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Gun shop ethics. Where to draw the line?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by csbassplayer2003, Mar 13, 2011.

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  1. crossrhodes

    crossrhodes Member

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    What SAM1911 said.

    Yep. Had the same problem here too. Also most clerks don't know squat except for what they read on Internet forums, only interested in making a sale. I cured the problem and opened my own home business and do special orders and repairs in a converted garage. But not everyone can do that. I would take SAM1911's advice. Just remember, you get better results if you have the gift of gab and the ability to to someone to go to hell and have them look forward to doing it.
     
  2. Caliper_Mi

    Caliper_Mi Member

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    Gunshop threads like this always make me glad that I live fairly close to Williams Gunsight. Yes, that Williams. They run a really great gunshop and shooting range in addition to the gunsmith stuff. Good prices, great customer service and knowledgeable salespeople.
     
  3. Ala Dan

    Ala Dan Member in memoriam

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    Good Deals And Better Attitudes

    Simmons Sporting Goods
    2001-2nd Ave North
    Bessemer, AL 35020
    PX: (205) 425-4720 or (205) 426-0490
    Clay & Peter Simmons = co-owners


    Friendly and knowledgeable employees, taking care of business one
    customer at a time. No sale is too large, or too small for us to handle~!
    Out of town orders accepted, and welcomed~! Serving fisherman and
    hunters since 1945~! :cool:

    Located 16 miles SSW of "The Magic City" [Birmingham, Alabama];
    with a sales tax rate of 9%~! ;) :) :D
     
  4. csbassplayer2003

    csbassplayer2003 Member

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    Two problems with online. Unless you have experience with the model beforehand, thats a lot of money you are forking out over an unknown. To handle said unknown, requires a store. Gunshows are hit and miss. A lot of the shows I've been to have inflated pricing (I understand making a living, but come on...) and limited selection. You can't order a gun directly over the internet without having an FFL transfer. Transfers cost money, and again, unless you know the model already, you are guessing. Not a good policy.

    As for the "FMJ is ok crowd" I call bollocks. This isn't FMJ out of a rifle in a military setting meant to act as a force multiplier. This isn't military grade FMJ. This was Remington UMC FMJ. TARGET AMMO. This person was obviously not a "gun person". If I had to guess, shooting target ammo at a badguy while better than NOTHING is NOT the way to go. This person is probably going to be panicked, scared, and high on adrenaline. Punching clean holes in and out unless they are LUCKY and hit vitals or some sort of sleeper crack shot, isn't going to cut it, especially with a 9mm. Recoil or not.

    I'm curious, how many of you use FMJ target ammo in your HD handguns? I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that.
     
  5. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    1. handguns are exactly that: Force multipliers.
    2. Military grade in terms of ammo usually means lowest bidder.
    3. Target ammo? Is an assailant not a target?
    4. JHP defense ammo does not possess magical properties that somehow make it the only viable choice for carry ammo. Yes, they expand. Are they marginally better at putting a slightly larger hole in the target? Sure. Does that mean they're the only ammo a responsible person should use in their carry gun? No.
    5. Countless more people have died from 9mm ball ammo than premium JHP. It's not a pellet gun.

    A lot can be said for practicing the way you fight, and using the same ammo you practice with has many benefits, including guaranteed feed reliability and known recoil.


    Until I'm confident of feeding reliability with a particular type of expanding ammunition, I would not hesitate to stoke a home defense pistol with FMJ.
     
  6. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

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    csbassplayer2003 - you wouldn't by chance be referring to a shop in Belleville on North Illinois, would you (wink - wink)? When you mentioned RK having just opened its gunshop, I suspected as much. RK's prices aren't quite as good as WallyWorld, but they beat "C.S." and even "R & J's" in O'Fallon.
     
  7. CZguy

    CZguy Member

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    General Geoff,

    You beat me to it with post #30. Well said.
     
  8. Dulvarian

    Dulvarian Member

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    [Opinion]
    To address the issue of FMJ for home defense/self defense. At home, I load the top four with the 'anti-penetration rounds'. There are four other people in the house. Under that goes +P JHP. The second mag is all +P JHP. Not at home, the second mag is in, and the extra mag is 4 +P JHP, followed by the rest FMJ.

    I would feel perfectly fine carrying nothing but FMJ all the time. It's that old 'over penetration' concern. Heavy clothing often turns those fancy Hydrashocks or JHP into wound channels that look just like FMJ. (That's a guess on the would channel, but there are numerous reports of JHP not expanding for a variety of reasons.

    But as to the young lady practicing with FMJ ammo, and having very little experience with increased recoil with SD ammo that she never/rarely practices with due to cost concerns... There isn't anything wrong with FMJ. It isn't the best tool for all jobs, but it is a sufficient tool to get the job done.

    Also, from everything I have ever read, many encounters end with the presentation of the weapon or at the first shot being fired.

    She went to the LGS, is looking to buy a handgun for SD. That, along with practice, will has a lot more to do with her ability to defend herself than before. And, as was stated earlier, FMJ is pretty much the most reliable ammo to feed any semi-automatic pistol I know of. She's off to a good start.

    If you were truly upset and concerned, you could have made small talk with her about taking a class or asking whether she was planning to carry. It wouldn't have really stepped on anyone's toes. I carefully offer questions that an obvious new shooter should be asking while they are looking if the guy behind the counter is just pushing for a sale. I do the same thing at the hardware store. Carefully and tactfully asking a question is nothing more than simple human interaction.

    I've made honest recommendations from handgun selection to power tool selection. Yeah, it takes a bit of my time. But I know all the times I didn't have someone offer some advice and learned the hard way that I didn't know as much as I thought. I also have no problem asking for advice from store employees (or directions, though I navigate quite well). Sometimes people surprise you with the true wealth of knowledge they are willing to share to help you. And if you have done some homework and know what questions to ask, you can determine if the person answering you knows what they are actually talking about. I have been given some fine advice, and some terrible advice. In both cases, I thank them for their time and make my own decision.

    Several times, I have waited for the customer to step away and then engaged them in small talk. Usually, if they are unsure, I tell them to do some research, find out some more facts if they aren't comfortable making a decision.

    Supporting new shooters is something that a lot of people take lightly. Friendly support and honest questions can go a lot farther to keep them interested than a quick sale with the wrong setup and no direction.

    That being said, firearms, for some reason, are about the most over-opinionated and wrong-facted topics that can be found. No one on the planet can know enough to answer every question possible about firearms. And many of us have misconceptions, even among experienced shooters (who can sometimes lean to opinion over fact on their favorite gun related topic). If I offer advice, I make it clear it is my opinion and where it comes from, and then direct them to a source for more information. They can do with it as they please, or tell me to shove off. I get a lot more thank you's than I do go away's.

    And even after all of that, should you hear someone tell someone else something completely false and even deadly, the cases where your legal obligation to step into a conversation would be hard to prove in a court of law. It is only a moral obligation and completely up to you. YMMV.
    [/Opinion]
     
  9. csbassplayer2003

    csbassplayer2003 Member

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    @JT. Yep. I don't know what CS refers to, but you got all the others correct. I dunno about RK though, so far I haven't seen anything to write home about. The selection is small, and the best .45 ammo Ive seen is 20 bucks a box so far. Well see though.

    Yes handguns are force multipliers, but I wasn't referring to it in that sense. I was referring to the military concept of "a wounded soldier takes 2 more to carry off the field." 2nd, target ammo is hardly defense worthy unless it is a last resort, it is usually the cheapest, lowest quality stuff you can get, why bet your life on cheap? 3rd, yes FMJ/ ball ammo has killed more people, but that is a bit of an easy thing to say when you can't shoot hollow points in warfare and I'd wager that more shots are fired in a war than domestically in self defense (provided you follow the Hague convention). And again it is easy to speak in platitudes "a presentation of a gun can deter a threat" Really? Ya don't say! But how many criminals take women seriously when they are hell bent on doing harm? Ive read several instances where the BG was told to stop and he more or less said "you don't have the balls to stop me". If the threat doesn't care, you'd better be shooting the nastiest stuff you can get your hands on, because short of incapacitation, such fiends care little for human life. A grenade launcher is too kind for such people.
     
  10. 788Ham

    788Ham Member

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  11. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    Cheap does not equal unreliable. There's nothing wrong with using what you can afford to practice with. Over many thousands of rounds I've put through centerfire pistols, I've never once had a "cheap practice" round fail to fire. I had a few failures to extract with Wolf ammo a few years ago, but that's the benefit of testing ammo before relying on it: You know what to expect. And I wouldn't use Wolf ammo for carry.

    Using FMJ isn't about betting your life on cheap. It's about betting your life on what you know and practice with.

    FYI, the U.S. Military doesn't use expanding ammo because it's too expensive, not because it's banned by the Hague Convention (the U.S. never signed) or because of the "wounded soldiers take more resources than dead soldiers" theory.
     
  12. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    Furthermore: There are plenty of folks who carry FMJ simply because it's more consistent in terms of penetration than expanding ammo. They'd rather the bullet go through the body entirely than stop short of a vital area. Consider that a 9mm FMJ round after going through 12+ inches of tissue and at least two layers of clothing is going to cause, at best, a flesh wound. Overpenetration is not an overriding issue. And there's nothing to guarantee that an expanding bullet won't also overpenetrate. Knowing what's behind your target is paramount no matter what kind of ammo you're using.


    See also, the FBI's notes on 10mm. From the pdf:

     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2011
  13. makarovnik

    makarovnik Member

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    It's always nice to rate these businesses online. I say poo to keeping my mouth shut; I tried it and it can't be done.
     
  14. csbassplayer2003

    csbassplayer2003 Member

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    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I have on many occasions seen WWB, UMC, etc... anything "target" grade fail to feed, fail to eject, stovepipes etc... If it is going to happen, it will happen with the cheap ammo.That is the reason it is cheap to begin with. That in no way means premium ammo is infalible, but id rather have a 1% chance than a 5% chance when my life is on the line.
     
  15. LibShooter

    LibShooter Member

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    Put me down as a guy who uses FMJ in his self defense and home defense semi-auto firearms. It works every time. Hollow points don't work every time in my old autos. If I ever REALLY need my SD weapon, small real holes in the bad would be better than larger theoretical holes. YMMV. The revolver does get JHP.

    As to the original question, like Bubba says, if you don't like the place, don't go. Following that advice you won't hear the clerks misinform other customers and hand out "dangerous" advice. Your blood pressure will improve.

    I don't feel too sorry for folks who believe everything salespeople tell them. Anybody who can spell "Google" can get a second or a thousand other opinions. Caveat emptor.

    If you really must say something, follow Sam's advice and discreetly speak to the manager.

    I say trade with the mom and pop store and consider the little extra money spent an investment in your community. And I'll bet if you really want to buy a gun on a particular day, they might stay open a bit late to make the sale.
     
  16. merlinfire

    merlinfire Member

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    Haha, that's good. It's funny because its true.

    I'm in SW ohio, and blessed to have at least a dozen LGS within an hour driving distance, not counting walmarts and bass pro. Of those dozen, I have basically 3 that are run by people who are generally no-BS, and have the best prices too. They tend to tolerate my stupid questions, and don't lie to me.

    If you're wondering, the best in this area are Shooter's Supply in Loveland, Gun Runners in Monroe, and Thompson's Guns in Middletown.
     
  17. Kingofthehill

    Kingofthehill Member

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    You know what I did at a place that sounds very similar to this?

    I got a job there. I shared a lot of info with new buyers and even a lot of the staff who didn't have a whole lot of first hand experience and I took them shooting to get them more familiar with product.

    It worked out well for everyone involved. Im not saying i know it all but i LOVE soaking up information and take several training classes and have quite a collection. I always suggest doing something about it before you just turn your back.

    JOe
     
  18. Sentry71

    Sentry71 Member

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    CS would be Curt Smith Outdoors, on Church Street in downtown Belleville. I personally purchased my first gun (Winchester SXP 12ga) there, and found the staff to be pretty friendly, as well as prices below MSRP, though I don't have a lot of experience to compare with other stores in the area.

    When I dip into the handgun market, I'll start there as well, if for no other reason than they have treated me well.
     
  19. SwampWolf

    SwampWolf Member

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    Do you? I think you might be surprised as to the answer to your question.
     
  20. SwampWolf

    SwampWolf Member

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    I have to disagree with this premise, at least based on my experience. If your pistol is malfunctioning with "WWB, UMC, etc.", it is likely that your pistol has problems, not the ammunition. If your pistol is malfunctioning with "cheap" hardball ammunition, it's time for your gunsmith to take a look at the pistol. I may or may not get the best accuracy from the "white box" stuff but, after literally thousands of rounds expended down-range, I have never seen an instance where the malfunctioning of a pistol could be attributed to inexpensive FMJ ammunition. "Cheap", imo, has absolutely nothing to do with reliability.
     
  21. SwampWolf

    SwampWolf Member

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    So true. Decades ago, I was stationed at the long defunct Wurtsmith SAC USAF base in Oscoda, Michigan and several times have had the pleasure of patronizing the Williams Gunsight company in Davidson. Even though I have not lived in Michigan since the late sixties, I still find myself back in Davidson whenever possible. Very nice people indeed run this shop.
     
  22. Smaug

    Smaug Member

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    Sounds like the Ma 'n Pa store is the place to shop.

    Spend a bit more to support the good place where they don't lie.

    Where I live, there are two local shops. One is snotty and through-the-roof expensive. The other one is still kind of snotty, but generally friendly, and has decent deals on used guns. (but high prices on new guns)

    So I bought one used gun from them, a beautiful S&W 29 w/ 8-3/8" barrel.

    I bought two guns from Bass Pro, because they're friendly and helpful. I bought two guns from GAT Guns; same reasons.

    Bottom line: vote with your wallet, and let your friends know.
     
  23. mr.trooper

    mr.trooper Member

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    I have the same problem.

    The only gun shop in our tiny town of 400 people is in the basement of a grumpy cantankerous old man who keeps no stock. I don't buy from him.

    There is another one in the next town 'up', about 15 miles away... and the guy is completely unethical - the ONE time I almost purchased a gun from him, I left to get money out of the bank, and came back to find the pistol I wanted had jumped in price by $200 in the 1/2 hour I had been gone. :rolleyes:

    There was another one in the town 20 miles over that had a range attached. It was a hole in the wall. The owner of that one had sky high prices, AND beat the hell out of his own merchandise - new PSL's with the dog ears bent over (because he drops them), new Sig stainless 232's that had been scratched to hell (because he dangles a pistol from each finger when putting them out or away, and they all slide against each other), and the one that takes the cake; a new unfired Remington 700 that he let RUST, AND had the bolt stolen out of it at a gun show - STILL on his wall a year later at full MSRP. :rolleyes:

    There is another shop in a town about 30 miles away, and it is wonderful - large open floor plan, high ceiling, spotless housekeeping, taxidermy animals, professional uniformed staff, and huge selection of guns without looking 'cluttered'... their prices aren't that great either... but I buy from them exclusively. It pays to deal with a professional business, instead of the other clowns who 'play FFL'.
     
  24. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Well, I'd say go elsewhere. Go to Mom and Pops or take a road trip and order your stuff online.

    I have a similar experience. I was (key word, WAS) a regular patron of a local gun shop. I dropped several hundred dollars there in just a couple years on both in stock guns and online gun orders/FFL transfers.

    I put up with some of their arrogance and curtness and some rudeness. The typical "I know more than you" attitude.

    However, when I deployed I sent my girlfriend there for her to buy her first handgun for her home defense. They robbed her, charging her probably 10% more than I would have expected for the gun.

    Then I called and said I wanted to order a few guns while I was deployed and asked if they'd hold them for me. The answer was "No - we no longer do FFL transfers for online guns."

    I'm puzzled why a gun shop would not take FFL transfer cash, like $25 per transaction. That leads to a larger discussion -

    The point is I am NO LONGER a customer of theirs. They don't want to conduct normal business as an FFL, I found someone else who is more than willing and they'll get my business.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2011
  25. RONSERESURPLUS

    RONSERESURPLUS member

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    Hello all, RON here

    I find myself in Full agreement with Sam1911! I would say that all shops have Strengths and weakness! Ive had a few bad expereinces i shops and a talk with the management either fixed it, or did not? If not, then my butt was never in that door again? You give the manager a chance to fix the problem, and it's on him to do it, or shop elsewhere? If they fix the Prob, good to go and rock on and see what happens, if not, you shop eleswhere and In my case, I take the time to drop that manager a Note, tell him what was wrong again, that you won't be shopping trhere again and again why and thats on him, enough folks do that and they will either change or go out of Business or Continue on and in each case your not harmed by it?

    As far as ammo selecion FMJ, HP and such, I find it a persoanl option, not one that a Shop will well advise me, unles he's familuar with shat I do, how I do it, with what handgun and in what circumstances? I use FMJ in some of my handguns others not? I have been involved in Officer related shootings and I know what works for me! One of my shootings was witha 1 9MM (BHP Off Duty weapon) and the shooting was ruled justifable and the Perp will no longer be bothering anyne, if you catch my drift! That day, it was 115 GN FMJ and my center of mass shots did the job and he crumpled like a tin can and was out of the fight early on! Was witness to anther shooting of a fellow who had robbed a bank and took 4 well placed shots from a 40 cal (HP) to the chest and fough on, till was taken down with a Blast of a 12GA (00 Buchshot)! We even checked him for body armor as he acted like he was never even hit, despite 4 well placed center of mass shots once we cuffed him and checked him for injuries? No one has all the anwsers and life is not a Fixed sport or event! Use what ya know, how ya know it, when ya know it and be much better off than what Gun shop commando's or well meaning folks pass on to you as "THE FACT?
     
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