Gun Snatched....help me guys!

[Flintknapper]

Good evening gentlemen.

I need your help in the form of participation in this poll.

I reside in Texas...and have held a CHL for the last 11 years. We are having a discussion about Open Carry at this site:

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/index.php

Thread:
http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/viewtopic.php?t=10360&highlight=

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=4983&forum_id=7

I have searched this forum already, but have not found what I feel is the answer to my question(s).

The person I am having a discussion with is of the opinion that Open Carry is too dangerous to attempt in an "urban" environment. His concern is that your weapon is apt to be "snatched" by someone.

To be fair to this gentleman, I readily concede it is "possible" but challenge the likelihood of it. He submits... that so few people actually carry in "urban" areas.. that he can provide no proof of whether or not it actually occurs.

In all his travels, he cites that he witnessed only two people Open Carrying in an Urban area (City of any size).

This is where I turn to you, and Thank You in advance for your time and participation.

Urban area= Any city of more than 10,000 residents...and you must have been among the public in some type of setting.

Please withhold the use of expletives in any replies, it will save us the trouble of editing them later.

If you are a member of OpenCarry.org and have participated in the poll there please do not vote here.

Again, Thank You....

Flint.

 

[JohnKSa]

It has happened. It's rare because open carry is rare.

Here's an ongoing discussion that contains a verifiable instance of an OC'er having his gun snatched. (Post 11)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=306730

...that he can provide no proof of whether or not it actually occurs.

IMO this is a ludicrous argument.

Whether or not it has occurred (it happens that it has) it doesn't take a huge leap of logic to determine that it certainly CAN happen.

LEOs have guns taken from them in spite of training and specialized holsters designed to prevent it.

Gunstores are held up by armed robbers in spite of the fact that most gun store clerks are armed--usually OC.

Just because something is rare (or even if it has never happened) doesn't mean it CAN'T happen. That kind of reasoning is what led to the past belief that travelling at the breakneck speed of 60mph would kill a human being.

 

[Flintknapper]

Thank You for the reference John.

That is the gentleman I referred to in my post.

Of course, I am not contesting that it can (and does) happen, I posted that in my opening statement. We are both trying to gather information concerning the subject so that we might all learn something.

Again, thanks for the reply.

Flint.

 

[waterhouse]

Do you want LEOs to vote? Being in Texas, the only time I open carried was in uniform, but no one in the high crime city of Laredo ever tried to take my gun from me.

 

[Flintknapper]

Hi Waterhouse,

I see you are from my old "stomping grounds" (Austin).

To answer your question, no....the discussion to date has been about civilians Open Carrying and the frequency (or lack of) gun snatchings.

Primarily, I am seeking persons who OC in urban areas, secondary to that is any info on "snatchings". Both I and the other gentleman recognize that a poll from a small sampling will be imperfect. We are just trying to gather information that is somewhat verifiable.

I believe the snatching instances would be rare (certainly possible), and he believes otherwise. In any case, we are looking for information that will serve to educate us all.

Thank you Sir!

 

[Soap]

I've not personally heard of any instance where a private citizen had their CCW "snatched" while open carrying. Of course, as John said, it is entirely possible. But as a cowardly BG, why attack a well-armed person when there are plenty of people in condition white that won't even put up a fight? I've open carried in an urban area and never had a problem of any kind, other than some guys eyeballing me when I was pumping gas. Maybe they didn't like 1911s. As usual, awareness is key.

 

[JesseL]

Here is an account of some of my experiences:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=296200

I've OC'ed hundreds of times by now with ZERO incidents.

I've only had one person react in a manner even approaching hostile. A couple weeks ago I was out for a walk with my wife when an older gentleman asked (In the rudest and most confrontational tone he could manage) "Why do you need a pistol to walk down the street!?". Being a little annoyed, I replied "In case I need to shoot something". In retrospect I suppose I could have been a little more diplomatic.

 

[JohnKSa]

I believe the snatching instances would be rare...

They will DEFINITELY be rare. As I put it on the other thread, it's rare for the same reason that car damage from hitting California Condors is rare.

But that doesn't mean that it's impossible to hit a California Condor with a car, and it also doesn't mean that cars are impervious to damage from California Condors.

Being a little annoyed, I replied "In case I need to shoot something".

Another voter "educated" by an OC'er.

I've not personally heard of any instance where a private citizen had their CCW "snatched" while open carrying.

Now you have.

 

[TexasRifleman]

If that argument were to be true then Police Officers would regularly have their weapons taken since they all open carry (for the most part).

What percentage of officers have their weapon taken from their holsters?

That would give you a rough starting place. I'm betting it's a pretty small number.

 

[JohnKSa]

What percentage of officers have their weapon taken from their holsters?

Training and the common use of retention holsters makes it harder. But it does happen, and not infrequently, even with the precautions.

Here's an article by Massad Ayoob claiming that retention training techniques have "saved over a thousand cops in documented gun-snatch attempts".

The article also addresses the issue of gun store clerks/operators who OC and have had their guns grabbed.

 

[230RN]

Off-topic. Sorry.

 

[Flintknapper]

Fellas,

With all due respect, I am not really looking for personal opinions or a debate about the tactical soundness of such a method of carry.

This thread will quickly get off track if we go there.

I am just asking for your participation in the form of a vote, or direction to other pertinent information.

I apologize if that sounds like a "newbie" scolding the regulars here, that is not my intent or my nature. I just need for this thread to be as purposeful as possible.

Thanks,

Flint.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

JohnKsa writes: Here's an article by Massad Ayoob claiming that retention training techniques have saved "saved over a thousand cops in documented gun-snatch attempts".

Wow! A thousand documented snatch attempts (from cops). I had read that article before but missed that detail.

That's a lot of attempted snatchings.

 

[TehK1w1]

Hiya Flint!

 

[Louisiana Carry]

i Pressed The Wrong Button Accidentally! Please Disregard The 1 Vote For Option Two. Sorry.

 

[Citroen]

Far fetched

That a criminal type would deliberately walk up to a person opening carrying a gun and attempt to "snatch" said gun is pretty far fetched. I would submit that most (if not all) cases involving police took place when the Officer had engaged the suspect and was attempting to affect an arrest.

You can research it if you please, but for my money, opening carrying a firearm is a deterrent in itself.

John
Charlotte, NC

 

[Sistema1927]

Are Phoenix, Tucson, Albuquerque, and Las Cruces urban enough for you? I have open carried in all four locales, and have never had an attempted snatch.

 

[JohnKSa]

That a criminal type would deliberately walk up to a person opening carrying a gun and attempt to "snatch" said gun is pretty far fetched.

1. This thread contains a link to a police report where exactly what you describe happened.

2. This thread contains a link to an article describing cases where gun store clerks/operators had exactly what you describe happen to them.

 

[Flintknapper]

That a criminal type would deliberately walk up to a person opening carrying a gun and attempt to "snatch" said gun is pretty far fetched. I would submit that most (if not all) cases involving police took place when the Officer had engaged the suspect and was attempting to affect an arrest.

I have to agree with this statement when we consider the environment and duties of LEO. It only make sense...that if any group were to experience a gun snatching, then ordinary citizens would make a more tempting target.

Even the dumbest criminals know that LEO have retention skills, retention holsters, empty hands training, OC, a baton or ASP, probably a knife...etc

Surely, most of these instances are the result of a struggle and the officer initiated the contact.

But thats a whole different subject.

 

[Flintknapper]

Hiya Flint!

Hey Kiwi! Good to hear from ya.

You still on the ranch?

Oh yeah, OC content:

Frankie, that 1,000 attempted snatchings of cops weapons would make a good study for you. It might be tough to verify...and we would need to know what period of time it covered, then compare it to the total number of LEO over that time period. If you find out anything....let us know, I'm curious as well.

 

[JohnKSa]

Frankie, that 1,000 attempted snatchings of cops weapons...

It actually referred to OVER a thousand attempted snatchings where the officer prevented the snatch due to a specific type of retention training.

That means that there were many more gun snatches that were either prevented by other means or that were successful.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Lots of people are scared silly of carrying openly.

 

[Flintknapper]

It actually referred to OVER a thousand attempted snatchings where the officer prevented the snatch due to a specific type of retention training.

That means that there were many more gun snatches that were either prevented by other means or that were successful.

Probably true. Now how do you intend to make this analogous to civilians OCing?

Surely, you are not suggesting this would be a fair comparison?

Even Frankie pretty much backed off of that notion when it was discussed on the TexasCHLforum.

 

[sturmgewehr]

Cops are in a unique situation... they are high profile and they are out looking for confrontation. The average citizen isn't out confronting BG's... therefore it's not as likely they run the same risk a LEO does with regards to having their gun snatched.

However, with that said, it can happen... but then you can be killed by a meteor falling from the sky too.

 

[JohnKSa]

Probably true. Now how do you intend to make this analogous to civilians OCing?

Surely, you are not suggesting this would be a fair comparison?

I initially posted the link to the article in response to:

If that argument were to be true then Police Officers would regularly have their weapons taken since they all open carry (for the most part).

What percentage of officers have their weapon taken from their holsters?

I posted the clarification in response to:

...that 1,000 attempted snatchings of cops weapons would make a good study for you.

I never implied it was analogous to civilians OC'ing, if anyone on this thread has, it was TexasRifleman.

However, the article also contained some incidents in which gun store clerks had open carry guns snatched, and I guess we all know about the Newton Patent/Newton Tavern snatching by now...

However, with that said, it can happen... but then you can be killed by a meteor falling from the sky too.

Several instances of non-LEO's having their gun snatched have been posted on this thread alone. I'd be interested to see some meteor deaths documented since you think that's a fair comparison.