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Gun Owners defends machine guns in court brief

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Aim1, Jan 7, 2016.

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  1. Aim1

    Aim1 Member

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    Anyone ever seeing machine guns being legal without all the regulations and fees?




    http://www.onenewsnow.com/legal-courts/2016/01/06/gun-owners-defends-machine-guns-in-court-brief





     
  2. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    No.

    I'd say the best we can hope for is having the prohibition on post-86 MG's being transferable removed. And that's pretty unlikely to happen
     
  3. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Nobody thought the CLEO signoff requirement was ever going away either.
     
  4. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    I wouldn't call that a victory, since trusts were a way around that before, and since the flipside is that every member of the trust now has to get a background check for each item added. Not a big deal if it's just you, or you and a spouse, I guess, but for some folks with a half dozen or more trustees, and especially those of us who live somewhere that imposes a poll tax to run the checks ($10/person here), it's 1 step forward, 10 steps back, only beneficial for filing as an individual. And that's exactly why they did it; it won't do away with the trust method, but it will get more people filing as individuals. The problem with filing as an individual is that if anything happens to you, it's much more difficult to deal with your NFA possessions than if they belong to a trust, where the other trustees can decide at their leisure. You can even have your minor children on the trust and, though they cannot possess the weapons until they are 21, they will be entitled to them. If filed as individual, though, those weapons have to go through a probate and then be transferred to the heir/beneficiary through an SOT, which means another BGC, another $200 payment, and another months long wait before that person may possess their rightful property. Also, a trust allows any trustee to lawfully possess any of the weapons belonging to the trust.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2016
  5. captain awesome

    captain awesome Member

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    I will try not to get my hopes up. it would be nice to be able to buy a new full auto lower though.
     
  6. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    You can make a strong case that the a near-total ban like the Hughes Amendment is not compatible with the 2nd Amendment under either strict or even intermediate scrutiny which would revert back to the NFA (which is very strict in and of itself). I'd love to loose my investment.

    Mike
     
  7. joem1945

    joem1945 Member

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    "1986 McClure-Volkmer legislation, which prohibits the manufacture and possession of machine guns by Americans unless they were registered prior to the date of the act."

    I doubt that will ever happen. If it does the market value on pre 86 FA will drop like a rock. There might be many people opposed to loosing a bunch of money on their FA collection.
     
  8. vamo

    vamo Member

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    There would be some, but lets keep in mind that current full-auto owners are the in the vast minority. Also to own one you probably really really like guns and would generally be in favor of less restrictions.
     
  9. TruthTellers

    TruthTellers member

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    No, I think it's more likely that we can get SBS and SBR's off the NFA list and make them legal to buy after a background check and filling out a 4473. No more $200 tax stamp or months long wait to buy a shotgun that's two inches shorter than what's legal now.

    The SBS and SBR laws have been rendered antiquated for at least 20-30 years now, it's time to get them off the NFA list because we're only 18 years away from the National Firearms Act's 100th anniversary.

    If we let everything that was passed by that law, short of destructive devices and machine gun regulation, last a century then we should be ashamed we didn't speak out more.
     
  10. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    That's like saying owners of grandfathered pre-ban stuff oppose ditching their states' AWBs :scrutiny:. The benefits of freedom far outweigh the money, even for MGs (and the MG cost is often dwarfed by their ammunition consumption anyway)

    TCB
     
  11. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    They were superfluous bravo sierra the moment handguns were struck from NFA status. The more recent phenomena of pistols built on rifle actions in rifle calibers only serves to magnify the stupidity of that language.

    In truth, we probably have a better chance of getting SBR and suppressor removed from title II status than anything else. Their popularity in recent years, combined with the fact that it's easily demonstrable even to non-gun folks that nothing about them makes them actually or perceptually more dangerous than common title I weapons, gives us a pretty good shot.

    Machine guns, however, still have a stigma to most folks, and will likely always be perceived as more dangerous/lethal than single fire weapons. Much more uphill battle on that front. Same goes for DDs, and, to a degree, SBS.
     
  12. MErl

    MErl Member

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    Is that bolded quote accurate and attributed to the right person?

    edit:
    Or am I misreading that as his argument and the actual meaning is that the opponent's argument boils down to the quote.
     
  13. Gimmered

    Gimmered Member

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    Based on US VS Miller I could see being able to buy new fully auto. The fees and registration would likely stay in place.
    I don't think ownership can be banned, carrying in public can be.
     
  14. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    i though there was some hubbub a while ago about people arguing about machine guns being legal, if all of the components were manufactured in 1 state and the completed gun only staying in that state.....and by not crossing state lines, the federal govt has no business regulating it......
     
  15. rondog

    rondog Member

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    I think full-auto's should be legal to own like any other gun, but I don't necessarily want one. They burn through ammo too fast for me. I don't see them ever being deregulated though.

    What I'd personally like to see deregulated are suppressors, I think those should be available to anybody that wants them without the stupid hoops and tax stamps. A suppressor is a safety device, for crying out loud.
     
  16. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Montana tried it, and I believe a couple of other states afterward, citing that ATF may regulate interstate but not intrastate. It didn't fly, but it's a starting point.

    http://missoulian.com/news/local/th...cle_b8432896-0c3b-11e3-8536-0019bb2963f4.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Firearms_Freedom_Act
     
  17. Mike OTDP

    Mike OTDP Member

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    Just about every MG owner I know of, including myself, would cheerfully lose our investments to see new guns added to the NFA registry.
     
  18. yokel

    yokel Member

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    Folks seem to forget that the ostensible purpose for the National Firearms Act was not a 'gun control' measure, but a 'tax'. You had to register the firearm and pay a tax (quite substantial at the time). And you still do.

    The law was crafted in such a way as to to avoid a Second Amendment challenge (as made clear by the SG's argument in Miller if I remember correctly).

    It was a gun control measure diabolically passed into law as a tax. The intent was not as a revenue collecting measure but to "regulate" fully automatic firearms and short-barreled rifles and shotguns into a place of insignificance and oblivion by taxing them. Do we tax other fundamental rights in order to abridge them? What Congress did was use their taxing power to effectively hike the price of keeping and bearing said firearms from all except the well fixed. My, what an egalitarian democratic concept. Wonder what would be said if Congress taxed abortions at say $5,000.00 a pop? Would that pass constitutional muster? How about if they used the commerce clause to regulate abortions?
     
  19. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    There was one guy on this forum that said he didn't want the registry reopened for machine guns because he bought a couple as an investment for retirement. Besides him, I've never seen someone who owns machine guns oppose the registry getting reopened.
     
  20. saltydog

    saltydog Member

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    Lets say I'm married and own a machine gun. If I die my wife can have the weapon transferred with a tax exempt form 5. Its done all the time unless something has changed.

    Link to same questions

    http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-740909.html
     
  21. medalguy

    medalguy Member

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    I own several machine guns and I would just dance for joy if the Hughes Amendment were reversed. Older original guns will always be old and original. After all, there will never be any more Colt 1921 Thompsons made again, not any more grease guns or A C Spark Plug .50 BMGs. The older guns will always carry a value, whereas things like a MAC-10 won't have the high value. Never did, never will.
     
  22. Warp

    Warp Member

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    lol

    There aren't that many people who own pre-86 registered full auto who would also support keeping it as is just so they can have a more valuable gun.

    This is a very small number of people.
     
  23. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Let's say I'm not married, because I'm not. And let's say my kid is too young to transfer it, because he is, and will be until 2035. I have a trust now, but my individual form 1'd SBR goes into limbo if I perish, and ATF confiscates it unless someone decides it's worth the headache to form 4 it themselves.
     
  24. TruthTellers

    TruthTellers member

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    I think the possibility of getting short shotguns removed from the NFA as much as SBR's and suppressors. My argument is what makes a shotgun more dangerous if it's barrel is less than 18" or OAL less than 26"? It's not like these are so much easier to conceal that mass shooters will use them because of various reasons and if a street gangbanger wanted concealability, he's already got that in handguns.

    I'm not talking about AOW's either, those can stay on the list with the $5 stamp. I'm talking about shotguns with buttstocks that are shorter than the 18" barrel or 26" OALs on the books now.

    EDIT: Besides, if a criminal wants a very small shotgun, he can make one in a back alley with a regular shotgun he bought from a private seller at an Indiana gun show with no background check, throw it in the back of his van, and drive to the hardware store and buy a hacksaw and put some elbow grease into it.
     
  25. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    MachIVshooter wrote:

    Incorrect. An individually-owned NFA item goes to the heir tax-free, using a Form 5. The executor (or administrator, if there is no will) takes immediate custody of the item, and has a reasonable time to complete the Form 5 transfer to the ultimate heir. There is no tax on this, and no need to involve an SOT. As far as probate is concerned, those items don't have to be specifically mentioned, since they can pass under the residuary clause of a will, or as provided by state law in the case of intestate succession (where there is no will).

    In the case of a married NFA-item owner who dies without a will, the procedure is really very simple. The widow files a Form 5 with ATF, attaching the death certificate and an extract from the relevant state law that provides that she is entitled to the decedent's property. She maintains possession until the form is approved. She is then free to keep or sell the property, as the case may be.

    The whole idea of "NFA trusts" has been oversold, mostly by lawyers standing to make a profit by setting them up. Most of the "advantages" attributed to them are illusory. Possession by multiple people is, indeed, possible under a trust, but I would question the wisdom of passing such an item among a group of people. (Remember, other people can always use the item under the immediate supervision of the owner.)

    Let's face it -- the main (real) reason trusts were / are used is to sidestep non-signing CLEOs. That reason won't be valid six months from now, and I would expect the usage of trusts to decline dramatically thereafter.
     
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