Grenade tossed into revolver discussions

[Mike OTDP]

For those of you who follow him, the gentleman posting as Capandball on YouTube has a new video. Shot a Uberti '61 Colt from a Ransom Rest...and got some unbelievable groups. As in knocking a hell of a lot of orthodox thinking over the head. 6 shots into about 1 inch at 25 meters, with an untuned gun. The big trick was the load - 8.5 grains of Swiss #1 (4F) powder. 18 grains filler (I presume by volume). Accuracy deteriorated fast with higher powder charges.

I would NEVER have expected that level of performance. My experience with the Remingtons has been that they will shoot just about any charge well...though competitors at the World Championship level have settled on the 12-18 grain range for powder charges. I know there have been experiments with Swiss #1, which have been promising. If you can keep the powder from dribbling out the nipples. (FWIW, I like Swiss #1 very much for flintlock pistols)

Expect more to follow, including a comparison with both Pietta and an original '61 revolver.

 

[WestKentucky]

That’s mighty capable shooting. I keep hearing that the guns aren’t accurate enough to hunt with, maybe those people are wrong. I still haven’t shot my Navy Arms 44 though so who could know?

 

[.38 Special]

That’s mighty capable shooting. I keep hearing that the guns aren’t accurate enough to hunt with, maybe those people are wrong. I still haven’t shot my Navy Arms 44 though so who could know?

In my opinion, these guns are hamstrung by lousy sights, crummy triggers, and low expectations. Fix all three, and they'll often outshoot modern centerfires.

Four MOA is still spectacular, of course...

 

[45 Dragoon]

Well for the most part, Uberti builds and has been building excellent revolvers for a long time. The "problem" is shooting an 8 gr charge at paper is very different than shooting 26 grs ! 8 grs isn't going to move anything (revolver wise) but 26 will. Shooting 8 grs allows you to put your wedge in finger tight but that won't work for a "hunting" load.
Therefore, it's a little misleading for him to point out how "easy" it is to install and remove the wedge. Newbies will be starting all over again in 10 yrs wanting to know "what's a short arbor " and all the "how tight" about the wedge . . .
If Mr. Cap and Ball put the wedge in like Colts instructions say to, the "taper fit" arbor wouldn't work.

Believe me, the 45C Dragoon i set up for a bear hunt needs a more than "finger tight" wedge!!!

Mike

 

[Black Jack Shellac]

My 1860 Pietta (2022 made) is a good shooter with a stout load of 30 FFG Diamondback powder. 3" six shot groups at 25 yards. I have to bench rest now as I'm not as strong as I used to be. I did use lube over the balls at that time. With wads it didn't shoot so well. 8 grains like used I guess is ok but not for me.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I have hunted with Walkers and ROAs shooting at Jackrabbits in Nevada. Shots were from about 30 yards to around 75 yards. Both models are certainly minute of Jackrabbit. One can open up the rear sight on the open tops and improve the sight picture. I load enough powder to seat a ball or conical bullet and skip the breakfast food going down range. About all that fellow in the video proves is the gun is accurate from a rest and with mouse fart loads.

 

[Slamfire]

I shot some excellent groups with my Uberti 44 caliber Remington at 25 yards. If the tube is uniform and even, if the cylinders line up, and you match the bullet to the lands and grooves, I don't see any reason why a cap and ball won't shoot excellently. That is if the caps produce a uniform amount of ignition energy.

My groups came with Ox Yoke wads which really did a great job of removing fouling as I shot.

A bud of mine who shot sub three inch groups at 300 yards with black powder cartridge rifle told me of the very tight velocity extreme spreads he measured over a chronograph.

I had all sorts of fun with a 58 caliber musket at 100 yards. The thing would shoot.

James River provided a tall front sight and one that was lead soldered, so I could adjust the rifle for one load. I don't think you can ever fire too much lube down a black powder tube. My Minies were greased, even the cavity was full of grease. The more grease, the longer it took for the barrel to foul.

this actually happened in the English Civil war. Richard Atkyns put his muzzle against the head of Sir Arthur Haselrig, pulled the trigger, and the armor held. I am sure, given the pistol only had one shot, Mr Atkyns wanted a sure placement.

 

[unspellable]

Very light charge in the machine rest experiment. On the other hand I had a Rogers & Spencer replica that patterned like a shot gun with a light charge but tightened up nicely with a near full charge load.

 

[gilgsn]

Hello. I watched that video. He has a great channel and does very interesting experiments. I remember one of his videos where he shot a .44 Mag and .44-40 into gel. The .44-40 penetrated deeper! In this video his argument is that accuracy decreases above 8.5gr of 4F because Uberti's .36 barrel twist rate is too fast and the ball gets damaged, which makes perfect sense. I find that disappointing as that load is far from historical or efficient. Of course in Europe you can't even suggest that a gun could be used for anything else than hunting or target shooting. For a cap & ball revolver of course that would remain mostly true regarding target shooting.
My 1851 .36 is a Pietta, and I need to check the twist rate. I have never tried light loads with it as I find it more fun to use as much as possible, LOL. Maybe I'll try his load... The Pietta is accurate enough at 25m with 24gr, but I would not attempt a competition with it.
Gil.

 

[Jim Watson]

Check out the Muzzleloaders Associations International Confederation, MLAIC.
They have a wide variety of competition divisions, some for original guns only. Now where is my matchlock?

Disciplines | MLAIC

Precision events Rifle and musket individual and team events No 1 Miquelet - Individual O and R - Teams: No 9 Gustav Adolph (O) and No 31 Halikko (R) A) Firearm: Military smooth bore flintlock musket B) Sights: Original pattern sights. No rear sight C) Target: MLAIC C200 metres rifle target D)...

mlaic.org

 

[Mike OTDP]

Check out the Muzzleloaders Associations International Confederation, MLAIC.
They have a wide variety of competition divisions, some for original guns only. Now where is my matchlock?

Disciplines | MLAIC

Precision events Rifle and musket individual and team events No 1 Miquelet - Individual O and R - Teams: No 9 Gustav Adolph (O) and No 31 Halikko (R) A) Firearm: Military smooth bore flintlock musket B) Sights: Original pattern sights. No rear sight C) Target: MLAIC C200 metres rifle target D)...

mlaic.org

I've shot for the USA in every World Championship since 1996.
Grand fun, I highly recommend it.

 

[armoredman]

I don't shoot my New Model Army much cap and ball much since I got my Howell 45 Colt conversion cylinder, but I've always been of the opinion that the guns are more accurate than we think, today, since most thinking is colored with, " oh that old stuff, we got rid of it for a reason!"

Some older photos - I am NOT a great shot, merely average.

New Model Army at 10 yards, standing.

New Model Army with Howell 45 Colt conversion cylinder, black powder loads.

I would suspect a really good shooter could do go better.

 

[hawg]

Shooting paper bores me to tears so I very seldom do it. This was my Pietta navy, one hand unsupported 20 yards +/- 15 or so years ago. I probably couldn't do it now.

 

[armoredman]

I doubt I could do that either. BUT...it's been a while since I burned some of the Holy Black in a front stuffer, might have to do that this weekend.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I went out yesterday with a Pietta and Uberti 1860 navies and compared them. The Pietta has been tuned, the Uberti not yet. Both shot minute of soda can at 35 yards but I feel the Pietta did have a slight advantage. I need to put them on paper from a rest and see what they can really do.

 

[dickydalton]

#Jackrabbit1957, I outshot one of my 9mm pistols at the range once with the 1860 Sheriff you worked on for me.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

#Jackrabbit1957, I outshot one of my 9mm pistols at the range once with the 1860 Sheriff you worked on for me.

Excellent! Inaccurate guns hold no interest for me.

 

[armoredman]

#Jackrabbit1957, I outshot one of my 9mm pistols at the range once with the 1860 Sheriff you worked on for me.

He does some dang fine work, doesn't he?

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Thanks Dave!

 

[PapaG]

My first ROA, bought right after shooting the prototype at Friendship, shot most accurately with 20 grains of DuPont fffg, cornmeal to the mouth of the chamber and a .457 ball covered in a grease I can't recall. My latest, a 1977 stainless, does well with any reasonable load but I haven't shot it in years. Last outing with black was to chrono a chamber full of ffffg. It lives with a Howells 45 Colt cylinder that shoots to the sights with a 200 grain button nose wadcutter and a target load of Bullseye.
Most decent BP revolvers will surprise you with what they can do.
I've shot most of the replicas from the late 60s but have not done much since about 1980.

 

[sigwally]

He does some dang fine work, doesn't he?

Yes he does...

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Thanks guys, appreciate it.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Almost a one hole group at 15 yards...that "flyer" ruined it. 15 grains under the bullet I was using was the maximum amount I could get under it. Almost that accurate with around 20-21 grains under a ball. Uberti of course.

 

[drobs]

Watched this one last night. That Uberti group is impressive - basically 5 shots in the same hole with 1 flyer off the ransom rest.

Pietta vs Uberti 1861 Navy .36 showdown - mechanical accuracy duel

I have been playing with the Uberti and Pietta repro of the Colt 1861 Navy .36 revolver, and even if I have been shooting black powder for nearly 3 decades n...

www.youtube.com

 

[drobs]

I rarely shoot paper. Old target was shot at 7yds / 21ft with my Pietta 1860 Army 44.



This pretty horrible group was probably the last time I shot paper. I would guess the same distance. 21ft Pietta Colt Paterson 36. I don't recall if that is 4 or 5 shots.