Gun Control crossing into other civil liberties Mental Health Privacy in NY State

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by grter, May 21, 2013.

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  1. grter

    grter Member

    May 2, 2013
    Ask any civil rights lawer and they will tell you that gun control by it's very nature has a way of inadvertantly crossing into other areas of civil liberties.

    One particular case and point is recently passed legislation (year 2013 no more that a few months so far) that requires psycologists and psychiatrists to report ANY patient who has made any threats of suicide or desire to harm others to the New York CRIMINAL division so that they can be put on a registry to prevent them from purchasing firearms.

    That violates patient doctor confidentiality and places the doctor in a position that would predispose him or her to report every threat just to keep them from getting into trouble, just in case.

    In the past doctors would call the police if in their proffessional opinion it was required and they did when necessary. I can say they are experts in their field and for the most part do a good job.

    Now it is not the trained professional who decides on the mental status of his patient but the police based on a couple of words or feelings that someone may express to the doctor.

    If the doctor fails to report it he had better be 100% perfect in all his diagnoses, which we all know is 100% impossible and 110% impossible for LEO who are not practicing physicians, or the doctor himself may face charges.

    What this means is if you are veteran who has just come back from a war and feeling depressed after witnessing your friends getting killed or whatever else war brings your way.

    If you tell your doctor the wrong thing the police may soon come knocking at your door to confiscate your guns. If you live with relatives who happen to have guns they may come over and confiscate your relatives firearms under threat of prosecution and incarceration because you happen to live in the same house.

    What else can this mean ? This means if prospective employers found out you are on a no firearms allowed list you may not get that job you worked so hard to qualify for. How secure is this information once it falls into the hands of the police.

    I would think anyone with a friend in the police department can find out your personal information. If a doctor were to reveal this to anyone without a really just cause (except for the police at this time) he could get the pants sued off of him or her.

    I doubt their would be any recourse if the information was leaked from the police. The criminal division has enough pull and lawers to bury any such lawsiuts unless you are lucky enough to come by absolute irrefutable proof which would be more unlikely than not.

    This is only going to make treating people more difficult since once this gets out many are going to fear seeking help and unfortanately they may have plenty to fear.
  2. Sniper66

    Sniper66 Member

    Jan 22, 2012
    NE Kansas
    I am a recently retired psychologist in Kansas. Over the nearly 40 years of my career, I had to declare 100s of people dangerous to themselves or others. Such work is fraught with problems and subsequent errors. Judges may choose to disregard expert testimony and declare a person dangerous or not for reasons that are unclear. So-called mental health experts, usually clinical social workers with minimal experience and inadequate training and knowledge, can declare a person dangerous or not. The patient can change their testimony, declare that they are no longer suicidal, and be discharged. Laws allowing involuntary commitment have changed repeatedly over many years and it cannot be shown to have had any impact on suicide rates. I do not have all the answers, but I have seen hundreds of cases that are baffling and I would not want to be the one to say a person should forfeit their right to own a firearm because of mental health issues.
  3. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Jan 3, 2003
    0 hrs east of TN
    You're completely wrong.
  4. hang fire

    hang fire Member

    Jan 8, 2012
    When it comes to guns, one doesn’t have to be paranoid to know "THEY" are out to get you.

    In the near future when the antis get it all down pat, here are some things that will be coming thanks to the Affordable Care Act.

    They are finding ever more and more so called debilitating mental issues for assigning to children, they will be tested in school, it will go into their medical records and made available to government officials.

    Already in some states, if anyone in the household has mental issues, it is illegal to have firearms in the home. I predict this will become law in other anti states, and become federal law also.

    Also "ALL" medical doctors will be required to make notes on any and all mental issues they think their patients may have. This too will be entered into medical records and made available to said government officials.

    Think it can’t happen, best think again. Already the IRS and Justice Department are in the news for spying on groups, organizations and individuals without their knowledge. This is also being downplayed by the government and their willing accomplices in the LSM. Both these government agencies (especially so the IRS) will be in charge of enforcing the rules and regulations contained in the ACA. Once all medical records are computerized and in government hands. It will be a simple and quick task to electronically list all persons with mental issues, and then require those households to report any and all firearms they may have.
  5. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

    May 2, 2012
    The Texas Hill Country
    That's why I'm making a Texas ten gallon hat completely out of tin foil, to keep the voices out.
  6. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

    Oct 6, 2009
    The problem is, psychology is still in its infancy, and us not currently reliable or standardize enough to call it a 'science' or really even ' medicine'... Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's quackery, I do feel it is useful, an even necessary, I just don't feel it is at the point where we can reliably determine who may be " unfit" to own a firearm..... Or if it is legally or ethically sound to do so....

    As it stands right now, I can go to 10 different doctors and get diagnosed with 12 possible metal illnesses...... Also, just how 'crazy' does someone have to be to lose their rights? There is no ' crazy-o-meter'.... It would have to be based solely upon the doctors opinion. What if you have 2 doctors who disagree?....what if 3 doctors disagree?... Then what?

    Also, is it even legal/ ethical to strip someone's rights solely because they have a mental illness?

    Would you deny someone's rights because they have cancer? What about aids? How about that guy in a wheel chair, does he get to keep his rights?

    Why should someone lose their rights because its their brain that is sick and not their heart , bones or liver ?
  7. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

    May 1, 2013
    Nope. The buzzwords to focus on are "danger to self or others." As long as the mental health professional/doctor/social worker etc does not declare you as a danger to self or others, then they are bound by confidentiality agreement. But if they have reasonable belief you will be a danger, they are obligated to report their suspicion.

    Buy them in multiple places. And in cash. So you know, they can't get you.
  8. GrOuNd_ZeRo

    GrOuNd_ZeRo Member

    May 15, 2006
    Oklahoma, USA
    I personally have been deemed 'suicidal' since I had 'ideations' and was voluntarily commited, if I was in NY I could've had my rights taken because I THOUGHT of suicide.

    Since I am in the Military I did have all my firearms taken for MONTHS before I got them back.

    My advice? If you do have THOUGHTS of SUICIDE I would NOT tell a Doctor/Social Worker/Ect however If you have thoughts of sincerely killing yourself I'd STRONGLY urge you to seek help.
  9. grter

    grter Member

    May 2, 2013
    No the key word here is SUSPICION and in a court it can swing both ways if you are not perfect in your diagnosis the force of law is now hanging over your head and whether you should or should not have known will now be decided in a court with possible punishment if it's decided "you should have known and reported"

    This is a law designed to put names into to the law enforcement database that they would otherwise not have access to no matter how you try to serve it up.

    Police are here to enforce laws and maintain order by punishing the offenders. They are enforcers not doctors and unless a crime is being commited or there is a CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER they have no business intruding into the affairs of the mentally ill and the professionals who treat them.

    Having a mental problem whether mild or severe does not make someone a criminal to be catorgorized and registered like a sex offender. Then you are stripped of your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS in this case your right to keep and bear arms. This can translate to things such as not being allowed to hunt turkey with your great great granpa's shotgun or whatever. Things like this only get worse with time now it's your 2nd ammendment rights later they may seek to deprive you of more constitutional rights.

    Most qualified mental health physicians are much more qualifed than any LEO to determine when a mental problem reaches the piont where the police have to be involved. They do not need a mandated reporter law hanging over their heads that is an obvious attempt by the criminal division to squeeze as much private information out of them as they can.

    God forbid a doctor makes a mistake in diagnosis or even worse saying too much without legal representation, even if he is not guilty they will not hesitate to make an example of what happens to doctors who do not report. You can try to dice this anyway you want but I have a suspicion (catchy word suspicion) that you damm know just as well as I do that is how exactly how it will play out. Throw in the media and before you know doctors may also wind up included in the witch hunt.
    Last edited: May 22, 2013
  10. jamesbeat

    jamesbeat Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    This is what happens when you try to predict the future to prevent crime.
    It's straight out of The Minority Report.
  11. answerguy

    answerguy Member

    Dec 26, 2002
    Bay City Michigan
    FWIW it's 'case in point'
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