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Gun Coating Info? Duracote and the like

Discussion in 'Gunsmithing and Repairs' started by possom813, Oct 6, 2012.

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  1. possom813

    possom813 Member

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    I have a little Savage Mark II Bolt Action .22 that I want to change the color of.

    The stock is synthetic, and I want it a dark/od green

    I want to make the barrel a silver matte color as well as the scope.

    What products(with links to it) would you recommend?
     
  2. Al Thompson

    Al Thompson Moderator Staff Member

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    I'll put this in Gunsmithing for more specific answers.

    A lot depends on the amount you are willing to spend. The base Duracoat type finishes start around 35 bucks for a single color, though if you have an air brush and air compressor, it's cheaper.
     
  3. Furncliff

    Furncliff Member

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    I can only help you in that I have a pistol that was coated with Duracoat before I purchased it and it has held up well.
     
  4. TITAN308

    TITAN308 Member

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    See my signature link and there is some info about DuraCoating.

    Yes and No.

    A single 4oz color is about $17.00 - then there is a flat rate shipping usually about $12.00 - for a total of $29.00

    The good news is the $12.00 flat rate shipping (chemicals) is the same if you buy one bottle, or buy larger or multiple bottles.

    Whatever you do, do not use one of those air-in-a-can setups. You'd be better of renting a compressor for a few hours from your local Home Depot if you want a quality finish.
     
  5. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    All the finishes wear with use. Paint-like, spray applied finishes tend to show up dings and scratches as bright shiny lines against the darker finish -- moreso than blued or parkerized finishes, which tend to wear a bit more softly rather than starkly showing defects.

    I strongly prefer KG GunKote over DuraCoat. It goes on a whole lot thinner (which doesn't obscure the features/lines/engraving of the gun so much) and seems to me to be less prone to chipping.

    The canned air set ups you can buy will do a pretty decent job. You can pretty easily assemble a very serviceable airbrush kit which will do just fine for these finishes from Harbor Freight for not much cash. However, a carpentry type air compressor (designed to run air tools at 100-120 psi) won't do much good for you as you need lower pressure (40 psi), drier air, and good control.

    (I've never seen a Home Depot that would rent you an airbrush-style compressor!)

    I use a pre-charge tank that I fill up with dried/filtered air from a compressor, and then run the airbrush off of that with another dried in the line and a precise low-pressure regulator.
     
  6. TITAN308

    TITAN308 Member

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    Most of this is Urban Legend.

    DuraCoat can be applied between .25mil to 1.25mil in thickness.

    Chipping is simply not possible with proper preparation. Something as simple as not wearing gloves after the final degrease phase can ruin parts of the finish as even the most minor oils from your fingers can cause adhesion issues.

    You'll often find these types of opinions in these arguments - I've yet to have anyone show proof that the DuraCoat itself was faulty and it was not user error in mixing or prepping.

    Everyone has preferences, which is fine - but getting sucked into Urban Legends is just pointless for everyone.

    Use the following link of two rifles I finished using DuraCoat - you can click on the image to magnify it much further: http://www.llarms.com/images/double_tan.jpg

    Edit: Another link for a high definition shot of one of our custom in-house colors: http://www.llarms.com/images/DSCF5600.JPG

    Not sure what kind of "obscuring" of details you are referring to?

    Yes DuraCoat is not as "newbie friendly" as other stuff; but it was developed from the ground up for Firearms, everything else is a spin-off of another product and thinking firearms as secondary (CereKote, GunKote, etc etc).

    Also while a toaster oven is fine for slides and pistol frames, not everyone has access or wants to acquire a full size oven for the big stuff. :)

    It is also urban legend that DuraCoat is a poly-type Sherman Williams repackaged paint, which is absolutely false.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  7. Mac's

    Mac's Member

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    TITAN308: Uhmm...Chipping is possible with ANY finish that's applied onto ANY surface. Duracoat is a good finish for certain materials but it was never intended as a firearms finish. It was never "developed from the ground up as a firearms finish". This is proven by several facts:
    1...It can not be applied to close tolerance internal moving parts.
    2...It has no verifiable test results.
    3...It will not burnish.

    There are no tests conducted by any recognized labs on it's use as a firearms finish. "Obscuring details" refers to blurring serial numbers, engraving, etc. Their web site has no test results and only says one thing regarding durabilty to harsh environements: "DuraCoat is well suited for salty environments. One of DuraCoat's attributes is its extreme ability to resist salt corrosion. A firearm coated with DuraCoat simply will not rust...EVER!"

    For comparison: Gunkote 2400 Series will withstand 1000 hours of a 15% oxygenated salt water spray at 800 degrees before it begins to deteriorate.

    I often get asked questions regarding the resistance of Gunkote to chemical or harsh environments, such as: "Will it hold up to aviation fuel"? (Twice for that one!) "Can I use Acetone to clean it"? "Exposure to highly chlorinated pool water"? etc. The answers for those questions is "No problem". Show me some test results for duracoat! Here's some for Gunkote. http://www.shootiniron.com/FINISH SPECS.html

    The 2300 Series of Gunkote WAS designed from the ground up as a finish for firearms..specifically to the meet the dry firing requirements set forth by the US Navy Seal Team #1. It was the only finish to pass those requirements. Show me anything similar for duracoat.

    Try this: Put a duracoated part in a container of Acetone and leave it for 1 hour. Do the same for a Gunkoted part but leave it in for 6 hours. Which will not show any change at all?

    If duracoat really has a mil-spec rating, why is not listed in ANY requirement specifications for weapons? Gunkote is listed as "Approved" by many law enforcement agencies around the country and even "Required" by the militaries of some other countries.

    The biggest problem with duracoat is that it will never burnish. That means it will not wear properly for a good fit on close tolerance moving parts. It just flakes off and clogs up the works. Now don't get me wrong. Duracoat has it's uses as a finish. Stocks, scope bodies...things that don't move or can't be heated to 300 + degrees. Also for dump trucks, tractors, etc. I actually like duracoat! We make a lot of money removing that stuff and applying a real firearms finish! Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
    Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All.
    Mac's Shootin' Irons
    http://www.shootiniron.com
     
  8. TITAN308

    TITAN308 Member

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    Of course chipping can happen on anything, but chipping is always an indication of an adhesion problem. There is a difference between chipping off and wearing off.

    Adhesion problem = preparation mistake/failure. Period - if it was the finish, then all of it would fall off, not just one area.

    So you are pretty much saying the creator of DuraCoat is wrong and you are right? Those are his words, not mine.

    Other products like the "Kote" family line originated as heat resistant finish for metal parts.... been used by the hot rod community forever. Just because it has "gun" in the name doesn't mean it originated from this category.

    Can you cite your facts for saying it has no facts? I apply it to moving parts no problem. More urban legend non-sense. This is often the claim by people who fail to properly apply it and/or do not allow it to cure for the proper amount of time.

    So, I shared HD pictures of these finer detailed items you mention and still you want to think what is debunked with actual HD photos?

    Lab tests don't mean anything to me, real world use is what I look for. You can hype and over-bloat "lab" results all day long.

    Because their marketing is better (website to if I might add).

    .mil spec generates sales just like the zombie stuff does.

    You are also under the assumption that I am implying that other coatings don't work, but I challenge you to quote me saying otherwise.

    It is just the DuraCoating urban legends get old, its nothing more than the "Glock or 1911?" discussion of the finishing market.
     
  9. azgsmith

    azgsmith Member

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    Gun coat

    Guncoat from Brownells comes in an aerosol in a a variety of colors and does not chip like the ceramic coatings etc.
     
  10. TITAN308

    TITAN308 Member

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    I'm all for aerosol on non detailed items (I use Rustolleum Hi Temp for barrels) - but will never match any sort of finish applied by airbrush or an HVLP gun. :D
     
  11. RogersPrecision

    RogersPrecision Member

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    Mere shallow curiosity.
    But why are you offering this service for free?
     
  12. TITAN308

    TITAN308 Member

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    Because I like doing it.

    Sadly its one of those hobbies where you eventually run out of your own stuff to finish and to continue doing it you must find stuff to finish.

    The idea is quite simple - people like new finishes - and I like the work behind said finishes.

    And thus you have "at cost" offerings from me.
     
  13. bainter1212

    bainter1212 Member

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    Just my two cents: google "john norrels moly resin". I have used it many times and I love it. Requires lots of prep as others have noted for duracoat. You'll need an airbrush for sure. Requires pre and post heating, my home oven worked perfectly.

    "One Fish" Bainter
     
  14. NCsmitty

    NCsmitty Member

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    I parkerize every barrel and action and bottom metal, prior to coating with Duracoat. Clean is the key to adhesion, and after a few years now the Duracoat has become hard and nearly impervious to marking. I've not used the other brands of coatings, as I have had no need to try them. Harbor Freight airbrush running 10lbs of regulated air on a slightly warm surface using many light coats, does a great job with no errors. I'm happy with the results.


    NCsmitty
     
  15. bodam

    bodam Member

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    I've also started durocoating and have had very good results.

    We just ordered Ceracoat and are going to start that this weekend. A little more involved, but supposedly has a more durable finish.

    I guess we will see...
     
  16. TITAN308

    TITAN308 Member

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    NC is correct, the ideal thing to do before Duracoating is to parkarize the surface where applicable.

    I substitute a 300 grit rub down and an hour soak in a warm water & TSP bath. Blow the part dry with a compressor and rub her down with Acetone as the final step.

    Has worked fine for me so far.
     
  17. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Nooooo... an urban legend is like "alligators living in the sewers" -- a story based on rumor of something someone else claims to have seen.

    When I say "I prefer" and "Seems to me..." I am stating my experiences, preferences, or opinions based on what I personally have seen. When I say I have seen both finishes chip at edges, I have. Not flaking off, just chipping at impact or hard wear spots.

    Duracoat can indeed be applied much thicker than GunKote should be, and often is. This produces a softened look at lettering and details which is not to my tastes. Maybe you produce different results. Hey, cool!

    You can't deny what I prefer, believe, or have seen, and you also cannot claim that my own preferences or observations come from the legends of urban culture. Ok? :)

    Now, I have SUCCESSFULLY applied both finishes. I happen to prefer GunKote.

    That is a fact.

    Whatever you like, or happen to enjoy doing is totally up to you.
     
  18. TITAN308

    TITAN308 Member

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    I will say that DuraCoat is less forgiving. No argument there.

    But even when you say you have witnessed something crack, that still does not invalidate what I am saying :)

    Chipping is attributed to one thing - adhesion failure. Anytime a finish "breaks off" that means it did not have proper bite into the surface.

    Now any finish is subject to damage if subjected to blows directly. Yes edges are more prone to damage than flat surfaces. But unless the finish is literally absorbed into the metal completely, any exterior type finish is going to be weaker than this method.

    I'm not discounting your experiences, but offering a likely explanation for what you saw or experienced.
     
  19. Mac's

    Mac's Member

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    Well of course it's an adhesion problem! Any finish that's applied onto any surface has to adhere to it and that's where the problem is. That problem applies to all finishes: Unless it's part of the base material on a molecular level, it's only a surface coating and as such, can chip. Poorly applied finishes or poor finishes will chip more easily than others that are higher quality but they will all chip if subjected to enough force. This is why Bluing or Parkerizing will not chip. They are surface conversions. To claim that your application of duracoat will NEVER chip is ridiculous.

    Advertsing is a very misleading thing. It's like saying: Made with 100% beef". Does that mean it's all 100% beef or only that there's some 100% beef in it? Developing a name from the ground up with advertising, etc is not the same as developing the product.

    Yup, the "Kote" family of products have been used by engine people for close to fourty years now. However, they all started out as off-shoots from the process of suspending Mollybdenum Disulfide particles in a phenolic based resin and applying that resin to a metal surface. The one that started their fame was the 2300 Series firearms finish. It was developed from the ground up for use by the U.S. Navy on weapons.

    Uhmmm...what? Ok, I'll try to answer that one anyway. Duracoat has no test results available anywhere. Their web site won't even supply MSDS information! Gunkote has a lot of test results performed by U.S. companies and the military, the South African Navel Logistics Dept, etc.

    Lab tests serve a purpose and are used as a comparison. Who wants to sit there and watch a piece of metal coated with assorted finishes sit in a bucket of salt water for the next ten years? Labs accelerate the process with tests in adverse conditions. Accusing me of hyping test results is simply the result of not having any lab tests results for your favorite finish.

    NOPE! Zombie stuff is pure advertising. Mil-Spec means it has been tested and accepted by the military for use on certain parts. Yes, Mil-Spec is used for advertising but only after the rating has been applied. It's kind of curious though....there no longer seems to be a Mil-Spec rating for duracoat!

    WOW! Are you a politician in real life? That's a serious double-speak sentence if I ever heard one!

    I never said that duracoat was a bad finish. I guess it's ok for certain things but I refuse to apply it to any of our Customers firearms. The reason for that is simple: We apply our finishes to a lot of working type firearms. Tactical entry shotguns, sniper weapon systems, law enforcement duty weapons, suppressors and other assorted Class III stuff, etc. I often get asked: Will it hold up to this chemical or that type of environment, etc. I have to be able to answer those questions. With Gunkote, I either have the answers in my files or can contact the manufacturer and get the answer. With duracoat, I have nothing. No answers, no specs, nothing.

    By the way: Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm assuming you don't have an FFL. (Yes, that is a real assumption) How can you take possession of "Controlled Items" like frames, receivers, etc. from your gunsmith who does have an FFL if no "Temporary Transfer" to you is made? Per ATF, a private person (Non-FFL) can ship a controlled item to a licensed gunsmith and have it returned directly to him/her. Per ATF: That item must remain in the FFL holders possession until it is shipped back to the owner via common carrier. If ATF makes an inspection of the gunsmiths inventory, which includes all controlled items from customers and that item is not on the premises, the 'smith better have a good explantion! The reason that I'm asking, is because we do contract work for several tactical weapons builders and we always have to do a Temporary Transfer from them to us and then back again. Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
    Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All.
    Mac's Shootin' Irons
    http://www.shootiniron.com
     
  20. TITAN308

    TITAN308 Member

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    So that means you can't? I never said one was inferior to the other. I simply made it a point to attempt to intercept more DuraCoat bashing using urban legends.

    You are not the first to seem upset that I have figured out (and verified with the ATF directly) how to do this. More to the point it is quite rude to even ask this.

    Lets make thing one clear, you are not concerned, you want to find a reason to discredit someone. If you were concerned, you would have taken up this topic in PMs.

    Very unprofessional.
     
  21. Mac's

    Mac's Member

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    The only way for you to legally take possession from an FFL holder of a "Controlled Item" (Frames, receivers, Class III items, etc) that were given into his possession in person or via shipping from a private person (Customer) is:
    A...For you to have an FFL
    B...For you to do the finish work there at the licensed premises. In other words: The item never really leaves the FFL holders premises.

    Nothing else is legal. Rude and unprofessional? Nope! Anybody that ships firearms to any gunsmith without verifying an FFL is foolish. You can call it subcontracting, etc. but if you don't have an FFL and you're in possession of controlled items that were given to you by an FFL holder that were given to him by a private person for the purpose of gunsmithing work, refinishing, etc. and you're not on his business premises with those items, you're not in compliance with the law. Post the letter from ATF. Post a link to the pertinent ATF regulation. Perhaps you misunderstood the ATF regulations? You, as a private person, can do refinishing work, etc. as long as it's not your primary income. However, you can not ship or receive via shipping any controlled items.

    Rude and unprofessional is when you tell somebody "As far as me and my local FFL and your concern - to be quite blunt - its not really any of your business the arrangement I have with them. " That's a quote from your October 3, 2012 post where you responded to a person asking about your FFL. Of course it's any potential customers concern if you're legal or not. Post the last five of your FFL! Post the last five of your Dealers FFL! Post something to show that you're legal to even be in possession of a firearm!

    Oh and by the way: You never responded to any of my statements. Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
    Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All.
    Mac's Shootin' Irons
    http://www.shootiniron.com
     
  22. TITAN308

    TITAN308 Member

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    By all means, please share your factual knowledge on my illegal operation. You seem to have an intimate understanding of how business is handled where I am at.

    I'll wait right here.

    If you can't; then you should be ashamed as one business trying to smear another entity, out of the blue, with no provocation or reasoning.

    Do you honestly think the staff of this forum, as well as a few select others, would allow a thread offering services to its members to exist if it was a sham?

    You need to mind your own business and worry about your business and not other peoples. The only clueless party here is you and your baseless accusations. And for what reason? Who knows at this point.

    I don't know who you are, what your business is, but you on the other hand might as well be a fly on the wall where I am at because you have perfect knowledge of everything.

    Pathetic. All for what? Cause your a KG fan? A CereKote fan? Some vile hatred for DuraCoat? Good grief... pathetic is right.

    This conversation is officially over. What you think or assume is irrelevant.
     
  23. Mac's

    Mac's Member

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    TITAN308:.....I think it's you who should be ashamed. Business where you're at is required to be conducted under the same legal requirements as where I'm at. They are Federal laws. Illegal firearms operations are a blight to those of us who work hard to be legal. They give the rest of us a bad name and help to make all gunners look bad in the eyes of the public. I've asked you some simple questions. Prove that you're legal to be receiving controlled items. You have accused me of being rude and unprofessional. Yet, you're the one who's resorting to insults and smears. I don't know anything about your business or you. I have not insulted you but I have asked some questions. They're only tough if you can't answer them.

    Are you legal to be receiving controlled items? If so, how without an FFL?

    Yes, it is my business! It's all of our business....every single person in the firearms community. You've stated in previous posts that you are not making a profit. You've stated that you loose money doing this. You've even stated that it's a charity sevice. (December 27, 2011) Sorry, but anybody who's contemplating sending you any firearms or parts needs to question your legality. Keep yer powder dry, Mac.
    Tuff-Gun Finishes. The Name Says It All.
    Mac's Shootin' Irons
    http://www.shootiniron.com
     
  24. TITAN308

    TITAN308 Member

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    Just for the record, MAC is unable to receive PMs - believe me I tried. So hopefully the mods will be by to purge his baseless rants from the thread.

    I personally apologize to the other participants (and staff) in this thread, as this argument had nothing to do with it at all.
     
  25. Al Thompson

    Al Thompson Moderator Staff Member

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    "Snip"
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
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