Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Spyvie, Feb 9, 2008.
so please be super careful. i really like talking to you guys and would miss any of you.
Well, I do recall this as being one of the Ten Rules of gun safety when I was growing up. I'm sure others remember this as well, and just saying that "every gun is always loaded" doesn't cut it.
The "Ten Rules" covered circumstances of actual handling, not merely basic concepts to be extrapolated to actual handling.
I've always objected to the "condensation" of the Ten Rules to four, and I'll bet a lot of OTs agree.
Anyhow, I'll grant that if this particular firearm discharged on opening of the bolt, as you say the 700 used to, it might have been an "accidental" discharge. However, I've gone to the trouble of keeping a 5 gallon bucket of sand in my shop when I had one. So why didn't they have a "clearing barrel" of sand? Or why didn't they use it?
ETA No, it wasn't a gun shop, but a hobby machine shop where I would tinker with firearms. And I know 5 gallons of sand would not have stopped a high-power rifle bullet, but it probably would have stopped a .243 or about any common pistol round.
everyone is quick to self-righteously piss on the employee and the gun owner.
Tell me you have never ever done anything contrary to safe firearm handling rules. Tell me you have never had a "whoops, lemme fix that" moment. Tell me you have never been in front of the barrel of a firearm, even for a second, even accidentally. I know I have. It wasn't intentional. Sometimes it was someone else's fault. But people make mistakes. I venture to say that the only difference between us and them is that their gun was loaded and went off. Yes, that's the only difference that matters. But the fact is we have ALL broken all ten of the rules at some point or another. Most of the time we get away with it. But it only takes once.
Don't think that because you got away with it and they didn't means you are any less at fault for violation of safe firearm handling. because yours or my whoops-moment could be just as bad someday.
The goal? No whoops-moments...EVER.
For safety maybe people should start assuming when cleaning, or dealing with a firearm that it always is going to have an accident.
No matter what we've all done at least one thing stupid that could have resulted in some accident.
Which reminds me, I've got to get one set up at my new house...
Just an angled bucket of sand?
The above was posted quite early in the discussion.
If it was a mechanical problem and since it was taken to a gunshop(gunsmith) it surely should have been pointed in a SAFE direction.
and as noted--MUZZLE CONTROL-no sweeping allowed-esp with a potential defect??
I was at a range and a store clerk was showing a a person a weapon and pointing it at several persons, I asked her to point it in another direction, her response was, it is not loaded I told her that won't cut it, get it out of my face. I am not sure if I'll be welcome back
Regarding the problem with pointing it at someone, I would imagine the situation will haunt the location for some time to come. The more press the more cautious others will be or not!!!
He is doing ok.
Also, every gun shop I've been to has been one floor. Even the gigantic stores have been one floor. I'm pretty sure there was a unviersally safe direction to point the muzzle in that would have been impossible to walk in front of.
If you really think about this, it really does come down to not checking the action and muzzle control. There's never ever a scenario where you're unable to propperly follow the rules of gun safety. It's always possible, it's not always easy however. This sad case is negligence.
The largest private owner gun store in Little Rock is two stories. Sales on the first floor, with an indoor firing range in the basement... Come to think of it, I've been to a couple of places with a similar arrangement.
Richard Bacher, 56, of Grand Junction was apparently working on a .243-caliber rifle brought to the shop by a Loma man, when the gun discharged. A single bullet struck Kenny Franklin, 53, of Grand Junction, in the abdomen. Franklin was walking past the gun at the time of the accident.
Franklin remains in St. Mary’s Hospital after weekend surgery.
Investigators say an investigation into the incident is ongoing, and they expect to complete it within a couple of weeks.
Bacher served as police chief with the Delta police department for a little more than a year, resigning from the job in September. Bacher also worked on patrol with the Grand Junction Police Department from October 1976 through September 2002.
1. The owner forgot that there was one in the chamber.
2. The owner was getting it fixed because of a round stuck in the chamber.
A nice lady brought in her Glock 23 and showed us that an ammo round was stuck in the chamber. Being an unlicensed gunsmith, I recommended to take the gun to one and always know where your pointing. I wonder how it was fixed.
Jerry looked like he hadn't slept since Friday night, and Rich was very, very somber. He's not a real loud guy to start with, but man, the look in his eyes was just awful.
The thing that pisses me off about this is that they may press charges.
I work in a business where I go into people's homes. I SEE EVERYTHING.
Right now, I can drive to a house I know where there are two parents smoking pot with two 12-or-under girls who look like they've never been really taken care of. And it gets better...according to two friends of mine who work in our local correctional facilities, they would not be incarcerated because the jails are too full. In fact, most drug violations are not even prosecuted out here for this reason. What the heck is wrong with this picture? Our local authorities would blow my drug reports off, yet they would go to lengths to prosecute an ex-chief?
I'm not saying that this incident is no big deal, but for crying out loud.
Who's at the greater fault? The guy holding the rifle, or the guy who walked in front of it?
Thank you for that news. Welcome to THR; I wish that the circumstances of your first post here were happier.
We all hope that he'll make a full recovery.
I'm glad the man looks to be recovering; hopefully, as the facts emerge we will learn this was an accident caused by a gun in disrepair and not (exclusively) by improper handling.
"PavePusher how do you prepare one of those?
Just an angled bucket of sand?"
The ones I'm most familiar with are a metal (I suppose you could also use plastic) 55 gallon barrel, usually with a clamp-on type removable cover (makes it much easier to fill/empty barrel and recycle trapped bullets). For the home user, you could probably get away with a 20-to-30-odd gallon barrel for pistol-only use, stick with larger for any long gun. Cover should have about a 2-3" (5-8cm) muzzle hole dead center. Fill barrel 3/4 to 4/5 of full with fine-to-medium sand. Place barrel on a stand or earth mound, angled upwards at 30-45 deg, length of barrel pointed in safest possible direction. Height should place muzzle hole at approx. between hip-to-rib height. Adjust sand level so as to not spill out hole and allow muzzle to be placed at least 1 inch into barrel, or enough to cover any porting/compensator vents.
To use: Engage safety. Place muzzle into hole as described above, pointing down center-line of barrel. Remove magazine. Cycle action, ejecting any loaded round, and inspect chamber and action. Dry fire weapon. If you get a BOOM instead of a click, repeat from begining as required. Engage safety. Sling/holster weapon. Adjust procedure as required for your make/model of weapon.
If you got the BOOM, report directly to your 1rst Sgt, cause he's gonna have your ass anyway, and you might as well get it over with.
This is as best I remember it right now, I'll run it by some other folks and correct as needed. If anyone knows better, let me know ASAP, so I can fix what I'm doing.
Well, if he didn't understand the basic concept that if a muzzleloader doesn't fire the first time, adding more projectiles is pointless, he might not comprehend the simple concept of "$30 per pull".
I guess "$30 per pull" is too simply worded for those fluent in leegalspeek.
To be shot is serious bad, in a location that should know better. Now you want to blame the recipient of the bullet
The Shop is going to get sued big time I would think, hope they have good insurance. Plus the shooter will be sued for his actions.
That is what we are referring to about responsible behavior and proper laws to help those who are victims, not freedom to shoot folks without any consequences
You want guns and fireams and then when someone shoots accidently you want a free pass
If he knew it was there and "forgot" to say so, ditto.
The employee certainly should have checked, and certainly should have placed it where no one could walk in front, OR, pointed it in the safest direction possible and cautioned everyone to avoid the muzzle.
The military rule, which I can't forget after running arms rooms numerous times, which I always follow, is that the armorer assembles or clears the weapon, hands it to the recipient, who clears the weapon. Upon return, the procedure is repeated.
If you come to my house to look at weapons, I will clear the chamber visually, hand you the weapon open and insist you verify same, and repeat upon return.
This is not "paranoia," this is SAFETY. EVEN FOR WEAPONS THAT AMMO NO LONGER IS MADE FOR, OR ARE NONFUNCTIONAL.
There was no "accident" here. There was NEGLIGENCE on one or more party's part--either customer for not noting condition, employee for not checking, or the poor guy who walked in front of a muzzle.
"Oh, but what if there's no safe place to point it?"
Then you don't run a gun store. End of discussion.
As Pusher says, a clearing barrel can be made from a $5 scrap barrel, some arc-welded supports, $5 in sand and a can of spray paint. A 5 gal drum of sand suffices for pistols.
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