Bruno2
Member
Right, then pretty soon the gov can just use this practice to disarm all of us. Well, no more gun dealers, they cant do their paperwork right.
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Gun shop employee who sold gun used at Newtown pleads guilty to paperwork charge
- Thread starter Bubbles
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Right, then pretty soon the gov can just use this practice to disarm all of us. Well, no more gun dealers, they cant do their paperwork right.
dogtown tom
Member
Why does these myths keep getting repeated?
Common abbreviations ARE NOT a violation. ATF says so in their FFL Newsletter and uses them in several places on the 4473.
"All numbers" on the birthdate is also acceptable.........because thats the way FBI NICS asks for it.....ALL NUMBERS, NOT "December"....but "12"
Abbreviate OH for Ohio a violation? Bullhockey. Says right on the 4473 "(U.S. Postal abbreviations are acceptable....")
Anytime you disagree with what the IOI says.........call his supervisor.
And "redoing" a 4473 is CLEARLY a violation if the firearm has already been transferred.
Dave Workman
Member
A relative handful, the low-level twerps who were the buyers in this fiasco. After more than 2 years of covering that fiasco, with Codrea, Hofmann, Vanderboegh and a relative handful of others (including CBS' Attkisson, Fox's La Jeunesse and LA Times' Serrano), this is kind of a raw nerve, you understand....
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
That's funny right there! We had an FFL for 25 years at our pawnshops (4 stores at our peak) and never got written up for more than a single problem in any given year and many years went without any.
No, this isn't how the government is going to disarm us all. Gimme a break. There are plenty of FFLs that do their due diligence and pay attention to what they are doing and do receive hundreds of violations in a single year.
I think this quote sums up the problem quite nicely...
http://www.kpho.com/story/21937184/documents-detail-why-gun-shop-lost-license
"""Maybe they'll pursue the other 499 violations by the store. JT
http://www.freep.com/article/2013041...view-Gun-Sales
"...the "willful violations" found from January 2010 to July 2011" numbered more than 500. """"
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I think this quote sums up the problem quite nicely...
Quote:
"The large number of repeat violations demonstrates that, the licensee and his employees purposefully disregarded and/or were plainly indifferent to their Gun Control Act obligations," according to ATF documents.
http://www.kpho.com/story/21937184/d...p-lost-license
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499 violations... at what number was the ATF gonna do something! 500, 501, 5,000...."""""""""seems to me maybe an ATF agent or two or more"""""" should get a spanking, and made to sit in the corner! But I guess it's okay to be government and do such a lousy job!
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When I began filling out form's 4473 back in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90, and 20's my address was always Omaha, Neb., filled out a form the other day(2013's) and was told Neb. was no longer acceptable, it has to be Nebr or spelled out......what's this bulll.....not a big deal but WOW..... funny the state nebraska on their official documents does not specifically require Nebr. As is noted on my DL... which shows NE...
I never have like that NE, NE is just not as 'specific' as Ne. or Nebr....
Oh-well back to my Metamusil malt....
http://www.freep.com/article/2013041...view-Gun-Sales
"...the "willful violations" found from January 2010 to July 2011" numbered more than 500. """"
==============================
I think this quote sums up the problem quite nicely...
Quote:
"The large number of repeat violations demonstrates that, the licensee and his employees purposefully disregarded and/or were plainly indifferent to their Gun Control Act obligations," according to ATF documents.
http://www.kpho.com/story/21937184/d...p-lost-license
=========================================
499 violations... at what number was the ATF gonna do something! 500, 501, 5,000...."""""""""seems to me maybe an ATF agent or two or more"""""" should get a spanking, and made to sit in the corner! But I guess it's okay to be government and do such a lousy job!
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When I began filling out form's 4473 back in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90, and 20's my address was always Omaha, Neb., filled out a form the other day(2013's) and was told Neb. was no longer acceptable, it has to be Nebr or spelled out......what's this bulll.....not a big deal but WOW..... funny the state nebraska on their official documents does not specifically require Nebr. As is noted on my DL... which shows NE...
I never have like that NE, NE is just not as 'specific' as Ne. or Nebr....
Oh-well back to my Metamusil malt....
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Bubbles
Member
With all due respect, unless we know exactly what the violations were then most of us are talking out of our derrieres.
That said, I believe the only abbreviations permitted are in postal addresses, and that first came out in 2008: http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2008/10/100208-openletter-ffl-revised-atf-f-4473.html. If the shop's violation list goes back to 2007 then how many would get tossed based on the 2008 guidance?
There is nothing about abbreviations in dates. So, 07/09/2013 is fine for dates, 7/9/13 is not and could conceivably be three violations depending how detail-oriented your IOI is. I've also had customers who are in the military or DOD use different formats, e.g. YYYYMMDD, because that's what they use at their jobs.
Heck, look at post #49 on this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=720965&page=2
The OP wrote "Dec" instead of "December" and the FFL had him come back to fix it. So, either their IOI dinged them on it during a recent inspection, or they were dinged for this "error" in the past and caught it during an internal audit so they wouldn't get another "violation".
Over a five year period 500 violations sounds like a lot until you figure that's an average of one every 3 days. I want to know how many of those were violations that would actually cause a transfer of a firearm to a prohibited person versus a meaninless clerical error.
That said, I believe the only abbreviations permitted are in postal addresses, and that first came out in 2008: http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2008/10/100208-openletter-ffl-revised-atf-f-4473.html. If the shop's violation list goes back to 2007 then how many would get tossed based on the 2008 guidance?
There is nothing about abbreviations in dates. So, 07/09/2013 is fine for dates, 7/9/13 is not and could conceivably be three violations depending how detail-oriented your IOI is. I've also had customers who are in the military or DOD use different formats, e.g. YYYYMMDD, because that's what they use at their jobs.
Heck, look at post #49 on this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=720965&page=2
The OP wrote "Dec" instead of "December" and the FFL had him come back to fix it. So, either their IOI dinged them on it during a recent inspection, or they were dinged for this "error" in the past and caught it during an internal audit so they wouldn't get another "violation".
Over a five year period 500 violations sounds like a lot until you figure that's an average of one every 3 days. I want to know how many of those were violations that would actually cause a transfer of a firearm to a prohibited person versus a meaninless clerical error.
1911austin
Member
The ATF treats simple clerical errors like a crime. There was probably no intent to commit a crime and this sales person is just a fall guy. It would be nearly impossible to do thousands of 4473s over a span of time and not have one mistake due to human error.
Then I would stay away from activities that deal with federal licensing... They think a whole lot of them and will stick you in jail so fast it will make your head spin. I tell my clients this about the fed: You have picked a worthy adversary. They can have all the money they want/need printed...How much do you have? The playing field is incredibly tilted.
Russellc
^^
This.
They have a double standard. They say officially there is no such thing as a "minor" error. But over 60% of their audits reveal paperwork errors of some kind. But their revocation rate is about 2%.
So obviously they distinguish types of errors. It's a game. They take the position that it is a privilege to engage in the firearms business and they can revoke you at any time pretty much for any reason.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
According to the ATF, your estimate is double...
http://www.kpho.com/story/21937184/documents-detail-why-gun-shop-lost-license
dogtown tom
Member
Actually it's .85% of those inspected in a fiscal year, not of total licensees.
For fiscal year 2012, ATF conducted only 11,400 compliance inspections of 69,000 licensees (not including 03's). Only 97 were recommended for revocation.
A brief summary of the revocation process:http://www.atf.gov/publications/factsheets/factsheet-ffl-revocation-process.html
alsaqr
Member
Revocation of that gun dealers license to sell firearms was under way well before the the Adam Lanza massacre.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/07/connecticut-gun-dealer-license-revoked/2060633/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/07/connecticut-gun-dealer-license-revoked/2060633/
dogtown tom
Member
NEB has not been acceptable as a USPS abbreviation since October, 1963.
Whoever is telling you that you have to write it "Nebr." or "Nebraska" is inventing their own rules.....because ATF rules clearly state otherwise.
Question 2 on the 4473 reads "2. Current Residence Address (U.S. Postal abbreviations are acceptable. Cannot be a post office box.)
The space provided in Question 2 for "State" makes it nearly impossible to write anything more than 2-3 letters..............and given that official USPS state abbreviations have been two letters since 1963 no one should be using three or four or even spelling it completely. http://about.usps.com/who-we-are/postal-history/state-abbreviations.htm
When abbreviating "Dr" for Drive, "Rd" for Road, etc........here's the official USPS list of abbreviations: Any IOI that gets snotty with a licensee for abbreviations needs to have his nose wiped with the actual regulation rather than letting him continue to use his personal opinion of what is official.
If there is nothing in the regulations that requires a certain format it's pretty obvious you did not violate a regulation. Your IOI is inventing his own and should be reported.
Again, no regulation was violated by using "Dec" instead of "December". I would bet its an internal "self audit" by paranoid Academy employee wimp that believes the internet myths more than the actual instructions.
Bubbles
Member
You missed the "could" in my statement. My IOI isn't that nitpicky.
JohnBT
Member
"Revocation of that gun dealers license to sell firearms was under way well before the the Adam Lanza massacre."
"ATF began proceedings to revoke the dealer's federal firearms license, or FFL, 18 months before the massacre on Dec. 14"
So you're saying the claimed ATF conspiracy to get even with the store for selling the gun to Ms. Lanza is hogwash and this entire thread is has been pretty much a waste of time? Well dang, it was just getting interesting.
John
"ATF began proceedings to revoke the dealer's federal firearms license, or FFL, 18 months before the massacre on Dec. 14"
So you're saying the claimed ATF conspiracy to get even with the store for selling the gun to Ms. Lanza is hogwash and this entire thread is has been pretty much a waste of time? Well dang, it was just getting interesting.
John
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Well there you go. Even rarer and rarer. This does NOT appear to be the medium by which the government is trying to take all of our guns from us as indicated by Bruno2 above. Note only that, but the number of FFLs appears to be growing annually...
http://www.atf.gov/content/statistics-listing-federal-firearms-licensees
clutch
Contributing Member
Gun shop employee is in the heading. I'm assuming it was the duty of the gun shop owner to train said employee in how to fill out the paperwork.
It is also the duty of the gun shop owner to put in review processes so one clerks work is reviewed by someone more experienced and better trained.
I'm worried that this employee may be getting skewered by the political process and the boss is walking away.
What kind of defense, as in attorney, did his clerk have?
We need to know more. If the clerk was acting in good faith we need to raise some money to get him some decent representation.
It is also the duty of the gun shop owner to put in review processes so one clerks work is reviewed by someone more experienced and better trained.
I'm worried that this employee may be getting skewered by the political process and the boss is walking away.
What kind of defense, as in attorney, did his clerk have?
We need to know more. If the clerk was acting in good faith we need to raise some money to get him some decent representation.
Blackhawk30
Member
- Joined
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Hey, I do this almost every time I fill out a form. 7/9/13,I would never think to put a zero in front of the month or day if it is one digit.Are they really gigging ffls for that?
There is nothing about abbreviations in dates. So, 07/09/2013 is fine for dates, 7/9/13 is not and could conceivably be three violations depending how detail-oriented your IOI is. I've also had customers who are in the military or DOD use different formats, e.g. YYYYMMDD, because that's what they use at their jobs.
There is nothing about abbreviations in dates. So, 07/09/2013 is fine for dates, 7/9/13 is not and could conceivably be three violations depending how detail-oriented your IOI is. I've also had customers who are in the military or DOD use different formats, e.g. YYYYMMDD, because that's what they use at their jobs.
Blackhawk30
Member
- Joined
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ATF really need to come up with a manual that spells out how they want the form to be filled out.But then they wouldn't be able to take away a licence for 500 violations.
Bruno2
Member
Whatever dude, double naught did it.
I do. I go out of my way to avoid any federal interaction, as well as State, county or municipal.
Here is what I said:
Then you said this:
I am not denying that this is tin foil. However, they have the option at hand and its not up to us when they can deploy it. It's not up to us when the IRS decides to ruin our lives either. I dont like the feds having everything set up so sticky that it can be abused and just because it hasnt doesnt at all mean that it wont.
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""Question 2 on the 4473 reads "2. Current Residence Address (U.S. Postal abbreviations are acceptable. Cannot be a post office box.)"""
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Really.....wonder how an Alaskan resident who lives 30 miles into the mountain area get's his DAILY delivery... can you imagine...no wonder the post office is going broke: two hours on the road to deliver a 44 cent stamped letter, to one house hold....
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Really.....wonder how an Alaskan resident who lives 30 miles into the mountain area get's his DAILY delivery... can you imagine...no wonder the post office is going broke: two hours on the road to deliver a 44 cent stamped letter, to one house hold....
Devonai
Member
I went over there today as my barber shop is in the same complex. I bought some belt keepers. They're still hanging on and the clerk told me they're still trying to get their FFL back.
dogtown tom
Member
Yes really.
Question 2 on the 4473 asks for the buyers current RESIDENCE address.
Since the 4473 is a record of a firearm transaction it has nothing to do with where you receive your mail. Imagine that.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Yep, we did. Each transaction was reviewed by a second employee BEFORE the customer left the store. Mistakes were caught as a result of the process and rectified BEFORE the transaction was completed. Employees who transposed numbers or letters were disallowed from doing the paperwork. Employees would could not complete the paperwork properly and consistently were precluded from being allowed to do the paperwork.
We also did silly stuff like checking our own inventory to verify the guns the books said we had that we actually had and reversed the process to see if guns on the shelf were still listed in the book. We followed the same process as they would do with the annual audits.
And that sums up your position succinctly.
Bruno2
Member
As so it should. I wont sit back and trust the gov to act in my best interest. I dont have a problem with watching the watchmen. If you do then fine. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
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