer to them as standard 30 rd mags. The message here is "gee I was shooting with the 30 rd mags, but the rifle was going empty often".

Make the range trip about THEM. You can get some trigger time for yourself later, keep your guest at the bench and shooting as long as they are interested. A 22 AR or a Sig 522 works awesome for this. My 522 has become a favorite for new shooters that I take to the range.

Concentrate All your effort into showing them a fun and safe day at the range. You want them to leave with a smile on their face and maybe some new perspectives to think about. The ultimate win is for them to ask you if you would bring them to the range again.

This battle is one with one new shooter at a time.

Bring eyes and ears for them. NEW in package and gift it to them at the end of the day for your next range trip.

Make sure you offer their targets to take home if they want.

Important: make sure you are not positioned next to some mall ninja or tactical wanna be on the line. If you can, ask the range staff to create distance between you and other shooters if possible as you have a new shooter with you.

Oh yeah, and HAVE FUN