Gunsmithing School/Certification?

[dfariswheel]

To be clear, a "gunsmith certificate" value depends entirely on WHERE it comes from.

As example, a Master's degree in some field from Harvard has a high value.
A "Master's Degree" from an online correspondence school has just about ZERO value.

A gunsmiths certificate from a school like Colorado School of Trades or Trinidad Jr. College is a "gold standard" that's recognized throughout the industry and will usually get you hired.
A "certification" from an internet school will get your job application tossed in the trash while they continue looking for a "real" gunsmith.

Bottom line: If you want to do hobby work on YOUR OWN GUNS, an internet or correspondence school is better than nothing.
If you want to work on other peoples guns, if they trust you (and you're insured out the wazoo) a correspondence certification is again, better than nothing.
Want to go to work for someone else, forget the correspondence degrees, they're literally not worth the paper their printed on.

Again, a internet or correspondence certification in gunsmithing has no real value, and is largely meaningless.

As for getting an FFL, you need no certification. ANYONE can open up a shop and claim to be a gunsmith.
All the government cares about is that you can meet the requirements to get an FFL license. There is no official licensing test for gunsmiths as there is in some other trades.

As an example, I had to pass a test to get licensed as a watchmaker. I didn't have to pass any kind of test to be a gunsmith.
For this reason, its pot luck when using the services of a gunsmith. You might be getting a highly qualified Master of the trade, or some bozo who managed to take a cheap single shot .22 apart and now thinks he's a real gunsmith.
You really have no sure way to know since there is no "standard" certification or license requirement to open up shop.

 

[blaisenguns]

I got my degree from Sonoran Desert Institute. It was a correspondence course. I am happy with it and I feel I learned alot. What I still have problems with are Checkering, and Machining/Lathework. These are both covered in the course, but checkering takes alot of practice and a certain touch (that I cant seem to develop) and I dont have access to a mill or lathe. Both these topics are covered in depth, but in order to take advantage of the lessons you need to have access to machining equipment. However I still recomend this course.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

"To be clear, a "gunsmith certificate" value depends entirely on WHERE it comes from."
True to a point. A certificate doesn't prove you can do the work no matter WHERE it comes from. It only means you have been EXPOSED to training materials(and remembered enough,long enough to pass the test).

 

[dfariswheel]

Also "true to a point".

With the better attendance schools, you don't get a diploma or certificate just for showing up.
You also have to pass tests to prove to them that you've learned the information and skills.
The diploma or certificate is proof that they thought that you learned the course.

From a correspondence or internet school this usually means nothing since these schools have no credibility in the trade. EVERYBODY passes.
A certification or diploma from someone like Colorado Trade or Trinidad MEANS something in the trade because of their reputation for not passing fools or boobs. Everyone does NOT pass the course.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Certainly a law degree from Harvard Law School is better (it would seem)than one from a little known college in southern Bolivia. However, if my southern Bolivian lawyer wins my case handily what do I care were his degree came from? Results ,not pieces of paper on the wall,define any professional. Bottom line If you can do the job and do it well,what difference does it make where you learned how?

 

[Maxw]

Triniad and other schools have the students learn by doing getting the good ones there faster.

 

[Jim K]

Don't worry about not having some skills, like checkering. I freely confess to being possibly the world's worst wood worker. The shops where I worked always had a stock man who did the wood work and checkering, a specialty in itself. One stockmaker had only a vague idea about gun work in general, but his rifle stocks were works of art, and the few pistol grips he did were absolutely beautiful as well as being perfectly fitted to the customer's hand.

IMHO, if a gunsmith can do the normal work, he can always hire someone to do the wood work.

Jimmyray, I agree to a point, and many gunsmiths (including the writer) learned as an apprentice rather than at a school. But part of the problem is that very often "learning by doing" means "doing" to someone else's gun, and there is plenty of room for mistakes and customer ire. I have seen the disastrous work of too many "self taught" gun tinkerers to say that school learning isn't better.

Jim

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Jim, I never said that training wasn't better. In fact I agree with you. How many know where their lawyer got his law degree,or where your doctor or (as in my case) your heart surgeon got their medical degrees? How many professional gunsmiths on this forum have ever been asked by your customers if you were certified and if so by whom? Just saying that being certified doesn't prove ability.

 

[dweymer]

I too have been searching for training. I work full time so can't do the traditional brick and mortor school. I also would do work PT as more hobby than source of income. This thread has been great, as it answered some basic questions:

I want to be a gunsmith: All I need is my FFL, and a shingle with my name on it. No training required. Will I be any good? NO Will I be dangerous? YES

But to actually be able to understand theory I need training, and online/correspondence are my only options. So now I UNDERSTAND THEORY.

To actually gain experience, I either start buying scrap guns to work on; or risk ruining a customers gun(not gonna do that one)

Any trade is more hands on than a business degree. BTW-that business degree may just be to wipe with also in this economy.

I also agree on the certification does not=quality. I have CPA qualifications, and a masters degree in accounting; I have met MANY others that simply scare me with their mis-knowledge, although they have state issued credentials.

 

[blaisenguns]

I think that in any schooling you get out what you put into it. When I did my correspondence course, I tried my damndest to learn the material and practice the skills, and on top of that I augment my knowledge and skills with books, articles and practicing whenever I can.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Very true blaisenguns. I took the Gun Pro correspondence course in the late 1970s and found it laughable. I took the Modern Gun School Advanced correspondence course in 2002 and found it very educational. A lot of hands on projects had to be completed and sent in for scoring. A LOT of the course was dedicated to working with a lathe. I found the resource material worth the cost of the course. I took the course for my own use, not to become a professional gunsmith.

 

[CanyonVR]

There was a saying in my dental school:

"What do you call the person that graduates LAST in his class???"

"Doctor!"

So, even simply graduating from a good school doesn't mean as much as some would like it too.

I am at the stage in my life where it is the information and curriculum that is more important. I am looking for a quality foundation in knowledge.

A "certification" from PSU may not mean crap to someone in the business looking at resumes because they give them away to anyone that pays but if they have a sound course curriculum and materials what's wrong with paying the least for that information? Especially if I NEVER intend to apply for a job in the field?

 

[blaisenguns]

Something that is also worth noting, I aplied for a job as a gunsmith, and they told me when I interveiwed that they either wanted someone who either went to a practical school, or had a corespondence course and several years experience in the feild. Now yes the correspondence course is not enough for employers, but if you have that, and a few years experience, a few good references, and maybe a piece of your work to show, you have as good of a chance as the guy fresh out of a practical school.

 

[Zeke/PA]

Many moons ago I graduated from Trinidad State and parlayed the knowledge into a very successful career as a Toolmaker.
Great school, excellent instructors and a nice little college town to boot.

 

[fedrikwhite]

Student loans that are in good standing.
I.e. no delinquencies - are... A
s long as you pay regularly and on time,
I'd say this is very.

 

[krs]

I'm going to reiterate my recommendation to forget a gunsmithing course and learn modern machining, i.e. CNC machining. It's the future of all metalwork, and gunsmithing IS metalwork.

The day of the small gunsmith shop are gone, but some don't know they're dead yet. The thing is that unfortunately people don't pay to have things fixed anymore. Increasingly it's "Broke? Oh, well, get a new one" and much of the time it's because getting that new one is cheaper than helping some guy in a blue shop coat and a magnifying visor keep his family fed, especially when you don't know going in what the result will be.

The successful young gunsmiths are those who are either creative and skilled with modern machine tools, or those who are less creative with skills in modern machine tools. The former might have a chance starting up on his own and we can all think of examples of these - we call them bulders of custom 1911's. The latter get jobs working for the most successful of the former and if they learn their craft well while working there they might get together with a bud or two and go out on their own - Ask where did the guys who are Nighthawk work before there was a Nighthawk.

The energetic and creative young gunsmith who has gotten able to run the machines to make his custom guns will need to have excellent, not just good, knowledge of business operations. If you feel you must have an AA certificate then get yours in business administration. That one will do more to keep the roof over your head than your hands alone will, even when you know to program a milling center. (See, it's not "Lathes and mills anymore - it's "turning and milling center" now )

With all due respect to the fellows who post saying "I'm a retired...." or I've been for forty years an...." .Well, good on you for building the level of trust in your communities that gave you the amount of business you needed to stay afloat all these years. But your day is gone and it's not going to return. If some young guy starts out like you did he's most likely gonna starve.

Don't get me wrong ..I hate what the world has come to I'm glad I don't have to face what it is becoming. But I know that if I were twenty again and as smart as I still am I wouldn't think long about the idea of setting my path in the world as a small town gunsmith.

 

[krs]

I used to run a large automotive repair facility for a federal agency that serviced 2200 vehicles in six counties in California. At full compliment I had 24 journeyman auto mechanics, two junior auto mechanics, two garagemen, and two bodyfender repairmen and a painter under my pervue.

I once had a guy hired for me by the personnel department because he'd passed the test and had graduated from the Sequioa Technological Institute of Automotive Repair - a two year full time expensive course. The guy was hired and so he got a probationary period of ninety days. Nice guy, everybody liked him and he did what he was told without issues, within the skill package he brought to the job.

The probation was used as much for training as it was for evaluating personnel type factors and we did everything we could to help the guy succeed with us. I was never one to not recognize the simple value of having people on the roll who made it to work each day ready to work.

But this guy just didn't get it. He didn't have good hands and he didn't have a good head for vehicle repair. He couldn't figure things out. Within a couple of weeks it was plain that he just wasn't going to make it. He couldn't get easy things done in anything near a time allotted and the rest of my guys were holding him afloat before the end of a month. I told him at a 30 day point that he should prepare for the possibility of being let go.

At the end of the second month I knew I had to draw the line and I terminated his employment with us. I couldn't afford to keep him and it wasn't our fault.

The guy had made a bad choice to persue the schooling he had. It was not for him, or he was not for it, and his certificate(s) didn't help at all. He'd made a bad career choice.

I ran into him about a year later - he was a pharmacist, or pharmacist helper or something, passing out pills at the counter in the Kaiser Permanente hospital in Santa Clara, CA. and he seemed as happy as a clam there. Gave me the right pills too, and smiled and said Hi.

I know this is long and I hope it makes a meaningful point for someone. Just seemed to me to apply...

 

[Zeke/PA]

krs,
I can't agree with you more.
You have pretty much summed it up in your posts.
The day of the small gun shop is over.
No lathes or mills but all CNC stuff in the Machine Shop except maybe in a highly specialized development enviorment.
Too bad.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Point very well made,krs.

 

[krs]

My wife and I were talking about this today after I had posted the above and when I talked about how people don't get things fixed these days, buying new when something fails them she thought of the guy who used to have a business in sharpening things. She said that where she lived there was a guy who kept a regular schedule driving around in a van equipped to sharpen scissors and knives and whatever else.

It was a fun moment because where I grew up there was a guy who did exactly the same thing. He'd be at the corner near the market (not SUPERmarket) every Tuesday morning and my mother would gather her sewing scissors and kitchen knives and she'd walk me and my brother down to the store to have him make them sharp again. It was a regular thing and I remember that my mother made a big deal if she was late or heaven forbid we missed him. He'd only be there a couple of hours and then head off to some other location making his rounds.

My wife has exactly the same memory only she grew up in a town some fifty miles away from my home town so we figure that it couldn't have been the same guy. I remember that the guy could also make a new key and my wife THINKS that their guy did that but she's not positive sure of it. We do agree that neither of them were old guys, at least not older than our fathers were.

Think of that....in the early 1950's a guy could make a living if he was good at sharpening tools and household cutting implements. Came out of the service and got enough to get an old van and some grinders and sharpeners for whatever came along needing his work. Every town needed a guy like him. I remember that he was nice and always had some joke to tell us kids but my wife doesn't remember anything like that.

I hope it lasted long enough for him to retire.

 

[Jim K]

I don't think the comparison to a doctor holds. Doctors not only have degrees and various types of certification, they have to be certified by the state. So do lawyers and beauticians.

But, possibly because it could be used as a gun control tool, the firearms community has always opposed state certification of gunsmiths. (The FFL means nothing except that the applicant submitted the application and had the money; it says nothing about competence or even honesty.)

While most gunsmiths are reasonably good, and school certification is OK, there really is no way a customer can check on a local gunsmith except by word of mouth. With most jobs, it won't matter much, but if I were to trust, say, a $150,000 shotgun to a gunsmith, I sure would like to know that he is not the kind who disassembles guns with a dull screwdriver and a big hammer.

Jim

 

[4v50 Gary]

What Jim Keenan says. Some "smiths" specialize in their work. You've got restorers. You got fix-it guys who make their money as factory authorized warranty repair stations. You've got custom gunsmiths. You've got pistolsmiths. As a consumer, you have to go by word of mouth including the wait time for something to return.

 

[Old Guard Dog]

I have taken the Modern Gunsmithing School's correspondence course. If you want a course to give you a better general knowledge, I think it is the best for the money. I paid $1350.00 for both the basic and advanced course. You get tools (some junk). It covers many specific guns (disassembly, troubleshooting, repairs), operations like stock refinishing, blueing, etc, and it covers the business end including getting a FFL. An NRA disassembly guide for pistols and long guns is supplied, along with a lot of other literature. You have projects that you must do and send back for grading. If you can learn from printed material, it is a great value. The printing is poor. They have continuing support with the instructors after corse completion.

I shopped around before starting it, and the one I liked the best was AGI. The quality of the videos was good, but the price (about $10k) was too high for my budget.

I agree going to a good school is the best, but I couldn't afford it. You will get a certificate of completion from correspondence schools, which makes you a "Certified" gunsmith, but it won't carry much weight. You will learn a lot, though. I've been working on guns all my life, and am doing this to prepare for retirement in a few years. You need to decide what direction you want to go. If you are young, and want to become a gunsmith as a career, find a way to go to a good school.

That's my opinion on correspondence schools. I know they are frowned upon by oldtime gunsmiths, but they have their place.