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"Gun Free" Schools and Terrorism

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Mr. Designer, Sep 11, 2007.

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  1. Mr. Designer

    Mr. Designer Member

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    Another effect of "Gun Free" Schools. Tonight and all week long, Glenn Beck is reporting on the intelligence information we have been getting concerning terrorist looking to attack elementary schools. We have found floor plans of six US schools in Iraq. The schools were located in Georgia, Florida, Michigan, New Jersey, Oregon and California. I would advise all to watch.

    http://www.schoolsecurity.org/

    7 & 9 ET on CNN Headline News

    From CNN:
    Exposed: The Perfect Day
    For Islamic terrorists, the perfect day is a series of coordinated attacks that kill as many Americans and create as much chaos as possible. All next week, we'll take a closer look at one of the areas where we are most vulnerable to this kind of attack -- our schools. Don't miss Exposed: The Perfect Day. Every night at 7 and 9 p.m. ET.Tonight on CNN Headline News.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2007
  2. Blackbeard

    Blackbeard Member

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    Don't worry. If the terrorists bring a gun onto school grounds it'll go on their permanent record.
     
  3. PistolPackin'Papa

    PistolPackin'Papa Member

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    I live across from a elementry school in a town of 20,000. Because of pervert alerts from time to time, parents in this town are usually very conscious of strangers. Especially if they are walking close to the school. However, I have noticed strange cars parked within RPG range that have been parked for hours with folks just sitting inside a half block from school. (I call the cops when I see them.) There are just sooooo many ways to strike at a school. How do busy parents watch out for all of them?

    PPP
     
  4. churched

    churched Member

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    Watching schools and protecting our children while at school are not the jobs of parents. It is the job of the school it self and the police to protect our children from danger. But sadly neither party including the parents will catch every thing 100 percent of the time.
     
  5. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    No one here wants to live in the kind of society it would take to defend every school against a Belsan type attack. This is not the kind of thing you can defend against by eliminating gun free zones around schools or by arming the teachers, admin staff and custodians. You're talking about turning every elementary school in the country into a prison and expending the resources to defend it with the equivalent of a rifle platoon at the minimum.

    If terrorists were stupid enough to do this, there would be no stopping the rage of the American people. I don't see how this would help their cause at all.

    Jeff
     
  6. wheelgunslinger

    wheelgunslinger Member

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    And here I thought you'd gone and left us Mr. White. :)

    I'll agree with Jeff on all accounts. This wouldn't make sense to their cause to do this. But, I can imagine there are a few loose cannon in their more radical movements that might just give it a try.

    And, that would be the beginning of the end for all of them.
     
  7. MikeG

    MikeG Member

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    I believe the plan is to outrage Americans enough to go after all Muslims indiscriminately, not just the extremists and terrorists. If they can drag the rest of the Islamic world into the fight on their side, it'll be very bad for us.
     
  8. JLStorm

    JLStorm Member

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    Even if we did make the schools into prisons...it wouldnt help...racial profiling would get in the way after all.
     
  9. Aaryq

    Aaryq Member

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    Bingo, MikeG. YOU hit the nail right on the head. If we can go after the Muslims of all races (and all of the Middle Easterners regardless of religion), we will actually help their cause and use our reaction to strengthen their cause one hundred-fold.
     
  10. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    The Belsan attack was supposed to be the outrage that sparked a civil war. That didn't happen. All in all it was a costly operation that didn't accomplish it's mission.

    I don't see our nation indiscriminately attacking all Muslims in response to this. Sure there would be a radical fringe that would scream for it, but I think our response would be more measured...terrible, but measured.

    That's not to say it's impossible, I just don't think it's all that likely.

    The question is, what can we really do at our level to defend against it? I'm afraid the answer is, not much.

    A couple CCW holders and a school resource officer banding together to fight off the terrorists might make a good chapter in a techno-thriller or part of a movie script, but in real life, it's not going to happen. The terrorists will come in big enough numbers with enough firepower to render that type of defense hopeless.

    Jeff
     
  11. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    We've evidently been studying up on Beslan. Not publicly but certainly within the LE community. When Mr. White said there may not be a lot we can do he is reflecting what I've read. Once the op starts we are pretty much spectators. Any attempt to interfere will no doubt be played in our media as a screwup on our part. Hence, then need for preparation before the attack.

    What I don't have a handle on is how the president will handle the howls of rage and demands for revenge that will inevitably result. A very wise man who has worked his entire life in the middle east told be at the beginning of 911 that this country will be faced with moral choices which will stretch our civilization in ways we've never experienced. He very clearly said we will be asked to do things which are unthinkable 10 years ago.
     
  12. SJG26

    SJG26 member

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    Unfortunately---there won't be:

    "If terrorists were stupid enough to do this, there would be no stopping the rage of the American people. I don't see how this would help their cause at all. "


    I disagree---there would be much wringing of hands and loud protests---but what EXACTLY would most Americans do-----roll over and let politicians discuss ways to fix the system,

    Only about 99% of the reading audience here would take up arms and actively protect our children on a daily basis------most others will roll over and let the "government" do something !
     
  13. Hazel

    Hazel Member

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    While that may be true, it's a whole lot better than doing nothing and just letting the terrorists kill hundreds (or at the very, very least, dozens) of innocent children without even trying to fight back. Besides, even if arming teachers and administrators wouldn't do a single thing in a full-scale terrorist attack, there are many other possible situations in which it would be extremely useful and would prevent a lot of needless deaths.

    I apologize if I got the wrong impression from what you said, but I felt that that needed to be said.
     
  14. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    SJG26 said;

    Let's be real here, just for a minute. Belsan was a paramilitary operation, they brought in a platoon sized force of terrorists with enough firepower to overwhelm a much larger force then they expected to encounter at the school.

    There is absolutely nothing short of pulling your children out of school and dropping out of society that you can do to actively protect your children from that threat. There is little the government can do except to try to keep tabs on those who would conduct such an atrocity. That's not an impossible thing to do considering the size of a Belsan type operation.

    The pistol or revolver in your waistband and the AR, AK, shotgun FAL, SKS whatever in your home or automobile are not magic talisman that will keep all evil away. The 99% of those who are reading this and who would arm themselves and actively protect our children on a daily basis would have no training, no organization and would most likely soon be very bored with the day in day out routine of nothing happening.

    There are a lot of things that armed citizens can do. Mounting a credible force to protect every school in the US isn't one of them. The government doesn't have the resources and we wouldn't want to pay the bill for them to attempt it.

    The threat has to be fought in other ways. We simply can't make every school in America a hard target.

    Jeff
     
  15. Mauserguy

    Mauserguy Member

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    Churched, I agree that protecting the schools is a job for the police and the schools, unfortunately, they are not doing anything. They are just teaching Caesar Chavez facts and leftist pacifism. In Colorado, they aren't even allowing the kids to play tag because it might hurt somebody's feelings. You know what will really hurt somebody's feelings? An Islamic attack will. We are pretty stupid.
    Mauserguy
     
  16. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Mauserguy,

    Please post your plan that would protect the school from being over run by 30 terrorists armed with automatic weapons and high explosives.

    Jeff
     
  17. cwmcgu2

    cwmcgu2 Member

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    I was talking to a ex Marine, special forces, and military contractor (and I know he is telling the truth about his qualifications) who has started a new operation to help schools plan for active shooter scenarios. He said that after he set up his website he began getting a number of hits from Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, Saudi Arabia and so on. The extremists know how utterly unprepared we are to protect out children.
     
  18. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    We're not talking about an active shooter scenario. We're talking about a platoon sized force taking over a school. Two very different threats.

    Jeff
     
  19. F4GIB

    F4GIB Member

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    It's not 50 single officer squad cars responding (after the fact) from all over the county. The counterforce has to be IN PLACE when the attack STARTS.
    Interesting, the counterforce doesn't appear to need to be as strong as the attackers (I suppose the military rule of thumb that defense is to offense as 4 is to 1 ratio applies in some fashion).

    Here's an answer proven to reduce, not eliminate, the risk of terrorist attacks.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200409022215.asp

    Is this the perfect solution to a platoon sized attack? No.

    But remember the military axiom that "no plan survives first contact with the enemy." At least in the Israeli approach, that first contact occurs immediately and the situation favors the defenders. It's no guarantee of victory but it'll sure F. U. the terrorist's plan. Remember United Flight 93.
     
  20. Steve499

    Steve499 Member

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    Even if we put up signs on the doors? They wouldn't be able to use guns, can't take those into a school. We'd have to get real creative with their arsenal menu so we covered all the bases. That ought to work!
     
  21. JLStorm

    JLStorm Member

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    Comparing Israel to the US is like putting a professional boxer's experienced child in the ring with a complete novice his first day in the gym. People in Israel grow up seeing violence first hand, they were all in the military at some point, and guns on the streets are accepted. They are much more realistic and hardened than the American people that live sheltered lives and sit around eating hoho's all day. They also know their enemy well, they have basically been at war since Israel was formed. They are seasoned fighters raised by more seasoned fighters.

    The US is fat, lazy, and dependent on the government...comparing the two is probably insulting to anyone from Israel. I love the United States and everything the constitution stands for, I wouldnt want to live anywhere else, but to compare us to Israel just isnt realistic, at least not as a whole.
     
  22. F4GIB

    F4GIB Member

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    Unfortunately, the choice isn't ours. It's that of the terrorists.
     
  23. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    F4GIB said;
    I agree. But you can't put a large enough force into a school to repel this kind of attack at any kind of reasonable cost and you can't harden the school physical plant to make it very difficult to attack at any kind of reasonable cost either.

    Yes and those attacks were carried out by single terrorists and small groups. Belsan was carried out by a trained and equipped force who came in prepared to overwhelm a much larger force.

    Your plan of arming people in the school would be no deterrant. None. There is no way they could assemble from their widespread locations within the school and put up any kind of credible resistance.

    The rule of thumb ratio of attackers to defenders is 3-1 by the way. But it's immaterial. Because in your scenario the attackers will overwhelm the defenders 10-1 or better as they meet the defenders one or two at a time. It would take a dedicated security force to stop a Belsan type of attack. Armed faculty, no matter how well trained and motivated would be nothing but a speed bump as the terrorists overwhelmed the school. One man with a gun against 10 or more willing to die to kill him is no deterrent.

    How quickly do you think you could assemble your force of armed staff in a typical American elementary school? How your armed staff member going to deal with the terrorists herding a classroom of children down the hall in front of them? Going to fire into the kids to stop the terrorists? Or are they going to hand over their weapons and surrender to keep the terrorists from harming the children?

    Jeff
    '
     
  24. cnorman18

    cnorman18 Member

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    ?

    I really don't get it. It's all but impossible to protect a school from a "platoon-sized force", therefore we do nothing at all?

    Maybe we're "not talking about an active-shooter scenario", but I would think anyone paying attention would have noticed that we have had plenty of THOSE--and it clearly ought to be part of the conversation. Even a small number of armed and trained teachers and staff could have prevented at least some of the deaths in school shootings over the last decade or so.

    Moreover, terrorists don't ALWAYS attack in huge crowds. Small groups are much more common, if only because they are harder to spot in advance. ANY armed resistance is better than none, as the Israelis have learned the hard way.

    It would be all but impossible to defend a bank against a "platoon-sized force", too, but for some reason they still commonly have armed guards on the premises. Is our money more worth protecting than our kids?

    As usual, the Israelis are getting it right. They have to.

    (They're not afraid of "ethnic profiling", either. "You don't like being searched because you're an Arab? Then tell your people to stop killing us.")
     
  25. JLStorm

    JLStorm Member

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    I wish the US had the balls to say that, besides its not racial profiling, its playing the odds and if lots of blonde hair blue eyed people started committing the same crimes we would start playing different odds.
     
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