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Gun-related sayings that need to go away

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by ATLDave, Aug 9, 2018.

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  1. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    Oh I'm sick "sheepdog" :eek:
    Why not ever a bear, Rottweiler, GSD, Bullmastiff or even English Bulldog o_O (rhetorical question)

    Another thing, not really a saying but a simpleminded way to get attention when they tried a new product:
    The use of either "cherry" or "virginity" in regard to a gun. :barf:
    If I had any authority, those two words would be against the code of conduct in gun forum titles.
     
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  2. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

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    Simple minds like simple categories. If someone wants to imagine himself a sheepdog, give him some Purina.

    If I had to liken myself to an animal it would be the puma, a coward by choice, only deadly by chance, mostly interested in minding my own business.
     
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  3. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    When you say, “my wife always yells at me” I know by context what you are saying, because I’m an adult. Adults understand things like context and the subtleties of language, but we also teach firearms safety and handling to children, who can be very literal.

    When teaching a group of cub scouts about firearms safety, and the very first rule you cover is “All guns are always loaded” you get questioning looks, because even at 8 years old some of them know you are lying (or, if not lying, at least not saying something that is true.). Then they start asking questions about it and you end up explaining that, obviously all gun are not always loaded but that we need to treat them like they are for safety reasons until we have verified ourselves whether the weapon is loaded. Now you have started a safety lesson by contradicting yourself and the PowerPoint slide on the first rule.

    So for me, while I understand the concept behind the “all guns are always loaded” language, I dislike it.

    As a slight aside, when teaching adult police officers, many who have never held a gun before the academy, we have gone away from that wording altogether and gone to “know the condition of a weapon and verify it” (which we stole from some trainer somewhere.)

    This also helps avoid wording issues in a structured rank training facility. You used to have a Lieutenant come in and teach the 4 rules, and even some adult police cadets take the LT’s word as absolute gospel. Later, when getting ready for drills, you ask a cadet if their gun is loaded and you get “All guns are always loaded, Sir!” as an answer. No man, it isn’t a trick question, is your gun actually prepared for the next drill?
     
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  4. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    Perhaps, but I do hear "if you shoot someone, make sure you kill him." Which is just as ludicrous.
     
  5. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    hqdefault.jpg
     
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  6. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    I love the water cooler guy that brags about the fact that is a NRA instructor or tries to sign off and the end of his comment. Or some guy on the Internet that alludes to superior knowledge by the fact he shoots IDPA. (which nowadays is like a Wednesday night bowling team).
    Certain things do not bother me. Ruger built like a tank, is just a adjective to describe robust build quality. But not all Rugers are built like tanks. Stainless steel is significant as opposed to aluminum in a guns description. Not just corrosion. I hate the term "The very best trigger"" Or this gun is very accurate" Especially when triggers are so subjective. And accuracy should be defined to "For me the gun is very accurate."

    I don't get caught up in most of the thousands of new terms etc. Life is too short. Oh God, did I just say Life is too short? I am sure someone somewhere will hate that term as well.
     
  7. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

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    I have heard it transmogrified as all guns should always be loaded, which is a travesty of any sober thinking.

    I broach the subject in this way. "Sergeant Murphy says all guns are loaded all the time. It's Murphy's Law. Act like that and you will never get a loud surprise. Repeat after me, 'All guns are always loaded.'
     
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  8. mjsdwash

    mjsdwash Member

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    "platform". uuugggghhh
     
  9. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

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    Operator. Platform operator. Presumably, high-speed and low drag as well.

    Hello, operator? I'm trying to phone Schenectady...
     
  10. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    One I really hate "The Best Safety is the one in your head". I tend to avoid people that use that term.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018 at 2:54 PM
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  11. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    Unfortunately for people that carry guns for a living or for their own protection, this type of mantra/training can lead to a very loud “click” when you are fully expecting and intending for a very loud bang.

    And for teaching beginners, especially children, I just don’t think that a basic, #1 teaching point should be a false statement.

    The thing about Murphy’s Law is that it is also false, but it a) can serve as a helpful reminder to be prepared and have backup plans and b) doesn’t lead to confusing children about firearm safety.
     
  12. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    this is precisely why i remain in favor of the "all guns are always loaded" wording. it's because people like to rationalize and add things like "until we have verified ourselves whether the weapon is loaded"

    that sort of qualification implies that once i've verified it's unloaded, that it's no longer dangerous and that i can then start treating it like an unloaded weapon. otherwise, what is the point of the rule in the first place? why not just eliminate the rule altogether?

    it is not sufficient for you to think the weapon is unloaded because that's how accidents happen. almost all accidents happen because people did something with a weapon they were sure was unloaded and it turns out ammo somehow found a way in there. you can verify it is unloaded all you want, but that does not change the way you behave. this is what you must teach children (and adults)


    the 4 rules are for general, unstructured time. I don't think they're sufficient for say, camp perry where you have 1500 dudes on the line and have the commands by relay to load and make ready, and unload, etc. when you're on post, if you got caught with a loaded rifle, you'd prob get ejected. heck, in many states carrying a loaded rifle in your car is illegal. i can't really speak to whatever additional rules might be necessary in the military or police environments. the 4 rules should be considered a minimum, however.
     
  13. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    After a half-century in the firearms world, I try not to get annoyed by phrases, terms or sayings related to guns. When I first started as a small-arms instructor, there were phrases you were expected to use; later, yes, the irritated the hell out of me, but I'm finally starting to get over it. I just don't care anymore ...

    Operator? I got this award certificate once that instead of my title or rank referred to me as a "Special Response Team Operator," I still don't think that makes me cool, but it did indicate how prevalent these terms have become. Platform? That term has its uses, for sure. And all guns are always loaded. That is not a "false statement." It is a concept. And Jeff Cooper's words still ring true today.

    We teach, "Treat all guns as though they are always loaded." We also expect our officers to act as grown-ups, possess critical thinking skills and understand the context of the 4 Rules (though of course, this isn't often enough the case).
     
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  14. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

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    I fail to see it. Each morning I look at the holes in my revolver to see that each contains a cartridge. Back when I carried an automatic I "press checked" to make sure there was a cartridge in the pipe. Yep. Sure enough loaded.
     
  15. Jeb Stuart

    Jeb Stuart Member

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    Do you mean the holes in the round thing?
     
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  16. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    To be honest, I think the other rules cover what occurs after you verify it is unloaded. I don’t verify a gun is unloaded and then point it at my head, but I do verify it is unloaded, keep it pointed in a safe direction with my finger off the trigger, and disassemble it for cleaning. Or I verify it is unloaded, make sure it is pointed in a safe direction, and practice dry firing. Or I verify it is unloaded and put in my checked baggage to get on an airplane.

    You don’t verify it is unloaded and treat it like a spoon. You verify it is unloaded and then you continue to treat it like a firearm, but there are a lot of reasons to have an unloaded firearm.

    You don’t eliminate the rule altogether because treating an unknown as the most dangerous condition possible is the safest way to deal with it.

    Again, I have no problem with the concept behind the rule, but I take issue with the wording (and I understand that Jeff Cooper forgot more about guns than I will likely learn, and respect his contributions, I just disagree with the exact phrase.)
     
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  17. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    Why did you check? Remember, Sgt. Murphy says all guns are always loaded. You checking the condition of your gun every day, as I do, is proof that you don’t believe that all guns are always loaded. You are clearly an intelligent person interested in your own safety and the safety of others. Sometimes we deal with someone less intelligent, and if you tell them over and over that “all guns are always loaded” then a) they may start believing you and go on duty without a round in the chamber or b)they may call out your wording mistake and confuse the class.
     
  18. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

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    I am supposing the bullet things go in the holes. I have been right so far.
     
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  19. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

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    The alternative, after explaining Murphy and the role of his important discovery about arms and machinery, is to say you always remember what you did. You know if you loaded or not. You take responsibility also for what anyone else did when you were not looking.

    All of my guns are cleared (show clear) unless I am carrying them. And yet, when I pick them up anew, I suppose they are loaded. I cannot see that as a bad habit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018 at 3:55 PM
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  20. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    Yep. That’s the point. The rules overlap. Safety in layers. Defense in depth.
     
  21. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

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    No less than the celebrated Tamara Keel took up and repeated my Four Rules summary: LS/MFT. Loaded, stupid! Muzzle, Finger, Target. If you prefer that to the Jeff version, okey doke.
     
  22. Choctaw

    Choctaw Member

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    Dave, this is the internet and not a scholarly work. Opinions are going to vary greatly as will experiences. If we all dance to the same music things are going to get boring rather quickly and what one may consider to be a truth may not be so for another person.

    That being said, whenever someone claims that the 45 ACP has "knockdown power" I really want to throttle them...in a constructive sort of way. :D
     
  23. chicharrones
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    chicharrones needs more ammo

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    "Operator". Yep, that term sure feels different in the firearms world than in the rest of the world.

    In my industry, an operator is someone that is usually low skilled and low paid since the machine they operate is mostly automated. I'd consider most car drivers in the world "operators" as well.
     
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  24. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

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    If someone is introduced as a high speed operator, I want to know why my Verizon bill keeps on increasing.
     
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  25. Kendal Black

    Kendal Black Member

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    If you hit them anywhere with a .45 it has a decisive shocking effect. Or did someone fly that canard already?
     
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