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gun "game" gripes? what are they?

Discussion in 'Competition Shooting' started by john l, Mar 2, 2003.

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  1. john l

    john l Member

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    guys,
    By way of introduction, I have been involved in IDPA ( club officer level) for the past few years (1998) and have organized the Utah Defensive Pistol League's (IDPA affiliate) non-sanctioned, of course 3 gun match branch. We had 5 matches last year that I was match director, and this year Larry Correia is on board as asst match director.
    So I hear now and again that IDPA is just as "non-real" as IPSC and other stuff that tends to raise the back of my neck hair just a bit, I would like to say that the two IDPA clubs that I have been involved with have been real good at putting on tactically correct matches. I feel that if you want to go to an IDPA match and have the outlook of a martial artist, then you have a venue to do that, and if it is more like a game, then you can go and have a good time too.
    The main problem from a match-organizational level is that if you wanted to stay "tactically correct" at an IDPA match, then you would have 4-5 stages, one or two targets at each one, and you would probably have 15 total match rounds shot, because after all, the real life encounter would be an ave. of 1-3 shots fired total.(per gunfight-FBI stats) Now, I could guarantee if i showed up at a match and shot 15 rounds, I wouldn't come back, so there has to be a little bit more out there for even the martial artist type of guy ( which is the category I feel more comfortable in).
    So my question is founded from the motivation that I want to ensure IDPA stays real as possible, and that is, what do you guys want to see happen at a match that keeps the match "real" as possible? What pisses you off, what do you like?
    Thanks,
    John L
     
  2. FPrice

    FPrice Member

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    John L...

    I have not participated in any such competitions since the mid-80's when I shot IPSC back in Washington State. The primary reason has been time, I just don't have much extra. Personal and professional reasons.

    When I participated I shot primarily against myself. While I tried to be somewhat competitve I realized that I was not going to be able to put the time in to raise my performance level to the point where I could win. So I settled for trying to improve my skills as much as I could, have fun, and try to learn something.

    I hope to try IDPA sometime in the near future, maybe at the S&W Academy.

    What makes me upset is when people try to make the "game" (and it all is a game in a manner of speaking) so dependant on competition that they forget the "fun" or enjoyment factor. By all means make it challenging, encourage people to try harder and raise their own personal performance levels, but try to keep it enjoyable so that the lowest level shooter has a reason to come back.

    My .024 cents worth (two cents adjusted for inflation).
     
  3. Jeeper

    Jeeper Member

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    Since I am one of the people that definately belives that IDPA is just as gamey as USPSA here is my 2cents

    Pet peeves:
    Some squads disregarding rules to make it gamey(er)
    RO's that let people not use cover or do tac reloads

    Suggestions:
    Do a par time stage where the hit count becomes the most important.
    You could do a stage where you cant see the course ahead of time.
    Have them start back to the targets and use stick on guns and cell phones to change the course around so they cant plan where to shoot first

    I think that IDPA should be about draws from concealment to engage a nearby target and then moving to cover and engaging more target. That or draw and engage 2-3 and move. Practicing close range quick shots and then moving.

    IDPA will always be a "game" as long as time is involved
     
  4. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    My pet peeve is missing the target. :D

    I think that it is always going to be a challenge to have that balance of fun vs. realism vs. game vs. tactical correctness. You make it too realistic and you turn off some shooters. You make it too gamey and you turn off others. You make it too athletic and you lose your older guys and those that are out of shape, you make it not athletic enough you tick off the young and healthy. Some shooters thrive on challenges that they aren't good at. Others whine and leave.

    It is tough to make everybody happy, but I think our local IDPA club does a pretty good job. Challenging stages, realistic enough to be good practice, but not so unrealistic that they are silly.
     
  5. faustulus

    faustulus Member

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    I look at IDPA and IPSC as games, they are our version of golf. Sure we can learn from them (both of them) but they still have rules and they still have points.
    As far as the average gun fight...
    no one pratices for the average anything. You prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
    My pet peeves have mostly to do with the rules.
    I hate the "get shot while You fiddle with this mag" reload.
    I never understood why you couldn't drop to your knees.
    And various equipment rules vex me.
    All that said IDPA is still fun. A nice way to let off steam with friends on the weekend and a heck of a answer to "what's your handicap?"
     
  6. Gary G23

    Gary G23 Member

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    I have shot IDPA since the beginning and have shot the last three National Championships. What gripes me is when you go to a club level match and they don't enforce IDPA rules because "it's just a club match" or they let people use illegal equipment because "it's just a club match". I think the sport would be better off if the rules were enforced at ALL levels.
     
  7. Smoke

    Smoke Member

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    Forget the "Tac" reload rule.

    I train to strip a mag if its empty or fouled up. I never try to retain a mag I've jerked for any reason.

    IDPA is a game but it can be a useful tool to add a level of stress to your training. I run an IDPA course exactly as I have been trained. SO I usually don't place very high, even though my shots may be very good.
     
  8. charleym3

    charleym3 Member

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    I started shooting IPSC in 1985 and gave it up in 1991 due to burn-out. When I tried it again in 1998 and nearly got into a fist fight with an arrogant jack-*** who was walking on my magazines and kicking them out of the way so that he could get his karma right while he was shadow shooting the stage.
    I decided to try IDPA in 1999. Found a great club in North Central NC. I've designed a few stages. I'm an SO. I have handed out procedurals, FTDRs and DQs to deserving individuals. I have also coached shooters through stages rather than see them flat blow it. The sword cuts both ways, as I've also had my fair share of procedurals, HONT, and FTNs. I've learned that some rules rigid some are flexible.

    Things I'd like to see if IDPA is supposed to provide realism:
    Allow waist packs at all levels - They are slower than a holster, but some people, including me at times, carry that way. If the muzzle points in an unsafe direction DQ! Shooters choice.
    Drop the revolver friendly concept. The streets don't provide shooting opportunities that are even multiples of 6. IDPA shouldn't either. Did I mention that I carry a wheel gun daily?
    Some stages should have an ocean of no shoots - If I'm in line a Blockbuster at 9:00 on Friday night and 3 guys come in with shotguns, things will get interesting.
    Longest range shot should be 10 yards.
    require all mag carriers be behind the center line including revolvers. I carry my speed loaders behind the center line in real life as anyone who carries a wheel gun does. The "two infront of the holster" thing is just plain stupid.

    If its a game:
    Add more house clearing stages. Those are always lots of fun. Take the round count up to around 20. Make it seperate from the standard match and let folks go through as many times as they want for $X per run. Give back a percentage in Lewis scoring system.
    I like the thinking stages. Flip a coin. The color that you see is the one that you DO NOT shoot.
    Add shots out to as much as 40 or 50 yards.
    Require a TAC reload, then require the shooter to used the saved ammunition later in the stage.

    Things I'd like to see in general :
    Add a .22 caliber division. I know people really do carry them.
    Include 7 and 8 shot revolvers in CDP.

    There's more but that's enough rants for one post.
     
  9. Archie

    Archie Member

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    Make the course test shooting ability.

    Not magazine size. My biggest pet peeve is the "twenty round burst syndrome".

    Check out the original Mexican Defense Course. It's a well thought out, fairly comprehensive test of gun-handling ability.

    Constant reloads (unless one misses a lot) are not realistic.

    "Tactical" reloads, involving a juggling act with points off for dropping, are NOT done under time. One tops off one's magazine when one has a chance to do so. Usually when one is not being shot at.

    Some of us do wear exposed holsters. The IDPA concealed rule is not universal.

    Solid hits count more than fast noises.

    In my world, I more no shoot than shoot targets. Always. Many more.

    All misses count!!!!
     
  10. Quantrill

    Quantrill Member

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    Finding the darn brass after shooting your stint. Quantrill
     
  11. WESHOOT2

    WESHOOT2 Member

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    MY BIGGEST GRIPES

    1) A$$holes with egos.

    2) Gear weenies, whether it's the STI/SV/Glock/H&K-guys or the tactical weenies (anyone reading this actually ever meet a real tactical puke?).

    3) Cheaters, whether it's PF or standing in front of a no-shoot hole.

    4) Shooters without sportsmanship.

    5) Non-helpers.

    6) ANY unsafe gun-handling.

    7) Whiners.

    Notice I've managed to avoid mentioning anything about rules?
     
  12. charleym3

    charleym3 Member

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    Okay,
    Non-helpers and stage lawyers, The people who want every advantage so they ask things like "What do you consider 51% coverage? How far can we lean over the edge of the shooting line?" Which has me thinking that I need a shirt that says, "Just shut up and shoot the damn stage."
     
  13. WESHOOT2

    WESHOOT2 Member

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    PAGE (SHIRTSLEEVES?) FROM IPSC

    I'll never forget the guys from Virginia wearing shirts with embroidered sleeves saying "Whine and I'll kill you" (my personal fav) and "Shut up and shoot".
     
  14. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    Range Lawyers are scum. :)
     
  15. WESHOOT2

    WESHOOT2 Member

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    SCUM RESPONDS

    I keep a USPSA rulebook in my purse, and I have them 'hole-judging' thingies in my range bag (I think).

    All that said, I don't really care.
    Survivor, not gamesman.

    Oh, and scum, too. :neener:
     
  16. charleym3

    charleym3 Member

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    Interesting / humerous story behind my becoming an SO. I had designed a stage. It was pretty straigt forward. 9 rounds required as I wanted to keep round dumping to a minimum. The match director had me shoot the other SOs through. One of them had a reputation for whining though I had never really seen him in action.
    At the brief he asked no questions. When I had him on the line and asked if he had any questions he came up with 5. He was the next to last shooter and had watched everyone else shoot. The 4th question got him a response of "Do what you think best and I'll decide whether it is a procedural or an FTDR." When he asked the next question which was even more obscure than the last, I responded "Just shut up and shoot the MF thing... THE SHOOTER IS READY! STAND BY! " BEEP!

    The match director told me later that he wanted to see if I would get rattled, and asked me to take the SO course and get the certification. The shooter was put up to it. We all had a good laugh.
     
  17. Archie

    Archie Member

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    One other thing.

    The shooter should be ready to "load and be ready" or "be ready" (depending on if you have a load circle) when they get in the shooting box.

    I get so sick of watching some doofus adjust his cap, pull up his pants, "pinch check" to make sure he loaded, do two or three shadow draws, lean out of the box to see that last target, "pinch check" to make sure he loaded, take two or three cleansing breaths, chant his manrta, "pinch check" to make sure he loaded, kick a couple pieces of brass away from his feet, throw the salt onto the range, "pinch check" to make sure he loaded, re-adjust his cap....

    If he was in a real gunfight, the coroner would be here by now.

    How about something like the stage starts no less than 15 seconds from the time the shooter is directed to the starting box?
     
  18. WESHOOT2

    WESHOOT2 Member

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    I CAN'T EVEN PRONOUNCE "COWBOY SHOOTING"

    Good thing it's just a game.
     
  19. faustulus

    faustulus Member

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    Archie,
    I bet you aren't a big baseball fan :)

    The only thing that really bugs me about the shooters is the born-again converts. The guys who preach that the only way to do it is the "tatical way" I shoot to have fun. I don't take it too seriously, it is after all a game.
     
  20. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

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    What bugs me about "Games" is the far reaching and inappropriate use of the term " game" when discussing them.


    "Game" implies "utter waste of time".

    Skills tests like 3-gun comps, IDPA, and to a limited extent IPSC can be likened to exams, in that they show you what you need to work on with your "homework" (training).


    another thing that urks me is all the rifle stages i keep hearing about in 3 gun events that take place at pistol distances.

    While that is a good skill to have, longer range stuff is needed.
     
  21. BerettaNut92

    BerettaNut92 Member

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    Equipment rules in some divisions.

    I can change my sights, trigger, guiderod, etc. to improve performance.

    But I can't put on pearl grips?!?! What the heck?
     
  22. faustulus

    faustulus Member

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    I disagree, the first olympic games tested early warriors.
    All work and no play...
     
  23. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    Andrew, unfortunatly most of the country doesn't have access to any really good rifle ranges. Our local range that we use for competition is great except that we have one range where we can shoot out to 100 yards and another range where we can shoot out to 180-200. The other 8 bays are all 25-50 yards, not exactly big time rifle distance. But you do what you can. There are other places we can shoot where we can get WAY out there, but they suck for anything else.

    And also there is plenty of evidence in support of close range rifle use. If you want to look at it as realistic rifle training I think that close and fast can be just as important as long and precise. And just because somebody maybe a good traditional rifle shot doesn't mean that they don't need some practice at closer quarter fighting. It is an entirely different skill set, and one that I think needs development just as much as long range. (not to knock long range, because if I have a choice I'm going to shoot at the bad guys from far away!) :)
     
  24. bedlamite

    bedlamite Member

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    I pretty much gave up on Cowboy shooting when I ran into Weshoot2's entire list at one match.
     
  25. Jon Coppenbarger

    Jon Coppenbarger Member

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    the folks that think just because you have a match one day a month that you are stopping their right to shoot.

    private range
    they have 353 days
    read the monthly or other news letters that are put out.


    and the folks when I go out and practice that say you are not one of those shooters are you.
     
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