Guilty Kimber2 secret - time to walk in the light?

Discussion in 'Gunsmithing and Repairs' started by Hawk, Feb 28, 2005.

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  1. Hawk

    Hawk Member

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    In the dim and distant past I had gotten an Ultra CDP-II that was running roughly 60% ftrtb.

    I sent it off to a local 'smith who sent it back with a note apologizing for not being able to get it to run right. I swapped out springs and retensioned the extractor to no avail. Admittedly, the 60% failure rate was now more like 45%

    Anyhow, I get twisted up and do what nobody, I'm sure, has ever done that frequents these forums: I remove the Series II parts and place them in a jar by the door.

    How 'bout that?! Function is suddenly 100% over about 500 rounds, where the story ends.

    The story ends, but for one thing: I hear tell the manufacturer has updated Series II parts less prone to the "sharp edge, failure to return to battery 1/8" from locked" syndrome. I'm kinda tired of blasting out crud from the hole in the slide - is it time to try again, order the parts and forget the nasty parts in the jar?

    Or has nothing really changed?

    According to the manufacturer, the problem never existed, thus current parts don't fix any known problem.

    Yeah, well, WhatEverrrr. What do the forum members think? I'll have to pay for the new parts as ::ahem:: nothing was wrong with the old ones. I'd kinda like to see the parts there as intended, but I'm disinclined to actually PAY to resurrect a solved problem.

    TIA
     
  2. kimbernut
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    kimbernut Member

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    Hawk

    Hawk, I'd try to get a real person at Kimber and go over the whole senario with them and see if they will take the parts back if they don't work. If that's not in the cards I'd leave well enough alone.
    Did you try warranty work by Kimber at the first sign of problem before you took out the II components? If you did not and it's still under warranty I'd send it back and let them take care of the whole thing. That way you are only out the one way shipping.Good Luck!!!
     
  3. Hawk

    Hawk Member

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    I don't think I've got the stones to ask Kimber to think about warrantee:

    The 'smith polished 'er up some (I didn't trust myself to work on an alloy frame).

    The ambi safety's been replaced with a single-sided Ed Brown. The original broke and fell out while I was shooting (bad day for MIM, I guess).

    A few too many changes to satisfy anybody's warrantee department, I'm afraid. I did contact Kimber early on and they said it was either an ammo issue or limp-wristing. Amazing what removing a few parts can do for my wrist.

    The thing runs 100% and the absence of the parts is only a minor irritant due to hole in the slide, but it's a persistent minor irritant.
     
  4. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    I'm not sure what hole in the slide you are refering to. Fortunately I own older Colts rather then Kimbers, and they don't have any extra holes that I know of ...

    But anyway, to make a constructive suggestion - could you plug the hole with a neatly placed pin and let it go at that?
     
  5. Bill Z

    Bill Z Member

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    Surprised you have no familiarity with the Type II or Schwartz parts Fuff, just thought you might. Please let me take the time to put some pictures up.

    [​IMG]

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    While I would not reccomend it, welding or soldering a piece in would be the only option to cover the holes. I have been fortunate in that I have never had a problem getting them to run and have never had to sidestep the safeties.

    Regards,
    Bill
     
  6. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    EGW will weld up the hole and cut it back flush for not very much money.
     
  7. Ktulu

    Ktulu Member

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    Just run it without those junky extra parts in it. I run my 9mm Stainless Target II that way and it's fine.
     
  8. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Bill said:

    >Surprised you have no familiarity with the Type II or Schwartz parts<
    ____________________

    Don't be...Most of us "Old Heads" have been tryin' to ignore those things,
    hopin' that they'll go away. :D
     
  9. Hawk

    Hawk Member

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    Well, my full sized Eclipse II has offered no grief. Neither has my series 80 Colt.

    Nevertheless, I swear and affirm that my next 1911 will be without any firing pin block razz-ma-tazz.
     
  10. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Bill Z:

    I am very familiar with Colt’s original Swartz Safety, and was aware that Kimber was using some kind of approximation thereof. I thought the reference was to some sort of exposed hole in the slide that would have negative effects on the pistol’s appearance when it was assembled.

    Colt incorporated the Swartz Safety in their commercial line of Government Model and 38 Super pistols in October 1937. At the time they tried to sell the feature to the Army, but they refused to have anything to do with it. Subsequently Colt had to run two kind of frames and slides, one for commercial pistols and one for military orders.

    At the time Colt was also manufacturing .45 pistols for the Brazilian government, and they to refused the Swartz Safety.

    Following World War Two, Colt did not restore the Swartz Safety, or anything like it until the Series 80 line was introduced. Their primary motive was to protect themselves from superfluous lawsuits from bottom-feeding attorneys, not because of any serious safety fault in the original design.

    The various firing pin block safeties being offered by several manufacturers today came about because of demands made by anti-gun organizations, and not from handgun buyers. In many cases they’re objections have been so strong they have gone to additional time and expenses to remove these features.

    I would note that your favorite manufacturer of aftermarket frames and slides – Caspian Arms – does not offer anything in their excellent line of components that are set up to take any of these devices.
     
  11. Kruzr

    Kruzr Member

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    Hawk, it's been about 2 years since I've heard of a FTRTB problem due to the Series II safeties. Kimber now puts a radius on the push rod and bevels the edges of the plunger. But, the FTRTB problem used to also be caused by the push rod sticking too far above the frame. It doesn't seem to take much. If you decide to put the push rod back, make sure the top is flush with or just under the top of the frame. This can be adjusted by letting the Grip Safety sit back a little further if needed. You can file the GS stops on top of the Mainspring Housing and let the GS sit back more. It just takes a little bit off the faces of the two nibs.
     
  12. Hawk

    Hawk Member

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    Kruzr:
    I believe my UltraCDP was early type II. The Eclipse plunger is noticably smoother and rounder than the CDP part which resembles the business end of a chewed chisel.

    Jim Watson:
    Expand, please. Who's EGW? TIA
     
  13. Bill Z

    Bill Z Member

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    Fuff, please let me take this opportunity to help you update your records. Caspian does offer the Series 80 cuts on their frames and slides. They are also a supplier for several manufacturers, one of them being Sig, and you are going to see another fairly shortly, so I'm not sure if the term 'aftermarket manufacturer' would be exactly correct, I would keep it at 'manufacturer.' It has been this way since Cal Foster started the company, and there have been and are currently several companies they supply with critical parts.


    John, what surprised me is that Fuff is a Gunwriter and professed 'expert court witness' for the industry, at least that is what I have gathered from previous posts. I would just have thought that his range of knowledge would have exceeded mine in these matters, especially when they concern safety systems and the removal of them. I was wrong.
     
  14. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Bill Z.

    In my hopelessly outdated book a “manufacturer†is a company that makes guns for resale. Caspian Arms does not manufacturer pistols. In this context they are a sub-contractor who supplies certain parts to a manufacturer, who in turn makes the complete product. In these instances the sub-contractor (In this case Caspian Arms) supplies the parts according to what these customers order. For the record, I believe the second company you mentioned is going to be buying slides and frames without any firing pin block.

    While Caspian does supply frames and slides with the Colt Series 80 cuts, this is an optional, not standard feature. Gary Smith offers a fairly long list of options of every kind and description. My point is that one doesn't necessarily have to avail themselves of this option, and many, if not most, don't.

    I do not advocate that people remove safety devices from their pistols – even those that might be considered superfluous or even potential contributors or causes of malfunctions. I do however acknowledge the right of individuals to remove them when they see fit, unless they are mandated by law – something the anti-gunners would love to see. What I said in my previous post was:

    >> The various firing pin block safeties being offered by several manufacturers today came about because of demands made by anti-gun organizations, and not from handgun buyers. In many cases they’re objections have been so strong they have gone to additional time and expenses to remove these features. <<

    Should I presume from your words that it is now your position that individuals who are custom building pistols using Caspian Arms frames and slides should only use those that can be fitted with a Colt Series 80 firing pin block system? Have you taken this position toward the students in the school where you instruct? And from now on will any personal pistols that you build incorporate a mechanical firing pin block?
     
  15. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Hawk, EGW is EGW Gunworks, used to be Evolution Gun Works. George Smith there is one of the leading gun welders in the business. Look under 1911 Sevices - Repairs for "weld and recut disconnector track (series 80)" at
    http://www.egw-guns.com/gunsmithing/gunsmith_fr.htm

    Kruzr, What you mean "You can file" this that and the other on a new gun? I know I am hopelessly out of date but I still expect a new major name brand gun to work when I get it, certainly the superfluous "safeties" that their lawyers have installed.
     
  16. 45auto

    45auto Member

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    Okay, just a sidenote:

    Is Caspian supplying(future) to another manufacturer introducing a 1911, or an existing manufacturer switching suppliers? :)
     
  17. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    45auto:

    I can only speculate as to what company Bill Z refered to, but there is one new manufacturer I know of that is buying frames and slides (and perhaps other parts) from Caspian Arms. Their identity will be known shortly I'm sure.

    Edited to add: I'm wrong ... !! :eek: On second thought there are TWO such companies.
     
  18. Kruzr

    Kruzr Member

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    Well, you could spend $40 - $50 bucks to send it back and let Kimber fix it for free but it's easier to spend 5 minutes doing it yourself. If only every manufacturer would put out zero defect guns..........but it just don't happen....not with Kimber, Colt, Springfield, Glock, SIG, Ruger, any of them. I've seen new guns from each have to go back. I have a friend who recently got an Ed Brown KC.........it went back because it wouldn't lock back and the slide stop had to be replaced. I won't even go into the problems I've had with one of my Baer TRS's. I think the only thing you are out of date on is the number of guns being produced and sold to people who don't have an armorer or a favorite local smith standing by to fix things and the ability of those people to post problems on the internet.
     
  19. 45auto

    45auto Member

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    Old Fuff:

    Thanks and the more the merrier I guess.

    I suspect the 1911 "pricing" is high enough for more to "jump in".
     
  20. Bill Z

    Bill Z Member

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    Absoloutly not, but I was just pointing out that they do since you had made this comment.


    I just thought people would like to know in the event they preffered this, their department required this if they wanted to build their own duty pistol, or if they wanted to restore a currrent set of parts and needed either a slide to fit the frame or vice/versa. Caspian does offer them this option.

    Was I wrong to point these things out? I'm just trying to keep you up to date, thought i was being a nice guy.

    Bill
     
  21. Bill Z

    Bill Z Member

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    It's that other one I'm kind of excited about Fuff, there basically in my back yard and I'm glad to see that version coming back to life again. Just ain't doing no bean spilling yet, hope to see something by this summer, but I'm not sure if it will be public knowledge like Sig was.
     
  22. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Bill Z:

    >> It's that other one I'm kind of excited about Fuff, there basically in my back yard and I'm glad to see that version coming back to life again. <<

    Given your additional description I will say that it is highly likely we are both talking about the same company.

    >> Just ain't doing no bean spilling yet <<

    I think they will appreciate that ...

    >> -- hope to see something by this summer, -- <<

    Keep your fingers crossed ...

    >> -- but I'm not sure if it will be public knowledge like Sig was. <<

    I'm sure it will be at the right time.

    The other manufacturer that I know of (and there may be more, given the number of players in the 1911 market, both foreigh and domestic) that are going to buy frames, slides, and maybe more from Caspian Arms is Taurus USA who will be marketing their own full-size version of the 1911

    Clearly, Gary Smith at Caspian is going to be a very busy guy ... :D
     
  23. Bill Z

    Bill Z Member

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    I actaully missed the entire Taurus/1911 deal.I was over their Sunday while they were counting ducks after the overnight deal Saturday. Neverheard another peep about it though. I think they made out OK.

    Did you see US firearms 1911? I hate to say it, but it was a horrible showing if you ask me, and that's before the price. The finish was nice though, I think Doug T is doing them, at least he eluded to it in a 'round about way. I don't know who's making their stuff though.
     
  24. 45auto

    45auto Member

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    Okay, I'll guess it's H&k. :)

    They need to do better than Sig on their "intro".

    Maybe their "light rail" will hold two lights. ;)
     
  25. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Nope, not H&K, and no rail either, ;)

    Neither Bill Z nor I am being coy; it's just that the company wants to make its own announcement. I can't blame them for that. When I can say, I will. :scrutiny: :D
     
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