Gun safes and dehumifiers: How many is enough?

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Fossil4Life said:
The interior dimensions of the safe are roughly 56H" x 27W" x 16D". Using online cubic feet calculators, the total cubic feet comes out to roughly 18 cubic feet.

http://www.marjam.com/calculators/volume-calculator-cubic-feet
http://www.autocalculator.org/Calculators/Cubic-feet-formula.aspx

I'm getting 18 cubic feet after coverting inches to feet. Unless I'm doing something wrong?
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That being the case I would just get one of these and be done with it. I would also add an inexpensive Hygrometer as RC mentioned.

Ron
 
Reloadron said:
That being the case I would just get one of these and be done with it.
Click to expand...
What is the difference between using one of these EVA-Dry units versus a rod? I mean, is there anything wrong with using an EVA-Dry versus a rod?

Couldn't you use several of the EVA-Dry's instead of a rod depending on the size of the safe? Seems like one is a passive dehumidifier while the other is active. If there was a rod that matched the cubic feet in my safe, would I want to use that instead?
 
Fossil4Life said:
What is the difference between using one of these EVA-Dry units versus a rod? I mean, is there anything wrong with using an EVA-Dry versus a rod?

Couldn't you use several of the EVA-Dry's instead of a rod depending on the size of the safe? Seems like one is a passive dehumidifier while the other is active. If there was a rod that matched the cubic feet in my safe, would I want to use that instead?
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OK, the difference is the principal each works on. All devices like this have names, some fancy. The EVA-Dry is a Reusable Desiccant Bag. That is all it is, a bag filled with a desiccant and in this case the desiccant is a silica gel. Silica gel is the most popular desiccant material. It works best when relative humidity is higher than 40%. That means the silica absorbs moisture, that is all it does, it removes moisture from the air through absorption. The silica can only absorb so much moisture at which point it becomes saturated. Saturated does not mean dripping wet, it simply means the silica can no longer take on or absorb moisture. At this point silica gel can be placed in an oven and the moisture baked out and once the moisture is removed (baked out) the bag can be used again. The EVA-Dry includes a power cord and small heating element built in. Same principal, once saturated it gets dried or baked out and the process can repeat.

The Golden Rods and similar devices are all, as I mentioned earlier, simply a heating element. You could accomplish the same thing using a small low wattage incandescent light bulb similar to what you would find in your refrigerator. A different principal applies here.

Does a hot air system remove the
moisture from the air circulating through
it?
If this question means that it reduces
the actual moisture content in the air as it
passes over the heat exchanger, the answer
is “no”.
When an air sample is heated, the
amount of moisture in the air sample
remains the same. This is referred to as the
absolute humidity and is measured in
grains per pound of air or as grains per some
unit volume. It takes 7,000 grains of
moisture to make 1 pound of water.
When water vapor is heated, what
do we get? You guessed it, water vapor.
There is no change of water quantity;
therefore the amount of water vapor in the
air sample entering the heat exchanger will
be the same amount in the supply air to the
conditioned space.
You may wonder if what I am
saying is true, why is there an increase in
static electricity shocks, cracking furniture,
dry skin and nosebleeds, all sign of low
humidity levels during the heating season?
The answer for this is that while the
absolute humidity doesn’t change, the
relative humidity does.
Relative Humidity is defined as the
ratio of water-vapor pressure—amount
currently in the air to the saturation-vapor
pressure—the amount the air can hold—at a
given air temperature. What?
If you were holding a sponge that
was completely saturated with water,
meaning if you added one more drop of
water it would drip from the bottom of the
sponge, it can be said the sponge is now
holding the maximum amount of water that
it can and its relative humidity is 100%.
Now say the sponge just suddenly
doubled in size. The size of the sponge, its
ability to hold water and the relative
humidity have changed but the amount of
water in the sponge is the same.
When you doubled the size of the
sponge, you are also doubling the amount of
water it can hold. Since you didn’t add
anymore water, the relative humidity is now
only 50%.When air is heat it expands and
increases its ability to hold moisture. This
causes the relative humidity to drop.
Click to expand...

If you place a heating element in a lower side of the safe and heat the air the heated air will rise and eventually cool. When it cools it will drop back to the bottom of the safe. This affords some circulation which is a good thing.

Anyway, all of this is moot unless you know what the humidity levels are inside your safe or container. Unless you know what your humidity and temperature are you don't even know if you have a problem let alone how to address it. For most small safes the EVA-Dry will work fine. The problem with a heating element, as was mentioned, is unless it is controlled and just makes heat you can end up heating a small space like a toaster oven. Too warm and too dry is very bad for wood stocks.

Ron
 
I use a 12" Dri-Rod in a 24 gun safe. It does not raise the temp more than 3 or 4 degrees above room temp. I have a 30" x 30" closet I use a 25 watt light bulb in. It will raise the temp 10+ degrees.
 
ColtPythonElite said:
I use a 12" Dri-Rod in a 24 gun safe. It does not raise the temp more than 3 or 4 degrees above room temp. I have a 30" x 30" closet I use a 25 watt light bulb in. It will raise the temp 10+ degrees.
Click to expand...
There you go, he knows what he has and what is going on. He knows his temperature rise.

Ron
 
In lieu of a rod or EVA-Dry system, I found another alternative... sorta? Anyone have any experience with the following?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00486U71E

Has anyone used one of these, or can provide feedback or thoughts on it?

EDIT: Oily, Xikar makes fine products. You will be happy with that one!
 
Fossil4Life said:
In lieu of a rod or EVA-Dry system, I found another alternative... sorta? Anyone have any experience with the following?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00486U71E

Has anyone used one of these, or can provide feedback or thoughts on it?

EDIT: Oily, Xikar makes fine products. You will be happy with that one!
Click to expand...
Midway sells them for $29.99. Found some specifications:
PEET M10 SafeKeeping Dryer
Technical Information:
110 volt
13 Watts
Click to expand...

It's a tube containing a heating element. Holes on bottom allow cool air in and holes on top allow warm air out. Causes convection and works about like any other heating element. Power consumption is about 13 watts so there's your heat. I like the fact it has a base it sits on.

Ron
 
Reloadron said:
It's a tube containing a heating element. Holes on bottom allow cool air in and holes on top allow warm air out. Causes convection and works about like any other heating element. Power consumption is about 13 watts so there's your heat.
Click to expand...
Interesting. The GoldenRod 12" dehumidifier is 12 watts and rated for 100 cubic feet. The PEET is 13 watts... no cubic feet coverage is given. Since the PEET is higher rated in wattage than the GoldenRod, one has to wonder if it covers more cubic feet than the rod.

Thoughts? Do you think the design of the PEET would influence how much cubic feet it would or would not cover versus the rod?

rcmodel said:
I'm getting 4.66 ft x 2.25 ft x 1.33 ft.

56" = 4.66 ft.
27" = 2.25 ft.
16" = 1.33 ft.

Which gives me 13.945 cu/ feet the way I figure it, and also on your on- line calculator.

4.66 x 2.25 x 1.33 = 13.945 cu/ft.

But let's round up and call it 14.
Click to expand...
So, never trust the manufacturer to give you the "correct" dimensions of their products. Busted out my Bosch laser range finder and measured the interior of the safe. Actual, true interior dimensions of the safe are 28"(W) x 56"(H) x 19"(D). Comes out to 17.23 cubic feet. Not that it matters, as the 12" dehumidifier rods are still overkill for the safe.
 
Fossil4Life said:
Interesting. The GoldenRod 12" dehumidifier is 12 watts and rated for 100 cubic feet. The PEET is 13 watts... no cubic feet coverage is given. Since the PEET is higher rated in wattage than the GoldenRod, one has to wonder if it covers more cubic feet than the rod.

Thoughts? Do you think the design of the PEET would influence how much cubic feet it would or would not cover versus the rod?


So, never trust the manufacturer to give you the "correct" dimensions of their products. Busted out my Bosch laser range finder and measured the interior of the safe. Actual, true interior dimensions of the safe are 28"(W) x 56"(H) x 19"(D). Comes out to 17.23 cubic feet. Not that it matters, as the 12" dehumidifier rods are still overkill for the safe.
Click to expand...
Yeah, on most of these things we seldom see the power expressed in watts. Some heaters like to tell you the cubic volume they cover and some don't. ColtPythonElite tossed some good information out when he mentioned:
I use a 12" Dri-Rod in a 24 gun safe. It does not raise the temp more than 3 or 4 degrees above room temp. I have a 30" x 30" closet I use a 25 watt light bulb in. It will raise the temp 10+ degrees.
Click to expand...
This is not a very exacting science in that we are not trying to create an absolute temperature and humidity controlled environment for out guns to live in or a high museum grade environment found in a museum.
So what to do? If I were to take the heater or golden rod approach here is what I would think about doing. First I would go to the store, be it Walmart or wherever and buy a hygrometer. Then I would go buy a humidity stick be it a Golden Rod or whatever. Finally as an added attraction I would swing past Lowes and buy one of these. I would plug my golden rod into my last item (any cheapo lamp dimmer will work) and find a setting that works well for me based on my conditions. There really isn't much to all of this. Using a lamp dimmer I can get a good full range power control (close enough) of my heater. :)

Ron
 
rcmodel said:
Hard to tell just how big it is though??
Click to expand...

Product descriptions are a wonderful thing :)

9 x 6.8 x 3.8 inches
Click to expand...

Still much larger than Goldenrod or equivalent. I barely notice mine on the bottom of my safe until I bump it with a rifle butt.
 
I got my Xikar hygrometer this week , now I know what my safe is doing , 36% RH & 68 deg. using a Golden Rod .

Thanks , RC .
 
May I suggest you unplug the Goldenrod then?

38 RH at 68 is too low, and much lower RH then necessary.

50% at 70 degrees is ideal 'museum grade' storage conditions.

Lower humidity will shrink wood, and may cause cracks & shrinkage around the metal.

rc
 
My whole house is about 38% right now, including the basement....My basement dehumidifier is set to come on at 40%. I haven't heard it on in over a month.
 
ColtPythonElite said:
My whole house is about 38% right now, including the basement....My basement dehumidifier is set to come on at 40%. I haven't heard it on in over a month.
Click to expand...
About the same here in NE Ohio. Welcome to winter. :) I have actually given some thought to installing a humidifier on the furnace system. Currently about 68 to 70 degrees with about 40% RH.

Ron
 
I have used a humidifier on my forced air furnace to maintain humidity here in Kansas for many years.

It not only keeps wood from shrinking up (loose chair legs, gun stocks, etc.) but it keeps you warmer at lower room temp, and keeps your nose from drying out.

All that is a good thing!

rc
 
What I like about the Xikar hygrometer is the min/max feature. At least I can see what the extremes are. Mine stays in the low 40% range but has dipped to 37% when it's cold and dry outside. I was surprised it was that low in general, but we live in a temperate rain forest.

I just use desiccant of differing types.
 
Just checked mine and the house has varied between 47% last fall before I turned the furnace & humidifier on, to 33% tonight.

Way Too dry!
I need to turn the humidifier up some more right now tonight!!!!

Rc
 
I'm in total agreement with everything Ron and Chief have said; but that's mainly about the temps and RH "inside" of the safe; (Just don't forget about the ambient temperature and the relative humidity of the room that the safe is kept in.)

For example, a safe kept in a bed room, (or other living space in your house), may be quite different from that of a safe kept in a basement (which are usually more humid than living spaces are), or a safe kept in an unheated garage, (or even a unheated house), if you go on vacations or cruises.

I have quite a few $$$$$ in woodworking machines and tools that "live" in an unheated, concrete block shop building; several times a year I give EVERYTHING a liberal (boy I despise that word! ) coating of good old Johnson's Paste Wax; certain things I try to keep oiled; I have very little problem with rusting, and here in Indiana it ranges from 10 below zero in winter, to 110 deg. and 100% RH occasionally in summer. I'm still using from the same 5 lb can of paste wax I bought 10 years ago! Paste wax is easy to apply, easy to remove, won't hurt anything, (other than possibly a new white shirt? )

I just happened to think.......I have several "K" in profile knives that are used in my molding machine; I usually smear a liberal coating (you just can't get away from 'em!) of heavy grease on them, roll them all up in heavy vinyl sheeting and store them in the house during the winter. (because they all have a complex curved "profile" that needs to stay razor sharp, and they cost $30 to $50 an inch to have made.)

desiccant (commonly silica gel ); it NEVER "wears out".......just gets "moisture-logged"; stick it in the oven at 300 degrees, dry it out, it's good as new; BTW......I do this exact same thing with my 50 lb. tins of welding rods when they start showing signs of needing it.

Wood; I'm guessing now, but I'm thinking that about the only wood that gun owners need to worry much about are gun stocks? Very little to worry about there; extremes of temperature......not much at all if they're walnut; even moisture isn't much to worry about, other than possibly where a barrel is "bedded" in a fore-end; (with wood, it's mostly glue joints and fancy "joinery" joints that excessive moisture can play hob with. ) Your rifle stocks, not much at all. Just remember this; it takes TWO things before you can have any "rust": "O" (oxygen), and "H2O", (water, usually in the form of moisture)

BTW......If you think gun owners have problems because of moisture, I can show you a fellow in Philadelphia who owns a very rare Amati viola (valued at app. $4.5 million) that has a much "bigger" problem! )
 
After just making a post I noticed Ron's new reply about adding a humidifier to the furnace system; depending on the size of your house, number of rooms, etc, etc, etc, that will "work", however it will be "relatively costly"; again, depending on volume, rooms etc, you can purchase a separate, "stand alone" unit at a home store, (Menard's maybe, or Lowe's, Home Depot ), for a fraction of the cost and it will do the same job; Different model add different amounts of water into the room air. I actually prefer a "stand alone" as it allows you to better control differing levels of moisture to different rooms, besides saving money; and there's even one much better reason to avoid a few of the "added onto the furnace" humidifiers; (if I can explain it properly?) these things being "costly", usually have a copper or vinyl water line from your plumbing so you can "forget about the humidifier", and therein lies the BIG problem! Any time you introduce a constant water source to this unit, that ALL of the warm air volume from your furnace is going through, after a while you start getting algal growth, (which starts setting up a perfect medium for certain "organisms" that can be very "unhealthy" for the residents of the home to breathe. I suppose you could say that "the more complicated you make anything" the more you risk you start having from your "more complicated system"! (I'm remembering much of this from my home in Cincinnati where I raised my family and lived for about 50 years. ) I had a big mold problem which all started with the automatic humidifier on the forced air furnace, and that caused me to do a lot of "research", etc etc etc, and I have been a great believer in simple, stand-alone humidifier units ever since!

Most furnace humidifiers have a float system that controls the water level in the unit, much like a smaller version of a commode, except the humidifier has constant warm air in contact with a constant evaporation of warm water; (it's like having "welcome sign" for mold spores. )
 
Most furnace humidifiers have a float system that controls the water level in the unit, much like a smaller version of a commode,
Click to expand...
My AprilAir has a humidistat in the furnace plenum you set for the desired humidity level, depending on outside temp.

Then it has a solenoid valve that only lets a small amount of water flow over a replaceable or washable evaporator pad.

All water and air flow through it is shut off in the spring when A/C is in use, and turned back on in the fall when the furnace is in use.

Very little chance for mold to grow rampant in it, as it is serviced yearly when it is time to turn the water & air duct back on again.
And it is dry as a bone in the desert all summer when the A/C is in use.

rc
 
With all this in mind, the agreed relative humidity and temperature to safely store firearms in a gun safe is 50%RH at 70*F correct?
 
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