Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Gunshop tactical gurus and brand bashing

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Bezoar, Apr 6, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Bezoar

    Bezoar member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,616
    I have been thinking on these two topics real well lately as I dont have much to do these days. And here are my supposition.

    We all know that each manufacturer of handguns has bad gusn go out the door, cant be denied or hidden. Some brands merely have more issues then others, but are still worthwhile firearms.
    But we also see the tactical gun store guru who likes to spout myth and lies off as fact, benefits from brand bashing.

    Why does the "tactical gunstore guru" get help from gun bashing? Lets have an example that happens more then we like.

    Guru: How can i help you sir?
    customer: Well Im thinking about buying a nice low priced handgun, say a
    lorcin or a hi-point, maybe a Kel-tec in 9mm for ccw.
    Guru: Are you an idiot sir? are you trying to commit suicide by purchasing a
    piece of crap like that?
    Cust: But I just read some good reviews on those brands in "insert fav gun
    rag" and saw that the hi-point/kel-tec/lorcin are good for the job and
    the money.
    Guru: Sir/mamm, I cant honestly sell you such a low priced peice of crap
    because that round 9mm/380/32 is such a worthless self defense round
    Cust: but the gun magazines ....
    Guru: *pulling out his favorite gun rags*, well the authors in this magazine
    dont get free guns form the makers or kick backs (even though they
    do get kickbacks and free guns)
    Cust: oh ok, ill quick look at those articles in your magazines
    Guru: i can tell ya now you need at least a 45 for self defense, but if you
    dont want stopping power ill sell this plastic crap in 9mm/32/380 to ya.
    cust: *after reading articles saying 45 is minimum caliber* well i guess your
    right on caliber, so i guess your right on not using that plastic crap, so
    what can you recommend?
    guru: well lets see, i have this really spiffy looking Kinber in stainless steel
    for only 1200..........


    Just an example but it does happen. But just who else has made this correlation of bad gun myth and brand bashing to help the gunstore guru sell high priced guns to people who want low price?
     
  2. sierrabravo45

    sierrabravo45 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    180
    Location:
    Between Idaho and Montana
    I agree with the gun guru.

    High Points are POS.
     
  3. PotatoJudge

    PotatoJudge Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,332
    Location:
    Texas
    As with any important purchase, research before hand and/or take someone who knows what they're doing.

    The gunshop guru has come up quite a bit recently, they're entertaining or infuriating depending on your perspective.

    And the newer Kel-tecs are supposed to be reliable and durable.
     
  4. Glockfan.45

    Glockfan.45 member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,369
    Location:
    Democratic Peoples Republic of Illinois
    :scrutiny: Lorcin.........Your joking right? Sorry but there is no excuse for a Lorcin, Jennings, Raven, Davis ect. Save a few extra bucks and splurge on a High Point at least. Not all low cost guns are bad but the three I listed belong at the bottom of a garbage can. Other than that i get your point.
     
  5. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    11,691
    Location:
    North Idaho
    Not Quite The Same

    There is a gun shoppe in our area (Reno) that simply will not carry certain brands or certain types of certain brands.

    Their policy is that if a brand gives them more than a certain amount of trouble, they just quit carrying it altogether, rather than "advising" against it.

    For example, they will simply not sell a Taurus auto pistol. They will sell their revolvers, however. Same for Ruger. The Taurus autos they won't carry because of reliability issues and problems with support. Ruger autos are shunned because customers kept complaining about accuracy.

    Likewise, Kel-tec autos simply aren't there.

    Various specific models (certain revolvers, certain auto calibres) of certain brands are also missing.

    They're pretty unapologetic about it.

    Their policy: "If we stock it, it's because we're willing to stand behind the guarantee ourselves; if the factory fails to fix it, we'll make it right."

    I bought my XD40 there, also a used Ruger MkII, a CX4 Storm in 9mm, and a 336C in .30-30 (blue/walnut).

    I can't buy a Taurus PT1911 there, nor could I have bought my wife's PT111 from them, and (hardly surprising) they don't have Hi Point either.

    They're decent folk, but they don't suffer fools gladly, and they tend to run a "hard sell" shop. They've taken the trouble to show me the take-down and clean/lube procedure of everything I've bought there.

    I'm doing more shopping at a friendlier store, but I know that if I buy something from the "brusque" guys that it will be a solid buy.

    So far I've been fortunate with not running into the "what you REALLY need . . ." crowd.
     
  6. BHPshooter

    BHPshooter Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,451
    Location:
    Utah
    Well, to be perfectly honest, the Hi Point is pretty much crap. We carry them, and although a lot of them run fine, too many of them come back with problems. They are hot sellers :uhoh: :barf: and it should be pointed out that they actually have a stand-up factory warranty behind them. Of course, I view traits like brick-like physique and top-heavy nature as problems themselves, but I digress.

    You can get a solid, reliable defensive handgun for not much more than it costs to get a Hi Point. Makarovs can be had for very reasonable prices, as well as the newer Taurus Millenium Pros. Used guns, especially Glocks and Ruger autos, can be had for great prices. We sell used Rugers in the $250 range.

    Wes
     
  7. distra

    distra Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,799
    Location:
    IA
    He was right about the .45ACP :neener:
     
  8. Dr. Dickie

    Dr. Dickie Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,186
    Location:
    Jacksonville Beach, FL
    Salesmen are salesmen, that is often all it is. They are pushing iron like every used car salesmen in America.
    Sure some of the younger ones actually believe what they say, but over time they learn the truth, or they learn what life is like alone. With age, CAN come wisdom, it all depends on how you live your life.
     
  9. logical

    logical Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    637
    Location:
    MI
    Take out the word "gun" and insert "tires", TV's", "repacement windows", "almost anything".....the story is the same. It's expensive to go through life un-informed. Gun shops didn't invent stupidity but they have raised it to an art form.
     
  10. P0832177

    P0832177 member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2003
    Messages:
    896
    Location:
    Mpls.,MN
    The other part of the equation is that I would bet that upwards of 80 maybe even a high percentage of gun owners are just that, gun owners. They are not shooters. I know this has foundation. So many people just own guns, and they are complacent in that they have "the gun". Now, as ammo prices have risen like the thermometer in the AZ desert on a summer day I bet that is even more true. Look at 9mm WWB at Wally world was running 100 perK now 150 per K, and 45ACP was 200 per K, now 270 per K. More and more people are getting in to reloading as evidenced by the # number of noob posts. So, the purchaser looking at low end guns is just not looking for something to take the range, but rather to own....

    What was it that Jeff Cooper said about the Star PD? A gun to be carried a lot and shot very little.......
     
  11. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    9,633
    Location:
    Forestburg, Texas
    I also agree with the gun guru as a general rule. My experience has been that the price of the gun does not determine reliability, but it does seem to be a percentage game. That game is basically that high end expensive guns have a much greater likelihood of being consistently proper functioning guns than low end cheapo guns. Sure, some Kel Tecs, Lorcins, Hi Points do work very well. A buddy of mine has a Bersa Thunder .380 that seems to be an outstanding lower end inexpensive gun. Of the several I have seen of that model, however, it is the only one that seems to work well, however.

    Actually, it bothers me more that gun stores will sell low end guns to people who don't want to shell out the $ for a quality gun to protect themselves and their loved ones and the gun store folks will promote the low end guns as being sufficient for the task of self defense. For example, how many folks buy Kel-Tecs for self defense, believing they are a good self defense gun, but without ever knowing that a tremendous number of Kel Tecs need to be fluffed and buffed by the purchaser before they are likely to be reliable? How many are aware that Kel Tec has a great service reputation because so many people have to send in their new guns for service?

    I am impressed with the gun store folks who ask the appropriate questions of the customer in hopes of finding a proper match between the customer, the customer's needs, and the gun. As I overheard one clerk say, "I will gladly sell you any of these guns, but that doesn't mean they will be appropriate for what you have in mind." The customer had come to the decision that a Calico pistol with a 50 round rotary magazine was going to be a good home defense gun.
     
  12. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    3,743
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    A lot of this is personal perception on the part of the counter guy, or more to the point usually the owner. I've been on both sides of the counter, and currently work (part-time) in a shop that generally doesn't carry the types of firearms I personally like. They, fer instance, don't sell Kimbers, (Too many went back to the factory, supposedly) yet I've shot a few, and the reliability has been 100%. As mentioned, not many Taurus autos go out the doors, but at another shop I worked at, we never had to use the lifetime gaurantee they have. Go figure. This shop caters to the high-buck Browning and Beretta shotgunners, and the bias against other types of guns shows. (BTW, I have nothing aganist Browning and Beretta shotguns. I like them. A lot. Please contribute to my "Buy entropy a Urika" fund c/o THR....) ;)
    I find the truest opinion of a gun will be from a friend who owns one, and usually, they will let you try theirs!:D I've bought more than one gun this way. Matter of fact, White Horseradish....we need to talk. :)
     
  13. Innova

    Innova Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    75
    Location:
    Canton Ohio
    :)
    This made me smile.
     
  14. Sniper X

    Sniper X Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    2,635
    Location:
    New Mexico
    I have a love hate deal with gun shop "gurus". I find it interesting in sometimes a bad way that when I go into a place like Sportsmans Warehouse and go to the gun counter to look at something, a just over 21 year old kid, or even a guy in his 30s talks to me like I know nothing about guns because he has a different opinion about what gun is "best". Or just the look you get at the counter from the employees sometimes. I have been shooting since 1968, and have been into competition for years at the club level, and have been a firearms instructor and done firearms training videos for my company, and for gunsite training Center for years. So I do actually know a bit about guns!

    But a guy with my kowledge and background can walk into a gun shop and the 23 year old behind the counter can treat me like a noob!

    I also love the fact that whatever "they" have behind the counter is better than what you have or what you wnat that they don't have!
     
  15. kola

    kola member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    53
    whats a noob?

    Kola;)
     
  16. Dr. Dickie

    Dr. Dickie Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,186
    Location:
    Jacksonville Beach, FL
    A newbie. Someone who is "new" to something. Someone with limited experience or knowledge of some subject.
    Noob is a computerese.
     
  17. Big Calhoun

    Big Calhoun Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Messages:
    554
    I think one of the things I learned from lurking on the boards was to do and trust my own research first. Really, this is something I practice with all big ticket purchases; computers, cars, appliances, electronics, etc. I mean, a business is a business and they do what they do to stay in business. Besides, nobody is going to take of me better than, me.
     
  18. Ala Dan

    Ala Dan Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    12,879
    Location:
    Home Of The First Capitol Of The Confederate State
    I also agree with the "gun guru", as related to High Points, Lorcins, Brycos,
    Ravens, Jennings, etc. My favorite saying to the customer is, "Man you
    ought to throw that gun in the nearest creek, and get yourself a real
    gun"~! ;) :D
     
  19. bass806

    bass806 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    153
    Location:
    West Texas
    Their loss for not selling Keltecs. I have a P11 that is becoming one of my favorite CCWs. I have not had one problem with it.
     
  20. cmidkiff

    cmidkiff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2005
    Messages:
    619
    Location:
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Threads like this one really make me appreciate my local gun store. A gun dealer that isn't afraid to say 'I don't know, but I'll find out...' in response to a question seems to be rare as hen's teeth.

    Drop by Moore Outdoors (http://www.mooreoutdoors.biz) if you're ever in Smithville, MO.
     
  21. obxned

    obxned Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,490
    Location:
    OBX, NC
    I've never owned or shot a Lorcin, Jennings, Raven, or Davis. I have shot HiPoints. They go bang everytime and hit what they are aimed at. Bad-mouthing these cheapo guns is about the same as a car salesman telling you that if you can't afford a Mercedes, then you should just get used to walking.
     
  22. cheygriz

    cheygriz Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    2,245
    Location:
    High up in the Rockies
    I respect a business that has enough integrity to refuse to sell what they consider junk.

    You'r right. They shouldn't bad-mouth a brand. If they consider it junk, they should just refuse to sell it. If I worked in a gun store, and I sold a piece of krap to someone and he, or one of his loved ones got killed because this "piece of krap" didn't work, I'd have trouble living with myself. I'd rsther just refuse to sell it.
     
  23. Taurus92 in KyleTX

    Taurus92 in KyleTX Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    90
    Location:
    Central TX
    My favorite gunstore guru tidbit is that I was window shopping for a hi point carbine, and called a local gunstore to see if they had one (or would order one).

    He said something to the effect of, "I don't sell that gangbanger crap." (All I really recall was his distasteful tone and the reference to gangbangers.)

    The ironic rest of the story... when trying to find a website for the store, a Google search yielded numerous hits on an AP article citing the shop (and the owner) as the supplier to a guy who was illegally reselling them to people that couldn't pass the background check.

    Granted, the owner can't be responsible for what some punk (that can pass the background check) does after the purchase. But, c'mon, drop the high and mighty when you've got _firsthand experience_ with even the "respectable" stuff making it into criminal hands.

    (And, no, I never got the carbine... bought a "respectable" SKS instead. And now, a year later, I just got my AR. :D )
     
  24. Glockfan.45

    Glockfan.45 member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,369
    Location:
    Democratic Peoples Republic of Illinois
    The problem is Lorcin, Jennings, Raven, Davis, and Bryco do not go bang every time you pull the trigger. I try not to be a gun snob, but I will call a junk gun a junk gun when the shoe fits. The brands I listed are not good for anything other than selling to buy back programs for a profit.
     
  25. tinygnat219

    tinygnat219 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2006
    Messages:
    2,939
    Location:
    The Land of Northern Hospitality and Southern Effi
    Glockfan.45,

    I like your "Splurge on a Hi-Point" comment. Made my afternoon.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page