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Guns with better grip angles

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by LoadedDrum, Feb 6, 2005.

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  1. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    If you're having problems with your POA not equalling your POI, that has NOTHING to do with "how the gun points" or with its grip angle.

    When people talk about a gun "not pointing right" they're talking about grip angle--how the gun FEELS to them when the sights are aligned--or more specifically where the sights point when they take the grip that works for them on a gun with a grip angle they're USED TO.

    What you're describing is either a trigger technique problem or a sight adjustment issue. Regardless of grip angle, a gun with properly adjusted sights will put its shots where the sights say it will.

    If the Glock is "pointing low" (when your hand/wrist position feels natural, the sights are aligned on a spot lower on the target than you would like) then you're going to have problems finding a gun that "points" higher. The Glock grip angle is about as steep as you will find which means it "points" as high as or higher than most guns currently on the market.

    BTW, this thread is a perfect example of why the phrase "this gun doesn't point right" is one of my pet peeves. What people REALLY mean to say is that "the grip angle of this gun is not what I'm used to". The first statement implies that the gun is somehow "pointing itself" when the issue is really one of grip angle and shooter familiarity.
     
  2. Black Majik

    Black Majik Member

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    Try:

    1911
    BHP
    SIG P-series.
    CZ
     
  3. schild

    schild Member

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    CZ P01, HK P7M8, HK 2000 is better than the Walther P99.
     
  4. Zach S

    Zach S Member

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    The the G17 I had pointed high in my right hand, where a 1911 points naturally.

    Oddly enough, the glock pointed great in my left hand, where a 1911 was low.
     
  5. LoadedDrum

    LoadedDrum Member

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    I would just like to thank every one for posting useful responses in this thread, even the ones I disagree with. Much better than the answers I got on any other forum I have asked this question on. No wonder they call this THE HIGH ROAD.

    John, you are likely right, my incorrect terminology has likely skewed the answers I have recieved, at least on other forums, but some how, the people here have managed to figure out what I am looking for. This is my new favorite gun forum :)

    I do acknowledge that I NEED to work on my shooting but the only reason I even posted this thread is that all of the problems I have with my Glock 22 seemed to magically disappear when I shot the rented Desert Eagle .50AE. Because of this, I cannot accept that is ENTIRELY just me. I will be trying the baby eagle tommorrow in 9mm. The other thing I would just like to say is that my Glocks aren't going anywhere, except the range for more practice with them. I like them too much.
     
  6. Pointman1776

    Pointman1776 Member

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    Most natural pointing pistols I own are:
    1. P226ST, followed by P220ST
    2. 1911 (Springfield Armory and Kimber)
    3. Baby Eagle
    4. CZ 75BD & P-01
     
  7. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    The Glock "points" high in your right hand because you have trained your right hand to compensate for the 1911 grip angle.

    The Glock "points" great in your left hand because the grip angle is ergonomically designed to be optimal. Your left hand hasn't been trained to compensate for the 1911 grip angle so it takes a more natural position and the ergonomics of the Glock's grip angle make it "point" properly.

    Before anyone jumps on me for tooting Glock's horn on this, it's worth noting that they are not the first firearm maker to use this grip angle. There have been several gunmakers who did ergonomics studies and arrived at the same grip angle (plus or minus a degree or so) as being the most likely to fit the human hand. I believe that Steyr calls it the "ideal grip angle" and H&K uses this grip angle in their excellent P7 pistol, to name just a couple.
     
  8. Zach S

    Zach S Member

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    Actually, I think its where I shoot longarms left handed. While I no longer have a glock to compare, the grip angles on my Thompson and AR15 are steeper than the 1911.

    The 1911 always pointed well in my right hand, training had nothing to do with it.
     
  9. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    I think any shooter would say the same thing about any gun that they started working with early in their shooting history. In the beginning, shooters concentrate on sight alignment and "pointing" isn't an issue. By the time a shooter begins to realize that some guns "point" different, their hands are already trained.

    I'm not trying to say that the 1911 is no good because of the grip angle. Of couse, given the wide variety among humans, some folks will find it ideal for them. However, all of the gun makers that I am aware of who have derived a grip angle based on ergonomic studies alone have come up with something closer to 20 degrees.

    I'm stating grip angles as degrees off of a right angle. Some state them as total angle. So what I call a 20 degree angle is a 110 degree angle in the other terminology. For reference, the Luger/P7/Steyr M/Glock grip angle is about 20 degrees (110 degrees) while the 1911A1 grip angle is about 10 degrees (100 degrees).
     
  10. LoadedDrum

    LoadedDrum Member

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    I rented a Baby Eagle in 9mm today and it worked even better than the Desert Eagle due to the lack of recoil.
     
  11. dmallind

    dmallind Member

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    Not sure my opinion is worth much...

    ....since I have shot precisely four different autoloaders and handled maybe only ten or twelve total.

    However it strikes me that grip and comfort would depend a lot on the size of your hands and what you are accustomed to. This latter aspect happens very quickly in any manual task, not just firearms. I am a case in point.

    Again I'm as new as it gets so there is no expertise behind this opinion but I handled a range of 9mms and .40s before buying the G19 - Taurus, Ruger, SW, HK, Springfield among them. I bought the Glock 3 minutes after first holding it. My shortish but thickish fingers fit into the grips like they were custom made. That reviled grip angle meant I could get my whole first joint past the trigger rather than just the tip of my finger in some cases. The magazine-filled grip was just long enough to securely fit all my fingers but not so long it was unwieldy beneath them, while the width of the grip made a secure and comfortable snug fit in the web of my hand. Of all the guns I tried this was the only one that did point well and naturally for me in the store.

    I knew instantly that's what I should buy. I tried a Walther P22 and a P99 and a CZ100 at the range today - my instructor acquaintance kindly let me sample his guns too. These may be excellent weapons indeed and certainly he shot them very accurately (I'm not good enough to shoot ANYTHING accurately yet but I was a hell of a lot closer to that w/the Glock. The CZ in particular was just uncontrollable in my tyro hands :uhoh: )

    My point is not that I'm right and you're wrong it's just that I would imagine it is very difficult to judge what fits everyone or indeed anyone without trying it out. I guess I happen to have "Glock hands" and you don't. I CAN say that of the ones I held the one most UNlike the Glock is the CZ so that might be worth a try if the Glock just doesn't fit you at all.
     
  12. Surefire

    Surefire Member

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    I like CZ 75 grip, following by Sig 220 grip
     
  13. PCRit

    PCRit Member

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    RE:grip

    Well..... CZ PCR.... :D I really like the 1911 (DW PM7-S), Taurus PT145 or PT111 grip angles too...
     
  14. cuate

    cuate Member

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    Grip angles

    I think the worst is the Luger . I have loved them since I saw my first but they have a horrible grip angle. I still love then for their ingenuity in design, the superior machining in manufacturing, Mine is seldom shot but I would never part with it as I got it from a former Wehrmacht soldier.

    The P-38 is a different story and were it not a 9mm mouse killer it would be my favorite but we come to the 1911 in .45ACP and that is where it is in grip angle and reliability, period. but I can live with a Glock, as a second choice.
     
  15. dav

    dav Member

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    John, I don't want to belabor a minor point, but shoes built on a European last do not fit me.

    I started pistol shooting later in life, never having fired one until I was in my late 40's. There was absolutely no training involved. I rented a Kimber .45 Gold Match and it felt really good. After a few shots, I tried "it". I held the gun out with my eyes closed, and tried pointing at the target. Then opened my eyes to see how close I was. I was sighting at the 8 ring left of the X. Left hand pointed at the 6 ring. Both were exactly on horizontally, just off on left-right orientation. (single hand hold in both cases)

    Later I had a chance to try a Beretta Neos (my wife's gun). When I try the same thing, pointing with my eyes closed, it is missing the target backing completely.

    This is not training. 1911 simply fits me, where some other grip angles do not.
     
  16. jmilliron

    jmilliron Member

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    I have no issue pointing either my fullsize 1911 or my HK USP Compact. Great grip angle for me.

    -jason m
     
  17. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    ;) However, the majority of folks (who haven't already got muscle memory) will do better with a steeper grip angle--according to the ergonomics studies.
    This is absolutely NOT a Europe vs. U.S. issue. When Remington P51 pistol was being developed the gun maker did an extensive study including making casts of hundreds of human hands. The results of the study caused them to choose the same 20 degree grip angle used by the other guns/makers listed above. This also isn't a matter of Browning vs Other Gunmakers. FWIW, Browning's original 1911 (and his other early pistols) had very little grip angle--even less than the 1911A1. It's highly likely that the slightly more raked grip angle evident in the 1911A1 (compared to his earlier designs) was the result of Army input -- likely some sort of compromise between the original design and what the Army wanted.
     
  18. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    JohnKSa

    How is grip angle measured? Is it the angle of the front of the grip, the back of the grip, or an average of the two? What about guns that have a relatively straight backstrap versus those that have a pronounced recess for the web of the hand?

    I have recently been comparing the "shootability" of guns in relation to their grip angles and have been very surprised by the results.
     
  19. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Two methods.

    You can tell which one was used because one will result in a number that is generally between 0 and 25 degrees while the second will result in a number that is generally between 90 and 115 degrees.

    In the first method, you project a line that is perpendicular (at right angles) to the bore straight down through the grip.

    Then you measure the difference between the angle of the grip and the line.


    In the second method, you measure the angle between the bore (starting from the muzzle) and the grip.

    The difference between the numbers is 90 degrees so it's easy to convert back and forth.
     
  20. Clean97GTI

    Clean97GTI Member

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    If grip angle and trigger pull are important, I'd look at the Steyr S or M series. Very comfy and a natural pointer. I can aim it. close my eyes and fire and have a good chance of hitting what I aimed at.

    To those who keep saying that the XD has a grip like a 1911, I'd be more apt to say the XD borrows its shape from the BHP or CZ75 type pistols.
     
  21. SamlautRanger

    SamlautRanger member

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    why don't you just send your Glock to www.arizonaresponsesystems.com and have the Glock grips front and back straps resized to give a better grip angle? Cost around $150 and gives the grips some texture.

    Now if they would only make Glocks with walnut grips!! :p
     
  22. acpoulos

    acpoulos Member

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    Springfield XD

    Tony
     
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