Gun rights in Europe post Charlie Hebdo

[Lycidas Janwor]

Please. I see where this is heading and we shouldn't even think about going there. Religion (any religion for that matter) may have some sociological, psychological and behavioral aspects but the vast majority of natural tendencies of human social behavior has been monopolized by thousands of different institutional religions throughout the history of mankind. I have the highest respect for everyone's individual beliefs and belief system, but once religion gets organized and hierarchical and starts limiting people's lives beyond objective norms of society in any way, I reserve the right to exercise extreme, well-founded prejudice.

One of my american confreres in the 30's and 40's was somewhat famous for joking that the best business in the world is to start a religion. He wasn't really a hypnotherapist but a hypnotist and I still use some of his routines when I really want to make a deep impression on individuals who think hypnotism - even sheer brainwashing in the very meaning of the word - is a trick, joke or just playing along, instead of a very real medical and physiological phenomenon. Some of the notes he made about church services are still used in clinical hypnotherapy training today. He was called L. Ron Hubbard. He's got plenty of extremely dedicated followers who are just as "wrong" from a christian perspective as christians are from muslim perspective, or muslims are from hindu perspective, or hindus are from buddhist perspective and so on. It took him all of a couple of decades and some basic knowledge of how human subconscious works to accomplish that. And I know exactly how it's done.

So, let's keep religion out of this conversation. It's a powerful tool to control people, for good or evil, but I rather keep it a matter of personal faith - or lack thereof - than praise or demonize any religion only because what its spiritual leaders are using it for.

The important thing in any religion is the freedom of choice. Under the Judeo-Christian ethos, no one is putting a gun to your head and telling you to believe something (well, outside of the Inquisition and whatnot, but that was just outside of the dark ages). Cults are never a good thing either and again, one has to conciously and willingly choose to be a part of a religion.

 

[Cee Zee]

Actually the Catholic Church is well known to have forced people to convert and it had little to do with the Inquisition. That little picnic was mostly about stealing the property of someone. You accuse them of being a heretic then when you "prove" in court that they are that (generally by the use of torture - true Christians will never submit and say they aren't Christians even if you put them on the rack - anyone who wishes to avoid the horrid pain and says they aren't Christians have their property confiscated by the state which was generally the next noble up the line - the Inquisition had almost nothing to do with actual religion).

Now the Spanish Inquisition was an entirely different matter. It was used mostly to weed out the Muslim assassins who roamed the country killing off nobles because Spain had formerly been part of the Muslim world and as we all know anything that was once Muslim is supposed to remain Muslim forever. The trick in Spain was to ask potential terrorists (they called them assassins back then) was to ask them if Jesus was the Son of God. No self respecting Muslim is going to say that so it was pretty easy to figure out who they were. Some would lie but a little torture generally got them to confess. Jews were also sometimes caught up in the same trap because they wouldn't admit that Jesus was anything other than a man. It was an ugly way of doing things but surprisingly effective. The rate of terrorism dropped substantially because of those practices. Yes it was a harsh world but think about it. Look around at what we have now. Do you think people won't eventually get drastic in their attempts to rid their culture of Islamo-nuts. The PC crowd will try to tell you that Islamic lunacy is a new thing but it is NOT.

Just for the record some Protestant churches demanded that people adhere to their particular faith at times also but much less so than the Catholics or heaven forbid the Muslims. In the US colonies in particular you had to be a member of the right church to live in most colonies. They rarely killed people who wouldn't convert but they wouldn't let you stay in the particular colony. That's the main reason we eliminated the whole idea of a state church in our constitution. For one thing every individual state had a different religion. Only a couple didn't have an official religion. So which one would we pick when we formed the United States??? None was the obvious answer. BTW few people know that states continued having an official religion long after the constitution was written and put into effect. It was only the federal government that was prohibited from making laws about religion. Obviously that all ended officially when the constitution was applied to all state laws after the Civil War but it had effectively ended long before that. But up until just a few years before the Civil War some states still had an official state religion. This falls under the heading of stuff you can point to in an argument with god haters. It's ancient history and has no bearing on anything now.

BTW we all know that the church is separate from the state in America. We all know that politics and religion should not mix. Unfortunately too many take that as a license to try to rid the country of all religion. Well that's not really true. The PC crowd kowtows to the Muslims i.e. the Duke weekly call to prayer debacle of last week. They had to cancel their plans to have the Muslim call to prayer broadcast across the campus every Friday. Imagine that. They do everything in their power to prevent Christians from practicing their faith (can't say bad words about gays or you get expelled - can't teach what the Bible says - can't have anti-abortion gatherings- etc.) but they not only accept Muslims they embrace their religion. Typical PC crap. Anything done by Christians bad - anything against Christians good. We could spend a month on this subject but again this isn't the right place.

And I still don't get where people think there's some connection between guns and Christianity in the USA. It must come from the media which constantly berates both. No surprise they connect them. There is no such connection at all. Don't believe everything you hear on tv. Actually you're best off if you don't believe "anything" you hear on tv. There was that Obama speech on God, guns and racism. It's typical of certain groups to lump regular Americans into the redneck, racist, Bible "thumping", gun toting hillbilly category. It's horrid prejudice on their part actually. BTW I'm glad to call myself a gun toting Christian although the two have no connection at all. I'm a hillbilly too and I'll put my morality up against the PC crowd any day. They may want to meet my future daughter in law before they start calling me racist. They might also want to check my DNA and my native American heritage.

 

[Snejdarek]

Under the Judeo-Christian ethos, no one is putting a gun to your head and telling you to believe something (well, outside of the Inquisition and whatnot, but that was just outside of the dark ages).

As Cee Zee said. I'd only add that for Czechs, after losing their part of 30 years' war, it was either convert to Catholicism or die, leading to some 60% population loss. From what I read the Bulgarians, after being overrun by the Muslims, could still keep their religion and practice it freely, only needed to pay extra taxes (while being exempt from military duties). So, there were moments in history when muslim invasion was way better than christian one. As regards jews in Spain, they were targeted for extermination by the catholic church the same as muslims.

Sorry guys, but coming from a country whose religion, language and culture was targeted for annihilation by the Catholic church, I can't accept this play of words on whose religion is better.

 

[Cee Zee]

for Czechs, after losing their part of 30 years' war, it was either convert to Catholicism or die, leading to some 60% population loss.

It may help to point out that the large percentage of population loss wasn't all due to people being executed by the Catholics. Many fled the country to more friendly areas not far away. Still it was an ugly period and had a lot to do with the high rate of atheism in that part of the world.

And yes Jews were executed (again by Catholics) in Spain during the Spanish Inquisition. I don't mean to beat up on a single religion here but that religion (Catholicism) has a long history of mixing religion and politics and worse yet, money. So it has had lots of corruption over the centuries. To be honest I look at the Pope now sucking up to Muslims telling the world that if they insult a person's religion they should expect a "punch in the nose" and I see more politics being played. He also reached out to the gay world seeking to bring them in under his domain. Elton John wants him made a saint if that tells you anything. I guess the Pope must not have read the Bible but he has almost certainly read Machiavelli. That's not my idea of Christianity. Far from it. I might accept the idea of getting a punch in the nose for insulting Islam if it wasn't for the fact that they don't stop there. Unless your head pops off when they punch you they move on to more serious measures involving swords. How a religious leader could condone such actions is beyond belief. IMO what he has done is to make the world far less safe and has caused me to want to keep my guns even closer. In another thread here we have seen where European Jews are also looking to firearms to protect them from the ravages they faced once before. It's no little thing that the Islamic countries sided with Hitler largely because of his hatred of all things Jewish. If I saw the leader of a huge organization promoting the use of violence against those who might insult a religion I'd definitely want to start carrying a gun. Let's not forget that the Catholic Church turned blind eye to the role of Italy in that war too. They were the great allies of Germany and they grabbed up art treasures during that war among other bad things. People do NOT have the right to not be offended. They do have the right not to be killed. The Pope has set the Catholic church squarely on the wrong side of that argument. That's the main reason I have a burr under my saddle concerning that church currently. I'm remembering the many other times they have gone down the road of condoning anything to gain power for themselves. I really believe the Pope wants influence over the Muslim world now. How the leader of a religion that says the greatest thing a human can do is to love God and love his neighbor can side with another religion that teaches the greatest thing a person can do is kill people who won't convert is totally beyond me. It's no small irony that it was the Catholics that started those Crusades to take the Holy Land back for Christianity (which of course meant the Catholic church and the nobles that served it). Now the Catholics want to side with the Muslims and take what we have the way I'm seeing things.

Keep your guns close people. The Pope has made things far worse. Remember that almost all of our neighbors to the south take his words as being nearly the same as the words of Christ. It's no secret the Catholic Church has promoted illegal immigration for decades because it means more tithes coming from American Catholics because there will be more American Catholics which will be the hispanic invaders. That group wants to take away lands we captured from them in a war they started. And of course Dear Leader probably thinks that's a good thing. He hates everything else about America. Whatever problem there is in the world, whitey did it. That means you Europeans too BTW. He hates us all.

This is very much connected to the need for proper arms IMO. I'm not talking about duck killers either. I'm talking about battle carbines. If you don't have one you should just in case. We're still pretty far removed from the need for them but it's not a good idea to wait until the last minute to get ready. If the panics have taught us anything that's it.

 

[Ignition Override]

Snejdarek: You mentioned the SHTF situation in Hungary (post 79), but I'm sure that you meant in eastern Ukraine.
Anyway, I find you guy's discussions interesting.

Being a tourist over there each year doesn't inform us about overall modern cultural factors, other than news articles and the broader issues further back in history.

 

[Cee Zee]

You mentioned the SHTF situation in Hungary (post 79), but I'm sure that you meant in eastern Ukraine.

I would assume he was talking about the recent backsliding of democracy in Hungary. They have essentially embraced a one party rules government which of course is not how a good democracy works. It leads to abuses to have only one party in power. And the abuses have already begun. In a country with a very long history of having one group holding all the cards in their government they have already resorted to limits on speech among other things. Radio stations are required to say certain things and even play certain music. Those are just the things I know about. I'm sure there's more.

The whole region is a hotbed of extremism and has been for a very long time. The wars there in the 1990's are an example of how quickly extremist groups can take power. Let's not forget that it wasn't so long ago that one group was trying to kill all the Muslims in certain areas. Bosnia, Kosovo, Croatia, and Slovenia all had their own wars and the old religious lines still played a part of this and the Serbs were caught up in this (we've talked a good bit about the Serbs here). They gave us now universal terms like "ethnic cleansing". The area has been a battleground between east, west, far east and who knows what all for more than a couple of thousand years that we know of. The area has been conquered by so many different groups it's a wonder that there are still recognizable groups that are native to the region. Yet there are many such groups in the region. Let's just talk about WWII and how that area was twice the battleground between the Russians and the Germans. Both sides disliked people from that area and both sides abused them. The Russians won the war but many would say it was the eastern Europeans that lost rather than the Germans. They lost pretty much everything. It was all burned down or blown up and lots of people were killed or enslaved or enslaved then killed. That's the kind of history that region has faced since the beginning of history the best I can tell. The fact they are still hanging together is amazing to me and it has a lot to do with why I admire them. But they have their sins like the rest of us. It's just they haven't created the truly great evils that have come out of Europe IMO. No one remembers anything like Nazism from that region because most of the region hasn't been that evil (although I could make a good case for what the Hungarians did being pretty bad it wasn't something that really spread but it was a part of the reason we had WWI which of course is why we had WWII - but it was their connection to the Austrians that really made them connected to some really bad stuff - still a look at the dungeons in Budapest will give you an idea of just how bad things were for a long time there).

The region has been conquered by the Romans, the Mongols, the Turks, the Holy Roman Empire, Germany, Russia and a whole lot of battles in between. Those are just the major points. There are so many it's almost an endless story. It would make many people give up on ever wanting to live there but the tribes of eastern Europe remain. There are many of them still. They have fought each other and they still do. The one thing that has been constant about the region is the violence and maybe also the fact it changes so often. If you want to live at ground zero for the clash of cultures eastern Europe is for you.

 

[vaupet]

@ HQ:

I'm not sure if Putin and his henchmen would be crazy enough to take military action against a country where 85-90% of adult male population are trained for independent, group level and platoon level guerrilla warfare. Most of which are qualified expert marksmen and several thousands are fully trained snipers. Offensive war might not be a big deal for modern day Russia, keeping their occupying forces, especially officers alive might be...

Those are mighty high figures: how does finland achieve this?
How many of these people are gun owners?
What type of gun/caliber is most popular ?

 

[vaupet]

To get back to the original topic, after our Belgian police force "disposed" of a terrorist cell last thursday, police officers are mostly allowed to take their service handguns home with them (actually, the government, cowards as they are, decided it was up to the local police chief to decide if his personel were allowed to take their side-arms home ) and some Jewish representatives asked for a privilege gun law.
I support the first but don't support the second, because i don't belief in priviliges, i do believe them every citizen, jewish or not, should have the right to be able to defend himself and to own the necessary tools.

However, i do get ever more questions from friends and relatives to introduce them to firearms and shooting, both as a great hobby and to be able to defend themselves should need arrise and in our shooting club, we have an increase in membership by 15 to 20 % these last years.

This is a very good evolution, because the more people actively participate in the shooting community, the more politics will have friends and relatives with firearms and the less they will be inclined to vote anti-gun laws.

Actually, the member of the European Parliament I mentioned earlier, responsible for defense and foreign policy, just got of the phone asking me to introduce her husband to shooting.

 

[hq]

Those are mighty high figures: how does finland achieve this?
How many of these people are gun owners?
What type of gun/caliber is most popular ?

Full conscription is in effect, meaning that between 17 and 27 years of age all men are required to serve between 6 and 12 months. Most choose armed military service, but non-armed service and a kind of a community service is an option. Rehearsals are scheduled once in every few years, you never know when you'll be called in so it keeps you on your toes, ready to go in a few weeks' notice. Even though I'm trained as a platoon leader in urban warfare, there was no shortage of training in arctic forest environment, orienteering and working with explosives.

An interesting trivia is that some US special forces receive a part of their specialty training with finnish armed forces. For example, there's a group of US Marines and NWTC officers in northern Finland at the moment, training operations in -40°F weather. (They made it to the local news when the log cabin they used as a base burned down last week and they got a bit more realism than they bargained for... )

Gun ownership in Finland is common; according to official statistics there are over 1.5 million registered firearms (and countless unregistered ones, nobody seems to have even a ballpark figure) and between 650.000 and 700.000 gun owners in population of 5.5 million. The majority of guns are hunting rifles, .308 being by far the most common caliber, followed by .30-06, .223 and 7.62x39. During last decade or so the old 7.62x54R (or largely interchangeable 53R) has given way to .338Lapua in DMR and sport shooting. Some larger calibers like 9.3x62 and .375H&H are reasonably common, as an alternative to .30-calibers for national pastime, moose hunting.

 

[vaupet]

^^ txs for the info.

comparable to switserland, it seems.

Is it like Switserland, that people not willing to take up arms and not willing to learn to shoot are considered bad citizens?

Do you have comparable shooting schools and shooting sports?

I personally like 6,5x55 se and i would have thought it to be popular in finland too.

 

[Cee Zee]

between 650.000 and 700.000 gun owners in population of 5.5 million

That's the kind of thing that makes me like certain European countries and Finland is pretty high on the list. Yes they have had their problems in the past but that covers pretty much everyone. We all have had our issues. What counts to me is what is going on right now.

 

[AlexanderA]

Two comments about the gun situation in Europe, as I see it:

1. In general, there doesn't seem to be the same obsession about guns (pro or con) in Europe as there is in the States. I've heard numerous comments from Europeans regarding their surprise at the "gun mania" prevalent in America. This attitude, on the surface, is rather unexpected given Europe's recent history of wars, genocides, Resistance movements, etc. On the other hand, maybe Europeans are anxious to put those chapters behind them, or at least blot out the unpleasant memories.

2. That said, there is a wide discrepancy between the gun laws (generally very restrictive) and the actual situation on the ground. In other words, Europeans are much more willing to flaunt gun laws than are Americans. And underground gun ownership seems to be higher, in direct correlation with the severity of the gun laws. Unlike Americans, Europeans don't bitch and moan about restrictive gun laws -- instead, those that want them just get illegal guns. (Law enforcement, even in its published reports, is well aware of this.)

 

[hq]

Is it like Switserland, that people not willing to take up arms and not willing to learn to shoot are considered bad citizens?

Do you have comparable shooting schools and shooting sports?

I personally like 6,5x55 se and i would have thought it to be popular in finland too.

Those who choose non-armed or community service used to be frowned upon, "sivari" (a nickname derived from the finnish word for that) is commonly an insult, except in environmentalist left wing circles. It's not as big deal as it still used to be in the 90's, but many employers still consider the military service and especially officer or warrant officer training as an advantage when hiring.

Shooting sports is fairly common. Even though there aren't that many commercial ranges, most hunting and shooting clubs have their own and they're open to public. We have a somewhat strange summer cabin culture (only other scandinavians really understand) and plinking is a common pastime during the summer. What's really big is hunting, especially in rural areas but hunting has gained popularity in cities and especially among women during the last decade or so. Grouse tags for public land are sold out year after year in record time, whitetail and moose outfitters have waiting lists and I'm frequently asked to take first-timers to hunt with me. A number of these people are plain traditionalists who seek the ideal of past centuries, but sheer exposure to firearms in a practical environment like hunting is always a good thing. Some have been slightly shocked when I bring an AR, AK or M-series Benelli but it won't last long for them to realize that different guns are just different and an "assault weapon" is, by its official, technical and original definition, actually a group-operated rocket launcher.

I almost forgot about the 6.5x55 "swede". It's definitely one of the popular cartridges even though not as common as it used to be.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Right to Arms or No ...

Europe has gone too far past common sense to recover. It'll likely take another world war to beat some sense back into it. After that happens, it'll take another crusade to decapitate the cancerous snake plaguing it.

I don't hold out much hope.

Woody

 

[hq]

Unlike Americans, Europeans don't bitch and moan about restrictive gun laws -- instead, those that want them just get illegal guns. (Law enforcement, even in its published reports, is well aware of this.)

You're very right about this. Illegal gun ownership isn't commonly condemned and in the event of major changes in legislation, it can easily become a norm instead of an exception. After June 2011 when new handgun legislation went into effect, it was truly astounding how supply and demand of unregistered ones shifted. Obtaining a handgun, legally or illegally, has always been relatively easy, but it was absolutely crazy how many previously registered "lost" handguns and recent unregistered imports flooded the market.

When there are few licensed buyers you'll have hard time selling your gun. It's all buyers market and you're lucky to get half of what they go for in most countries. Except when you sell it to an unlicensed buyer, who gladly pays retail price for a used gun. I anticipated this, got a bunch of purchase permits literally a day before the new law went into effect and started shopping. LNIB Glock 17, €250. S&W 17-2, €150. Beretta 92F, €250. Mk.III Colt Woodsman Match Target, €100. And many more, discounts were easily in 50-80% range everywhere, and these were gun store prices with their markups.

That reminded me of 1997. I spent a good part of the fall calling gun shops in UK, hunting for bargains just before '98 UK handgun ban. I felt really sorry for UK gun owners who had to part with their guns for ridiculous prices and it seemed that UK is truly an exception in Europe because there doesn't seem to be a widespread culture of telling the government to shove it and just hiding whatever they have decided to ban.

 

[Cee Zee]

Unlike Americans, Europeans don't bitch and moan about restrictive gun laws -- instead, those that want them just get illegal guns.

Trust me there is a huge illegal gun culture in the US. Where do you think all those guns come from that kill people in cities like Chicago? You can't buy a gun there legally but there are plenty of them around. And in many areas certain gun laws are overlooked. Where I lived for most of the last 40 years the cops told me they didn't hassle people about carrying guns even though it was illegal because they knew all the bad guys had them and it wasn't fair for us law abiding types to be forced into a position of being an easy target. I had a car wreck with my pistol in the car and it ended up laying right in the middle of the road (I rolled my car). The cops picked it up and wrote me a ticket because they had to since so many people saw that gun laying there. But when I got to court they dropped the charges even though having a loaded gun in a car was illegal at the time. So even the judges didn't give us a hard time about such things. The cops actually encouraged people to carry guns saying they needed all the help they could get.

It's certainly not like that everywhere in the US but it's a big country. There are areas where the gun culture is huge and they don't harass people about things. I don't really need to break any laws now that we have concealed carry laws but for many years I carried a gun in my car knowing I wasn't supposed to technically.

The region I'm talking about probably covers as much area as a lot of European countries. It's in the cities that gun laws are super restrictive and the cops strictly enforce them. So I just stay out of the cities for the most part.

BTW I'm not advocating that anyone break any laws. I'm just saying that cops did advocate exactly that before the CCW laws.

 

[hq]

Trust me there is a huge illegal gun culture in the US. Where do you think all those guns come from that kill people in cities like Chicago? You can't buy a gun there legally but there are plenty of them around. And in many areas certain gun laws are overlooked.

There's one, major difference: by whom?

Convicted and career criminals and gangsters own illegal guns everywhere in the world, but in Europe it's very common among otherwise law-abiding citizens. It's comparable to a considerable percentage (well in two digits; tens of millions) of US population commonly owning unlicensed machine guns, SBR:s/SBS:s, suppressors and destructive devices, hidden in their house or yard, which most definitely isn't the case.

For example, we've seen people on this very forum asking questions about (found, inherited etc.) items that fall into NFA category and the most common - and right - piece of advice is TO GET RID OF IT ASAP. In many European countries it would be in the lines of "What machine gun? Just stash it in a safe place and if anyone asks, we've never heard about it."

 

[Snejdarek]

Both sides disliked people from that area and both sides abused them. The Russians won the war but many would say it was the eastern Europeans that lost rather than the Germans. They lost pretty much everything. It was all burned down or blown up and lots of people were killed or enslaved or enslaved then killed.

This. This. THIS. I can sign this.

Germans never paid a penny for war damages. Meanwhile, Czechoslovaks were paying for decades for every uniform, every bullet, every airplane the British Government gave to the Czechoslovak Government in Exile to arm the Czechs (and some Slovaks) that managed to get away from the occupied territory and join the Czechoslovak Army units abroad.

Having Soviets install communist government was only adding insult to the injury, but man, was it one hell of an insult that lasted 40 years. I think it will take another 2 generations to recover from the Nazi rule and subsequent communist marasm.

However, i do get ever more questions from friends and relatives to introduce them to firearms and shooting, both as a great hobby and to be able to defend themselves should need arrise and in our shooting club, we have an increase in membership by 15 to 20 % these last years.

Please, be so kind and never forget to mention that Czechs got shall issue concealed carry 20 years ago (and they ALWAYS had it bar Nazi and Communist governments), and Prague is one of the safest cities in Europe, definitely much, much safer than Brussels.

I'm not sure if Putin and his henchmen would be crazy enough to take military action against a country where 85-90% of adult male population are trained for independent, group level and platoon level guerrilla warfare.

That is something admirable. Fringe parties in the Czech Republic are calling for introduction of Swiss militia system. We are nowhere near that, but hey, they are at least being heard loud and clear.

The majority of guns are hunting rifles, .308 being by far the most common caliber, followed by .30-06, .223 and 7.62x39.

Just for comparison, the most common guns in the Czech Republic are pistols, CZ 75 taking Nr.1 (apparently we are the only country in Europe where there are more pistols then rifles).

That said, there is a wide discrepancy between the gun laws (generally very restrictive) and the actual situation on the ground. In other words, Europeans are much more willing to flaunt gun laws than are Americans. And underground gun ownership seems to be higher, in direct correlation with the severity of the gun laws. Unlike Americans, Europeans don't bitch and moan about restrictive gun laws -- instead, those that want them just get illegal guns. (Law enforcement, even in its published reports, is well aware of this.)

I must say that this is not the situation in the Czech Republic. Getting the license and gun legally is easy to the point that having it illegally leads to presumption of one being either criminal or lunatic and very high probability that someone would sooner or later alert authorities. On the other hand when someone has guns legally, it is not an issue that should be thought about twice for most (even those who would never get guns themselves).

 

[Cee Zee]

This. This. THIS. I can sign this.

I know it's been very hard in that part of the world for a very long time. Again I admire those who have lived there and continue to thrive. It's a monument to the human spirit IMO. And it's the main reason I have so much respect for the people there.

There's one, major difference: by whom? Convicted and career criminals and gangsters own illegal guns everywhere in the world, but in Europe it's very common among otherwise law-abiding citizens.

I think you'd be surprised how many otherwise law abiding types own guns they aren't allowed to own particularly in the cities. It's very common for people who live where gun laws are very strict to own them anyway and it isn't all the bad guys. Store owners are frequent owners of what would be illegal guns in their area. Where I live there aren't many laws against owning any kind of gun except for machine guns. And unlike Europe we haven't had a couple of huge wars in our backyard where machine guns happen to hit the ground with their owners no longer using them. Even still I've seen more illegal machine guns than I would actually care to mention. I don't want to get anyone in trouble but let's just say I've had too many people show up at my house in the country and say "watch this". It always ticked me off for them to do that because they were putting the onus on me for having a full auto around. Where I lived there were maybe 8 houses within a half mile so they had to hear the fireworks. But no one ever called the LEO's on me. They did call them the day I shot several full autos at a local gun range. But those guns were all completely legal.

Most people just don't see the need to convert a gun to full auto and risk a lengthy jail term as a reward for it. I fall into that camp. I like shooting them but I don't want to spend a fortune buying a legal example and I don't see much point of having one I can't shoot because it will attract attention big time and eventually someone would rat me out. I could stash it between the floor joists of my house or bury it in a plastic bag and cosmoline but I don't see the need. Many military weapons have gone back to semi-auto operation from what I hear. You need to carry a lot more ammo to feed a full auto too. And the chances of actually needing a full auto in a Red Dawn type scenario are very slim. And if it comes to that it won't be hard to look up the few nut cases I know that practice building full auto stuff and have them set me up. But I don't expect to live long enough to need that. I do understand that in many areas of eastern Europe especially it isn't a stretch to think you might well need a full auto sooner rather than later. But here in the US we have so many people with semi-auto weapons we could form a militia with incredible strength with only semi-auto weapons.

 

[vaupet]

In Belgium, we have kind of a habit not to trust our government, so most of the citizens have their own rules. This is historic, because in recent history we had the romans, the french, the dutch, the spanish, the austrians,and the germans and now the EU occupying our little country, all because it is such a nice place to stay. In the meantime we were Europe's main battleground.

So people have always been hiding weapons and putting up resistance.
(Ceasar himself wrote Belgians were the fearcest of all Gaulles).

First thing the Germans did in 1914 (well actually the second thing, first they stole the horses) was to oblige everyone to turn in their weapons. Didn't work then, won't work now (lost in tragic boating accident comes to mind).

But we never speak of illegal guns, we like to call them black guns, a much nicer word to give a name to guns the government doesn't know about.

 

[Medusa]

It is already a couple of pages back, but I still think that the general idea - YOU have to provide YOUR OWN safety - is gaining on. I know the sheep problems. Ever since the war with the christian crusaders, well, quite literally 800 years ago (1206-122x) the people here have been pushed down, up to the point where a lot of people think that "better him than me", if something bad happens to a stranger. I use him and he in general, non-gender, sense.

Even if it would seem wrong, the thinker comforts himself with the thought that bad things happen to bad people, and somehow the victim must deserve the injustice - skirt was too short, fools must be parted from their money, he kicked a dog a year ago and thus it is OK for the home to burn down (I actually heard that; the wife with 2 kids got killed that night, only the man in question and one kid surviving, and some fcker said that). Anyway, there has been a long history of beating the free will and independent thinking into submission. Where not with violence, the good and peaceful life has done the same none the less.

And also, just to analyze the thinking as such, there are a lot of thoughts in that line - I am better than THEM (whoever those "them" are), I am different etc. And if something happens, then would think - why should I risk for THEM. Or every man for himself, bluntly put.

The western world is weak, anyway, morally, ready to pull the skirt up and bending over, to whoever is bastard enough to actually ask that. At least one good thing has come from the Russian-waged war in Ukraine (you guys here do know actually, that the Russian losses in the past 3 days have been over 300 troops at the Donetsk airport alone? And during the half year campaign it exceeds 5,5 thousand? That's why the border-sharing neighbors are not too happy at the moment), or the ISIS (by the way, coincidence or not, the terros had connections to Kadyrov, the Russian puppet in Chechnya) the awakening of the soft-hearten and living off the welfare pensioner, to what the EU has been compared to, and the people within.

What I mean, is the realization, that the world includes those, who are not afraid to take what they want, by force, regardless of the consequences. Shortly, the world is still full of bad people and they are not far away.

One thing is the increased activity politically and in NATO, for example my country hosts, next year, the biggest NATO joint exercise for some time, other is on individual basis - the thought of having to provide at first your own safety, and secondly making your country stronger by serving one way or another. But, and a big but, the process is god-awfully slow. One can hope that it would not be put up to test, but I can't remember it being that bad ever. Not in a panicking way, or being paranoid, but in constructive way. "Be polite, be professional...", you know.

There are not too many gun owners on this land, only about 5% of the population, and mostly hunting guns. Some tend, to overcome their own lack of confidence I think, see the guns and instrument of power, overcoming everyone who ever touches one, or "boys and their toys", "real men don't need guns" and that kind of BS. Idiots.

 

[throdgrain]

Germans never paid a penny for war damages. Meanwhile, Czechoslovaks were paying for decades for every uniform, every bullet, every airplane the British Government gave to the Czechoslovak Government in Exile to arm the Czechs (and some Slovaks) that managed to get away from the occupied territory and join the Czechoslovak Army units abroad.

With respect mate we only finished paying the Yanks back a few years ago

 

[Cee Zee]

Where not with violence, the good and peaceful life has done the same none the less.

Here in the US that is almost exactly what has put us in the position we are in now. People have time to sit around and think instead of worrying about the invader just down the road. So we end up doing way too much introspection and blaming of ourselves for anything and everything. The "blame America first" crowd has way too much influence in our school system and if Hitler taught the world anything it's that you can control the future of a country by controlling what the kids are taught.

So we now have a nation with a big percentage of suicidal sheep. They want absolution so they are willing to give away everything their ancestors fought to gain. I don't think conquest is some great thing but it is the way of this world. It's a lot easier to feel guilty about such things when you're not worrying about that empty feeling in your gut where food should be.

This is not a perfect world and I personally haven't had to take anything from anyone and I'm glad of that. But I won't feel guilty that I was born into a strong system and I won't give away everything that keeps me alive or at least not willingly. The government is doing a pretty good job of taking it away unfortunately and it's only going to get worse. But I've had a good run. I do worry about my children and grandchildren. I don't them having to fight for every scrap of food like too many people must do around the world. I don't mind doing what I can to help the less fortunate but I do not want to become one of them.

 

[Snejdarek]

With respect mate we only finished paying the Yanks back a few years ago

Well there were some 2.000 Czechoslovak airmen serving in RAF, doing quite fine job during the Battle of Britain among other things. As eager they were to fight Germans and as much as Germans were the common enemy, at that part of war, they were essentially defending British soil. I hope we can agree that it is a bit strange to send these men into harm's way, have many of them pay in blood, and then cash their government for training and equipment, while later deciding that the culprits of war with some 60 million deaths on their hands shall pay no war damages.

Sure, if UK would provide Czechoslovaks with equipment in 1938 to defend their own soil (instead of siding with Hitler in Munich and maintaining diplomatic pressure on Czechoslovakia to stand down a fully mobilized army and forcing it to open itself to the invasion of German, Polish and Hungarian armies), then I would say yeah, that would be debt worth paying off. (And that is basically the way US supplied UK in a war far, far from its soil, so the two examples are incomparable).

One thing is the increased activity politically and in NATO, for example my country hosts, next year, the biggest NATO joint exercise for some time, other is on individual basis - the thought of having to provide at first your own safety, and secondly making your country stronger by serving one way or another. But, and a big but, the process is god-awfully slow. One can hope that it would not be put up to test, but I can't remember it being that bad ever. Not in a panicking way, or being paranoid, but in constructive way. "Be polite, be professional...", you know.

I know that the Czech airforce regularly provides protection of the Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian airspace, taking turns with other NATO countries. Are there any plans perhaps for a joint airforce of the three states? I understand why we are sending our planes to Island, a country of 300.000 population, but the Baltics...?

 

[throdgrain]

Again with respect, you could also argue they were fighting to regain their own country, using our tools