Gunshot at a Gun Show
- Thread starter JoeMal
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kingpin008
Member
Absolute nonsense. While it's a gun vendor's responsibility to know their merchandise and do his or her best to keep people safe around it, there's no way in heck they can be everywhere at once. It's also up to the customer not to be a total moron and pull the trigger on a gun in a packed building without knowing if it's loaded or not.
Should the FFL be more careful in the future? Absolutely. Was this entirely their fault? Not by a freakin' long shot.
david58
Member
If the gun show didn't required that all guns be cleared and rendered inoperable, typically by tie wraps, they get the first piece of credit for this.
The vendor should get a bit of credit for not making the guns inoperable even if not required to. If the guns are not tied down to the table (many vendors here use a long, electronic bike cable lock type thing that keeps any gun from leaving the table without directly removing it and supervising it).
Then all of us get some blame. We tolerate muzzle sweeps, folks pulling triggers, and overall unsafe handling of guns at gun shows. If enough of us complain, I'm confident that the show promoters would fix some of the idiocy in the gun handling, since it is the paying "us" that make the shows work. I left a Gander Mountain two weeks ago after telling them that I will simply never buy a gun from someone that is going to point the doggone thing at me. If we do the same with gun show proprietors, it WILL change. But we have to all act, instead of just talk about it or grumble to ourselves. Shouldn't be too much trouble or pain - many threads re gun shows seem to discuss how high the prices are and how bad the deals.
Sorry about the soapbox...
Millwright
Member
IMNSHO this incident has to be the result of:
1.Deliberate action.......
2. A level of carelessness approaching criminal....
Any gun show I've ever attended in the past decade in PA has the actions blocked open by "pull-tie". Some displayers even use a secured flagged chamber block in addition ! OTOH, I see participants displaying a contempt for Jeff Cooper's "Three Rules" that's absolutely astounding all a the time !!
Perhaps we're being "too safe"......Everyone is relying upon the "other guy" to guarantee his careless actions won't result in an AD...... >MW
1.Deliberate action.......
2. A level of carelessness approaching criminal....
Any gun show I've ever attended in the past decade in PA has the actions blocked open by "pull-tie". Some displayers even use a secured flagged chamber block in addition ! OTOH, I see participants displaying a contempt for Jeff Cooper's "Three Rules" that's absolutely astounding all a the time !!
Perhaps we're being "too safe"......Everyone is relying upon the "other guy" to guarantee his careless actions won't result in an AD...... >MW
elderberry
Member
I'm not going to speculate on what did or didn't happen as I have yet to hear any first hand evidence from any witness. But I will say this much -- someone intentionally loaded that weapon. They don't load themselves and they do not get loaded accidently. Why that person loaded the weapon is pure speculation. How a loaded weapon ended up on that table is also pure speculation. By the way, I did hear 2nd hand comments that the rifle was a "bring in" and not part of that vendor's display. If that is true then it had to pass through a visual chamber inspection to get in the door and Bloomington normally does a very thorough check. At this point I am assuming it was a careless accident on the part of at least two and possibly three different people. Two -- the vendor and the shooter -- three would be the inspector at the door if it was a bring in.
On the other hand, nothing would surprise me anymore. I never thought I'd live to see the day people put needles and razor blades in Halloween candy or poison in medicine bottles either. It's a crazy world and coincidences usually aren't coincidental.... I do believe it is the vendor's responsibility to clear each and every weapon after it is handled each and every time. From a practical standpoint I have doubts if that is possible. It can get pretty hectic, especially the first morning of the first day.
I also am a big fan of ty wraps.
On the other hand, nothing would surprise me anymore. I never thought I'd live to see the day people put needles and razor blades in Halloween candy or poison in medicine bottles either. It's a crazy world and coincidences usually aren't coincidental.... I do believe it is the vendor's responsibility to clear each and every weapon after it is handled each and every time. From a practical standpoint I have doubts if that is possible. It can get pretty hectic, especially the first morning of the first day.
I also am a big fan of ty wraps.
Not sure about that. It looks to me like the vendor let someone handle a weapon without seeing his FOID card. Secondly, the gun was apparently placed on display loaded by the vendor. I am pretty sure a good lawyer could show that the vendor was at least complicit and partially responsible for the bad outcome here.
kingpin008
Member
I never said that the FFL wasn't at least partially responsible.
Whether they put the rifle on the table loaded or not, whether they received a FOID card before it was handled or not, some idiot put their finger in the trigger guard and squeezed the trigger. That's not the FFL's fault. Were it not for the mysterious stranger's actions, that rifle would never have gone off on it's own, even if it was sitting there loaded.
Whether they put the rifle on the table loaded or not, whether they received a FOID card before it was handled or not, some idiot put their finger in the trigger guard and squeezed the trigger. That's not the FFL's fault. Were it not for the mysterious stranger's actions, that rifle would never have gone off on it's own, even if it was sitting there loaded.
elderberry
Member
How do you know the vendor did not inspect the weapon..?? You are assuming it was already loaded when originally placed on the table. We do not know that for a fact..
How can a vendor prevent someone from just grabbing a rifle without showing their FOID card, which is what was reported in this case....
How can a vendor prevent someone from just grabbing a rifle without showing their FOID card, which is what was reported in this case....
leadcounsel
member
I enjoy gun shows and continue to go if they are convenient.
However, I realize that I'm constantly being flagged by other people carrying guns. Frankly, not a bad place to don your concealed ballistic vest if you have one.
In my experience, all the guns being brought in have their chambers checked and the actions zip tied open. But folks can remove that and frankly load ammo if they were so inclined. Once inside it's adult rules.
They best defense is having people obey all gun rules as much as humanly possible in a crowded room. Check the magwells and actions. Keep the safety on and finger off the trigger. If you are going to test the trigger, check the action and magwell again and point it toward the ceiling or safe direction (cement wall, no people, etc.).
Scary moment, hopefully the folks are fine.
However, I realize that I'm constantly being flagged by other people carrying guns. Frankly, not a bad place to don your concealed ballistic vest if you have one.
In my experience, all the guns being brought in have their chambers checked and the actions zip tied open. But folks can remove that and frankly load ammo if they were so inclined. Once inside it's adult rules.
They best defense is having people obey all gun rules as much as humanly possible in a crowded room. Check the magwells and actions. Keep the safety on and finger off the trigger. If you are going to test the trigger, check the action and magwell again and point it toward the ceiling or safe direction (cement wall, no people, etc.).
Scary moment, hopefully the folks are fine.
medalguy
Member
I attend quite a few shows and MOST of them (not all) require that all guns have the chambers open and bolts & triggers tied so they can't be functioned. This keeps any chance of ammo out of a weapon. I think this is an excellent way of preventing this type accident.
2WheelsGood
Member
- Joined
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ALL guns are loaded. Simple as that. There's a reason why responsible gun owners live by that rule. I can be absolutely sure that a gun isn't loaded by checking the chamber both visually and by feel, and I STILL won't point it at someone. Human error is always a possibility, and the only way to make sure this doesn't happen is to follow the basic rules.
Sure the vendor may have done something stupid, but I can promise you that had I picked up that gun, nobody would have gotten shot. The ONLY way to prevent these things from happening at gun shows is to make every single person who walks through the front door recite the basic rules before they get their hand stamped.
elderberry
Member
Most Illinois gun shows do not lock the guns open or use ty wraps. But what you guys need to understand is we do not have the right to carry a weapon in Illinois. The only weapons at the gun show are the ones the vendor brings in or the cased weapons coming in the door with the public -- guns that someone wants to horse trade. These guns must be inspected at the door by the people running the gun show and they must be empty or they can't pass the inspection. Empty chamber. Empty magazine....
So my point is there are no loaded guns at an Illinois gun show except one worn on the hip of a LEO. Someone had to load that gun or the vendor had to screw up big time. I'm not willing to lay blame on anyone based on speculation...
So my point is there are no loaded guns at an Illinois gun show except one worn on the hip of a LEO. Someone had to load that gun or the vendor had to screw up big time. I'm not willing to lay blame on anyone based on speculation...
7thCavScout
Member
Found a link for the news story....http://www.pantagraph.com/news/article_ccf5806e-41df-11e0-a8c6-001cc4c03286.html
"The round went through a post, through a person and then into another person," said Emery, describing the post as wooden, and 6 to 8 inches thick.
One man had a chest wound, while details of the second person's injuries were not immediately available.
"The round went through a post, through a person and then into another person," said Emery, describing the post as wooden, and 6 to 8 inches thick.
One man had a chest wound, while details of the second person's injuries were not immediately available.
elderberry
Member
Does anyone actually read these threads..?? that's the third time that same link has been posted....
Rembrandt -- I agree to a point. I think it's still important to establish how the round got into the weapon.
I will say this. The same organization puts on gun shows in the southern portion of the state. It is my understanding at a recent show in Effingham there were weapons that somehow got loaded after the tables were set up but before the doors were opened... Note that while the show had not yet officially opened, there were several members of the public in the arena.
Rembrandt -- I agree to a point. I think it's still important to establish how the round got into the weapon.
I will say this. The same organization puts on gun shows in the southern portion of the state. It is my understanding at a recent show in Effingham there were weapons that somehow got loaded after the tables were set up but before the doors were opened... Note that while the show had not yet officially opened, there were several members of the public in the arena.
stonecutter2
Member
Zip ties are required on every gun brought in the door by attendees.
I did not see any zip ties on guns for sale by vendors.
That may change tomorrow (going back again with another friend).
mgregg85
Member
I'd love to blame the brady bunch for this but my money is on some idiot having forgot to unload his mini.
Before I dry fire any gun I always check the chamber, even if I just watched someone check it seconds before they handed it to me. Also I always point the gun in a safe direction if i'm going to dry fire it, at a gun show the only safe direction would seem to be the floor or the ceiling.
Before I dry fire any gun I always check the chamber, even if I just watched someone check it seconds before they handed it to me. Also I always point the gun in a safe direction if i'm going to dry fire it, at a gun show the only safe direction would seem to be the floor or the ceiling.
elderberry
Member
Thanks, Cutter. I wasn't clear on that when I said no ty wraps -- I meant on vendor weapons. So, if this rifle actually was a "bring in" then at some point after it came in the ty wrap was removed and the weapon was loaded.
I hope the paper tomorrow defines where the rifle came from. The tv news did not mention it one way or another...
elderberry
Member
The 10pm news just reported that one victim is out of surgery and in critical but stable condition. a second victim was treated at the hospital and released. a third victim did not require hospital threatment.
If this is not the case, whose responsibility is it? If you have one person working a counter, one firearm should be being handled at a time (IMO). I agree that the FFL was not completely at fault, however as the vendor, HE is responsible for the safety of the firearms he has on display.
As for the customer, I'm quoting a user on another forum : "What happened to a gun is always loaded?"
Before that firearm is handed to the customer a FOID card should be presented by the customer(in the state of IL).
After this the vendor should check/clear the firearm before it is handled.
Maybe I'm just more cautious than some, that can't be a bad thing.
I'm not the only one who feels this way.
See: http://www.hipointfirearmsforums.com/Forum/index.php?topic=39043.0
Google search turned that thread up on another forum and I was happy to see I'm not the only who feels this way.
ljnowell
Member
I can only imagine, that must have been a horrific few moments. I have a 10 year old who is very safe with firearms. Many of my friends have said they would rather shoot with him than many of the people we inquire at the club. There have been several times that I have packed up and left because my son was with me and there were questionable individuals there.
To actually have a shot go in a setting like that with your child though, scary.
I think people have proven time and time again that they can't follow the rules of firearms safety. Therefore, and system that relies on the rules of firearms safety to prevent injury is ultimately going to fail, such as in this case. There are multiple cases like this, and every time a negligent discharge occurs it is because someone once again violated the rules.
At gun shows in particular, people seem to forget the rules. They are excited by all the guns they are seeing, and they just overwhelmed by their enthusiasm and forget about the rules.
I whole heartedly support gun show organizers who forbid loaded gun in their shows, including personal concealed weapons. All guns need to be zip tied to keep the action from being able to close. If someone needs to inspect it, the zip tied should be removed by the vendor and then immediately reapplied. It should ultimately be the vendors responsibility to make sure all displayed guns are unloaded, and that their table has enough adequate supervision to prevent dumb people from doing dumb things.
At gun shows in particular, people seem to forget the rules. They are excited by all the guns they are seeing, and they just overwhelmed by their enthusiasm and forget about the rules.
I whole heartedly support gun show organizers who forbid loaded gun in their shows, including personal concealed weapons. All guns need to be zip tied to keep the action from being able to close. If someone needs to inspect it, the zip tied should be removed by the vendor and then immediately reapplied. It should ultimately be the vendors responsibility to make sure all displayed guns are unloaded, and that their table has enough adequate supervision to prevent dumb people from doing dumb things.
I went to a gunshow in Kingsport Tn. last month and there was a vendor there that had all of his firearms cabled through open actions and if one wanted to further examine the firearm he would unlock it and my friend and I noticed he stayed right there with that individual until he was done and then relocked the firearm. We both commented that this guy was being smart, because the next tabel over you had guys handling all kinds of rifles and the vendor was overwelmed just trying to keep up with all the lookers. A few weeks later my wife and I attended a show in Gray Tn. and when we arrived the police were in the parking lot going through a car, and come to find out someone had discharged a firearm in the parking lot. You know I see alot of people at these shows that just pick up weapons and handle them and you can tell that they know nothing about the firearm they are holding, that in itself is not a good thing. I think most vendors are very safety conscious, but when you get that many people together you are going to have a few wingnuts in the crowd. God forbid, this will happen again!
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