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got an illegal (LEO) mag on the internet-what to do?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Peter Gun, Dec 31, 2002.

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  1. Peter Gun

    Peter Gun Member

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    Hello everyone, my first post on the new board. Good to see so many familiar names from TFL.
    I recently got a 12 rnd mag for my sig 229 over the web. I paid paypal and it was shipped promptly but arrived quite clearly marked "restricted for Law enforcement only". I e-mailed the seller (not expecting a response) and he claims it was not marked LEO and I'm playing games with him.
    I'm not keeping the mag no matter what because 2 extra rounds arnt worth the risk and this is my carry gun. He says he wants me to take a picture, but I dont have a digicam so its going to be a pain in the butt to do. I find it hard to beleive he really didnt know it was LEO, but I guess I'll go through the motions. If he wont refund after getting a picture I plan on contacting paypal and then bringing it down to the local PD. Unless he was smart enough to wipe it down , his prints are probably on it still. Hopefully he is a member of this forum and will see I'm not screwing around.
    Any other Ideas on how to handle this?
     
  2. AZTOY

    AZTOY Member

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  3. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not familar with Paypal. Can they, like credit cards, deny the charges?

    Rather than suffer a total loss, if nothing else, find a cop who will buy it at market (LE) rate. You can post it here at THR.

    (No guys, not self serving & I'm not interested in a 229 mag).
     
  4. roscoe

    roscoe Member

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    I don't get it. What does the fact that it has writing on it have to do with its legality? A 12-round magazine is a 12-round magazine.
     
  5. 444

    444 Member

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    If it is marked LE only that means that it was manufactured after the ban, and we mortals arn't allowed to own it.

    Look, I see where you are coming from. It sounds like the guy was less than honest. But is it really worth possibly ruining the guys life over this mag. I can see not wanting to get yourself in trouble, and I can see you being mad about the whole situation, but what you are talking about doing could have some huge consequenses for this guy. I don't know the guy, and I am not sticking up for what he did to you, but I think you should reconsider.
    There have been countless threads posted about shooting someone over personal property. Many people argue that your personal property isn't worth someone's life. This is very similar.
    Worst case senario, you throw the mag in a river somewhere and take the loss. It is terrible that you would have to do that. But possibly bringing down the ATF on this guy is way out of line.
     
  6. deanf

    deanf Member

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    Perhaps the seller is setting you up. Maybe he's ATF, or who knows what.

    I would cease all further communication (self-incrimination) and send the mags back return-receipt-requested, and include a clear statement that you did not want to purchase LE only mags in the first place, and you certainly don't want the ones you're sending back. After that I would report this person for anything you can think of to anyone you can think of.
     
  7. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Member In Memoriam

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    So you paid $x for the mag. How much is the lesson worth?

    I'm with 444 on this, but I'd go a bit further. I'd destroy it, which renders it useless and therefore not illegal. Then I'd toss it in the river.
     
  8. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

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    Peter Gun, I'm afraid I don't go with our brethren (and sistren?) who recommend junking this magazine and leaving it there. If the seller did this to you, he has done / will do it to others. If I were you, I'd write him a lawyer's letter, outlining fully your complaint, and requesting a refund PLUS LEGAL EXPENSES. I would also advise him, in the letter, that if you did not receive satisfaction within an appropriate period of time (say 30 days from the date of your letter?), you would refer the matter to Federal law enforcement agencies for investigation and prosecution. While awaiting a response, I'd leave the offending magazine(s) in my lawyer's safe, clearly marked as pending legal action. That way, if the ATF or anyone else gets interested, you've covered yourself as best you can.

    (And, yes, if the seller didn't make good, I WOULD hand the case to the ATF and let him/her take the consequences. Theft is theft, and deception is deception. There's too much of it around! :fire: )
     
  9. Sean Smith

    Sean Smith Member

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    Call the ATF. I'm serious. I'm not a beliver in the laws in question, or the sprit behind them, or pretty much anything that keeps me from mounting an 81mm mortar on my patio. But the seller knowingly involved you in a criminal enterprise just so he could turn a buck. To me, that has scumbag written all over it.

    The bastard put your liberty, and possibly your life (see no-knock raid topics for details) at risk so he could make some buck selling illegal mags that you didn't want. Burn him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2003
  10. Preacherman

    Preacherman Member

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    Adding to Sean's comment - please don't call the ATF UNTIL you've sent the lawyer's letter! Otherwise, you might meet up with some bureaucratic idiot who will think to himself "Hey, now, here's a non-LEO with an LEO magazine, coming to my door. I can nail HIM for a violation right now - why go to all the trouble of investigating the guy whom he claims illegally sold him the magazine?" If you get the impression I've dealt with such bureaucrats before, you're right... :banghead:
     
  11. JackShandy

    JackShandy Member

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    I just want to be clear on one thing here...

    ...all high-capacity mags mfg. after the ban are labeled for LEO? So any 15 round mag I get a hold of without such markings is legal?
    Thanks.
     
  12. Gary H

    Gary H Member

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    I would do what it took to protect myself and to put this guy out of business.

    I would contact the ATF and write the letter.
     
  13. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    Well, I can hear the screams now but I'm going to go ahead and say this.

    LE Only?

    Says who?

    For what reason?

    On whose legitimate authority?

    Does everyone here jump through every damn legal hoop the government pukes up out of terror? Cowardice?

    No, let me guess, honesty. It makes one more honest to scurry off to obey some minor and non-sensical "law" that everyone here spends all the rest of their time condemning and cursing.

    I've never gotten an LE Only marked mag. If I ever do I can guarantee I'll buzz the markings off, refinish it and forget about it. Nobody will ever know or even have reason to suspect or care nor will I feel less than honest, because it is this "law" that is wrong, immoral and probably unconstitutional.

    Y'all worry too much. And if we can't even take a stand by laughing off something like this and going on with life and without concern about it what is all this talk about "Where's the line?"
     
  14. Blackcloud6

    Blackcloud6 Member

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    >>It sounds like the guy was less than honest. But is it really worth possibly ruining the guys life over this mag. I can see not wanting to get yourself in trouble, and I can see you being mad about the whole situation, but what you are talking about doing could have some huge consequenses for this guy. I don't know the guy, and I am not sticking up for what he did to you, but I think you should reconsider. <<

    I can't agree with this at all. The seller is being dishonest and these types ruin the integrity of online sales, eBay, Paypal etc. They should be stopped in their tracks. Dishonest is dishonest, wrong is wrong.

    Now, if when he was emailed about the problem and he he said. "Oops, sorry, I didn't know, please send back for a full refund." Then I would drop it. ASn hoest mistake is just a mistake and can be forgiven.

    I buy and sell a lot through eBay and the crooks need to be stopped.
     
  15. pax

    pax Member

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    Preacherman is right.

    You don't want to ruin the guy's life, unnecessarily. So get a lawyer involved, cover your fanny, and give the guy a chance to fix it. If he doesn't, sic the ATF on him.

    As for 444's advice. 444 is right on the other thread and wrong on this one. The other situation involves a problem which the seller could have caused by accident, so there's much more room to just let it go as far as the seller is concerned.

    But this case seems pretty cut and dried, to me. The guy was willing to ruin your life to turn a buck. If your response ruins his life, it is no different than any other form of self-defense: regrettable, but his own fault.

    pax

    You live and learn, or you don't live long. -- Robert A. Heinlein
     
  16. Sean Smith

    Sean Smith Member

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    2nd Ammendment (the poster) is missing the point.

    I don't care if you traffic in "illegal" (read: normal) magazines to your heart's content. I think the law is dopey and unconstitutional. Heck, if you want to start a mass campaign of civil disobedience against the stupid law, go for it. The last thing I'd do is narc on y'all. Buy, sell and trade "illicit" (read: fun) weapons all you want for all I care.

    But that's not the issue. The topic starter was unwittingly, without his consent, involved in a criminal enterprise by some dumb greed freak. The seller isn't some noble Robin Hood of firepower here... he is trying to dupe and rip off people while placing their liberty in danger without their consent. Unless, of course, you trust the ATF and other instruments of state power to be merciful when you break a "stupid" law. :rolleyes:

    Look at this from a hypothetical situation not involving guns...

    If I'm trying to buy chocolate ice-cream online, and some guy sends me cheap Bolivian marijuana-laced chocolate ice cream and pretends it is normal chocolate, he is making me part of a criminal activity and hoping I don't realize it just so he can make a buck. Now, maybe I think laws giving huge criminal penalties for posession of marijuana are fascistic. And in fact, pot-laced ice cream has a certain symmetry to it. But the problem isn't pot, the problem is putting someone in danger of violating a stupid law with draconian penalties without their prior knowledge.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2003
  17. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    Thing is your hypothetical icecream isn't going to be sent by mistake. The sender will know, almost without question. OTOH so far as I see in this thread, we have no idea if the sender of the mag is a cheat, "greed freak" or just some guy that found a mag in the bottom of his sock drawer and ebayed it.

    I said I've never had an LE marked mag. I've thought about it since making that post and the fact is, I've never checked. I may have had dozens. It isn't something that ever occurred to me to look for. If any of the mags I've had for any of the guns I've had were marked then I sold 'em that way. Some on ebay, some elsewhere, but all without ever thinking to look.

    I have no idea if this guy ever thought of it either but I do know before I would put myself in a tizzy, mess with the legal system, allow myself to be placed under a microscope and possibly offer ATF or some over-zealous local/state boy a chance to find some obscure violation of my own I'd forget about it. Fix the mag, write the seller off as potential trouble and go on living.

    The law applicable here would be the last and least consideration on my mind and if it isn't a consideration then there's really no problem...yet. BTW, I never miss the point.
     
  18. riverdog

    riverdog Member

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    You didn't say what you paid for this contraband, but pulling some numbers out of the air ...

    Pre Ban mag = ~$100

    LEO only mag = ~$15

    100-15= $85 pure profit times every LEO mag he's sold as pre-ban. Pretty soon we're talking real money here.

    Unlike some who would have you be gentle with this perp, I wouldn't be gentle at all. He may be legit and this is an honest mistake; OTOH, you could be one of many he's scammed. I'd keep this mag in a ziploc bag and send the lawyer letter and follow through if you aren't refunded immediately.
     
  19. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Member In Memoriam

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    Anybody got a handy link to the text of this mag law?
     
  20. Sean Smith

    Sean Smith Member

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    2nd Ammendment,

    Aside from the fact that LE-only mags are stamped "Law Enforcement Only" in great big letters? :rolleyes:

    So obviously, yeah, you did miss the point. ;)
     
  21. Guyon

    Guyon Member

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    I'd put the mag in a safe place (ie. cannot be found) while you give the guy a chance to reimburse you. If he's really a scumbag, he could ostensibly call the ATF and tell them that you bought a high-cap from him and are now trying to return an LEO only mag. Last thing you want is the ATF coming to your house and finding this illegal mag.
     
  22. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    Went and found an LE only mag. Buddy has several, previously unbeknownst to me. Course they are for his Glock which ends all curiosity for me. They are stamped in itty-bitty letters on the back of the mag. Easy enough to read if you care to look, not enough to get your attention if you aren't looking.

    BTW, you missed my point about never missing the point. Get it?

    :D
     
  23. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

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    Send him the letter, then call the ATF and hand them the mag (if they want it)...eat the cost if necessary.

    Gives a bad name to all legitimate dealers, and adds to the lawlessness image that the anits have...

    Put him out of business...
     
  24. 444

    444 Member

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    Two things I really like about this type of thread.

    1). I love to see the true colors of people. We have signature lines that say things like Molon Labe! implying that we would fight tooth and nail to keep our guns. But in reality, when a problem comes up as basic as having some unathorized writing on the side of a magazine, we all want to run to our friends of the gestapo and turn in the seller. Why ? Because we are good citizens that do exactly what our masters tell us to do. I have read threads about civil disobience up to and inculding revolutions if our guns are outlawed. Anyone who actually had the guts to try something like that to preserve their freedom would be ratted out the first day by their fellow gun owners. Reveloution ? We can't wait to get in bed with the state over writing on the side of a magazine.

    2) A lot of posts, and some threads have religous overtones; asking for our prayers or whatever. This of course implys that we follow these religous beliefs. I am no bible scholor, but I somehow missed the part about retaliation with the goal of totally destroying the other persons life. I do remember something about, turn the other cheek.
     
  25. Mike Irwin

    Mike Irwin Member

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    "I am no bible scholor, but I somehow missed the part about retaliation with the goal of totally destroying the other persons life."

    That's in the book of Armaments, Chapter 22, verse 12.

    A few verses after the detailed instructions for arming the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.
     
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