Guy with Gun at Tampa Town Hall Meeting

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So, what right of Vest-Guy did OP violate?


None, right?

Oh, yes, the "right to be private in a public place", is that what you'll say?
 
By sidling up and saying "I've marked you" to anyone in any manner is unnecessary. At best you invade the privacy of an individual with your voyeurism, at worst, you interfere with law enforcement.
If the guy had wanted privacy he could have stayed home or concealed better. If it was a cop he should have concealed better, openly carried, and/or displayed his badge.This whole argument is the equivalent of a woman walking around in public with a breast hanging out of her top, and then getting offended that someone sawed and commented, and then having a bunch of other women get in on the act.

If you're going to carry concealed, conceal.

There seem to be a lot of gun owners that seem to think that they can interact with the universe in the manner they choose w/o repercussion. No one should question/speak/make eye contact with them without explicit permission. Well sorry, behavior has consequences. Poorly concealing a weapon, at a political event during a time when emotions are running high, will draw recognition and curiosity from a certain portion of the population, and cause some subset of that group (with a vested interest in parsing threats and/or not having someone do something stupid with a gun) to take action to ascertain the precise nature of threat that person represents. People need to be realistic.
 
The black guy on the left. Note the police uniform. The grey haired guy with the can of DR Pepper. Plain clothes duty belt. The guy with the vest. Nice bulge, is that a gun or are you just happy to see me? And they guy over Vest's left shoulder(our right). That one is harder to say for sure but him and the others have the same stare and the same grim expression.
 
Ye gods - it's not up to us to police each other's carry. We are not the CCW Fashion Pol-Leece, nor should we pretend to be.

Y'all really need to learn that 'mind your own business' is a two way street. As a community, we seem to want less intrusion and less hassle for exercising our rights, and yet we feel the need to hassle each other over something as silly as a bulged vest.

I will never understand that.

Never.
 
It's called situational awareness. I would not have said anything, but I darn sure do keep track of who is around me and what if any threat they might pose.
 
And now that you made a deal out of it there will be an announcement made and CC will be prohibited. Well done.
 
travellingJeff said:
So, what right of Vest-Guy did OP violate?


None, right?

Oh, yes, the "right to be private in a public place", is that what you'll say?

It's simply bad manners. It's a shame you can't see that.


I wear a wedding ring. I don't try to hide the fact that I'm married. Approaching me to ask what sex with my wife is like is bad manners, too.


Approaching me to ask if I have a gun under my vest is bad manners. I have no idea who you are, or why you want to know if I have a gun.


I think far too many gun owners take too much pleasure in trying to tell who else in the room has a gun on them. Why do some people who carry a gun feel like once they've "made someone" (and Lord do I groan when I hear that bandied about), that from that simple connection they are somehow brothers?

You go ask the wrong person that question and they may just show it to you.


Because you and I carry a gun does not make us of the same mind. The assumption that it does is tactically dangerous. The presumption that since you've discovered "my secret" that I'd welcome you coming up to me to strike up a conversation about my gun is naive.


Stop obsessing about guns and find something else to strike up a conversation about. I'd imagine, say . . . "So what brought you out to the rally today?" might be a pretty good start.
 
It's called situational awareness. I would not have said anything, but I darn sure do keep track of who is around me and what if any threat they might pose.
You're obviously missing the point by letting your situational awareness interfere with the pathological apathy that gun owners are supposed to cultivate.
 
Rude questions include:
1. Are you a homosexual?
2. Who did you vote for?
3. Can you lend me 5 dollars? Give me your address and I'll mail it back to you.
4. How much money do you make a year?
5. What's your wife's favorite sexual position?
6. Are you carrying a gun?

You can ask rude questions all you like. Just don't be surprised if you get a rude answer. To the OP I pose this question. If you were in a bank, and a stranger walked up to you and asked you if you were carrying, would you feel uncomfortable?
 
Good grief.

So, what right of Vest-Guy did OP violate? None, right?

Yes, you are right in this observation, but still missing the point entirely.

equivalent of a woman walking around in public with a breast hanging out of her top

The lady with the boob argument is just another fallacy thrown up to obfuscate the issue, but to much of a plumb to ignore:

If public display of secondary female sexual characteristics is illegal, report or intervene, your choice. If it is legal and appropriate, keep yer cake hole shut.

Based on the posts here, I'm sure there will be hushed whispers about the legal but shameless hussy (as there has been about sloppy concealed carry). There is no place in a polite society to call attention to it.

If you feel the need to point out every nose booger, untied shoelace, and plumber's crack, then you are beyond help. However, if a socially developing individual reads this thread, perhaps he or she will learn they don't need to become society's caretakers.
 
junyo said:
This whole argument is the equivalent of a woman walking around in public with a breast hanging out of her top, and then getting offended that someone sawed and commented, and then having a bunch of other women get in on the act.

No, its a little more like a mother trying to discreetly breast feed her baby. She tried to cover up, but maybe isn't doing the best job of it. Rather than do what most of us do - look past a completely natural act - someone's decided to make it their business to go give her grief over it.


Unless a stranger has a legitimate reason for coming up to me to ask if I'm carrying a gun, I'm not going to like being asked that question. Especially if it has not become exposed, but merely a guess based upon how I'm dressed.


Among other things, it suggests to me that the person asking that question is obsessed with guns, and obsessed enough to walk up to me, a complete stranger, to have a conversation about it.
 
I still don't see how anyone was "given grief" over their actions.

And some people are blowing this issue out of proportion to prove their point; of course you can't ask rude, offensive questions to someone. While those words are both subjective, I think we could come to some concensus.

Asking inappropriate questions about your significant other? Offensive, rude and uncalled for.



Here's an interesting scenario; Let's say that a guy is asking to borrow ten bucks for gasoline (or bus fare, or whatever). Do you get as offended as if he asks "Hey buddy, whats that bulge, a gun?" I'd be more offended that someone tried to hit me up for a loan than someone asking if I was carrying. Also, and I realize that this isn't the exact case but let's say you were in Texas and printing badly, wouldn't you WANT a gunowner to come up and give ya the heads up that you were printing, or that your shirt had ridden up over the grip of your sidearm?

All I'm really saying is that, while certain questions are inappropriate and a lot of those questions depend on setting and intimacy with the individual asking and being asked, I don't feel that the OP's question, although a bit off-the-cuff, was rude, offensive or deserved to be treated with a hostile answer. If I was in the shoes of the question-asker, I would be prepared to be responded to with a "mind your own damn business", which I'd politely accept and move away.

Either way, good job going to the town hall meeting, good job posting about it and I hope no one's scolding has scared ya away ;-)

regards,
tJ
 
If public display of secondary female sexual characteristics is illegal, report or intervene, your choice. If it is legal and appropriate, keep yer cake hole shut.


"If asking a question regarding a lawful act is illegal, inform the police or act against them. If it's legal and appropriate, answer in the manner you feel best suits the situation."

No hard feelings, btw, just an internet discussion :)
 
No, its a little more like a mother trying to discreetly breast feed her baby. She tried to cover up, but maybe isn't doing the best job of it. Rather than do what most of us do - look past a completely natural act - someone's decided to make it their business to go give her grief over it.
Since when did asking a question constitute "grief"? Torturing this analogy further, assuming your version of the analogy is valid, if a more experianced mother were to go up to this lady and inquire, in route to perhaps suggesting a better method of covering up while nursing, or pointing out that there's a less exposed area nearby, is the mom with her boob out justified in getting angry?

It's a rationalization of apathy and indifference to say that its polite or good manners to see someone doing something wrong and just ignore it. Especially when the "something" represents a risk to the person and the people around them. Manners dictate offering assistance and withdrawing if/when that assistance is declined. The OP saw someone that was doing something badly, had specific knowledge that could maybe help that individual, inquired, and when rebuffed, did not impose. Not seeing the problem.
 
It's a rationalization of apathy and indifference to say that its polite or good manners to see someone doing something wrong and just ignore it

So, you believe that carrying concealed and/or open is wrong?

The OP saw someone that was doing something badly, had specific knowledge that could maybe help that individual

Manytimes I carry - a large frame DA auto - in my pants pocket. The Hogues hang out. I don't worry, I'm a ccw licensee and OC is legal here.
I do this because I don't want to leave it in a truck that has no door locks.

If someone comes up to me and mentions the gat, I'll entertain them while pivoting strong side away and placing my hand on the butt. Usually it's some assinine small talk comment like "Is that a gun?"
My canned response is "Let's hope you never find out."

I grow tired of having to answer to every Joe about my pistol(s).
I carry. It's my right, I'm fully legal.
The only person I'm obliged to answer to carries a badge.
If you wanna make small talk, let's talk about your vasectomy, or your wife's plantar warts.

Anti-social? I've never been diagnosed, but I can carry on a pleasant conversation with plenty of eye contact whether or not either of us are packing, open or closed.

Talking up someone because of their "stuff" is rude and pushy. Talking up someone because of something they are trying to hide is beyond the pale.
 
junyo said:
It's a rationalization of apathy and indifference to say that its polite or good manners to see someone doing something wrong and just ignore it. Especially when the "something" represents a risk to the person and the people around them. Manners dictate offering assistance and withdrawing if/when that assistance is declined. The OP saw someone that was doing something badly, had specific knowledge that could maybe help that individual, inquired, and when rebuffed, did not impose. Not seeing the problem.


Represents a risk to the person and those around them? How in the hell did you come to that?

The man had a vest on. It covered the gun. About the only people who would have any clue that bulge might have been a gun would be those who go around playing Where's Waldo and spot the gunnie. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion this is a risk to anyone.


And Yoda did not back down when rebuffed. He approached the shift supervisor, and without even knowing if this person actually was one of his officers, went onto make suggestions about how he should have his man find better carry attire.


It's condescending and rude behavior. Sorry you don't see it that way.
 
So, you believe that carrying concealed and/or open is wrong?
No, I believe concealing badly is wrong. It draws attention to the fact that you're trying to hide a gun, which makes attentive people curious, which is the worst of both worlds. If you're going to open carry, open carry. If you're going to concealed carry, conceal.
I do this because I don't want to leave it in a truck that has no door locks.
So it's in your power to eliminate the reason why people walk up to you, you choose not to, and begrudge those people their reactions? Rather than taking any number of simple expedients that could eliminate the problem, everyone else should adjust their manner to accommodate your comfort. Those bastards.
Represents a risk to the person and those around them? How in the hell did you come to that?
As a wise man once said "Because you and I carry a gun does not make us of the same mind. The assumption that it does is tactically dangerous." There's a small number of people I truly trust with a gun around me. All others represent some level of threat, either through intent or negligence, until they prove otherwise. A man with a gun who doesn't want to carry openly, yet doesn't know/care enough to conceal it (in a more than perfunctory manner) stands out as a threat. Especially considering the entire point of concealing is to lower your perceived threat profile.

About the only people who would have any clue that bulge might have been a gun would be those who go around playing Where's Waldo and spot the gunnie.
There are only a million threads on this forum about situational awareness, about the need to be aware of threats around you and not take anything for granted. But we all know that no one has ever been violent at a political event. Ever. So an apparently hastily concealed weapon at one is no real biggie. By all means we should all assume that anyone who's trying to conceal something is doing so with the best of intentions and not question it. And don't even think about mentioning any thoughts to another living soul.

Most of your right to privacy ends when you go into a public place. I can take your picture and put it in the paper. I can walk up and speak to you. If you're doing something that draws attention, it's reasonable to expect those things to happen. If you don't want to be bothered, it's entirely within your power to prevent that from happening, by not doing anything that draws attention, rather than insisting that everyone else in the universe play a game of "see no evil". That's the rudeness, the imposition. Look at the picture. Stevie Wonder could tell the guy was carrying. That's doing a half assed job, and then laying the responsibility off on other folks to pretend an adequate job was done. Sorry you don't understand that.
 
I believe concealing badly is wrong.
What about striped pants with a polka-dot shirt, or a fat guy with a short necktie? Is it you job to point out that?

So it's in your power to eliminate the reason why people walk up to you, you choose not to, and begrudge those people their reactions?
The open bearing of arms is not something that needs to be eliminated. I have a problem with the infantile reactions of people who are so moved by the presence of a gun "Look! Look! A Gun! Talk to me about it!"
Yes, it's a gun, are those buttons on your shirt? Talk to me about it!

..could eliminate the problem
Again, why do feel carry is a "problem"?
I'm starting to notice a trend in your posts.
Do you feel guilt or shame about carry?
Do YOU carry?

There's a small number of people I truly trust with a gun around me.
That's a blatantly elitist statement, and flies in the face of the concept of "inalienable rights".
Keep it up, you have an audience.

Especially considering the entire point of concealing is to lower your perceived threat profile.
Nope, fail.
Some people put a gun in their pocket because they need two hands for pumping gas, buying groceries, or filling out bank papers.
Want to lower your threat profile? Don't approach strangers with guns!!!

blah blah blah there are only a million threads on this forum blah bah blah we all know that no one has ever been violent at a political event. blah blah blah
You didn't learn anything from those threads, either.
Learn to watch the threat from a defensible position, not making yourself a target.

Most of your right to privacy ends when you go into a public place
As does your right not to have to see guns or sloppy dressers.

If you're doing something that draws attention, it's reasonable to expect those things to happen.
Since when is exercising my 2nd amendment right "drawing attention to myself?"
Oh, that's right, when you disapprove of how it looks.

...by not doing anything that draws attention, rather than insisting that everyone else in the universe play a game of "see no evil".
So, I need to dress to fool every Jr. G-man with x-ray vision.
And since when is carrying "Evil"?
This is too easy.

That's doing a half assed job, and then laying the responsibility off on other folks to pretend an adequate job was done.

There is no responsibility being lain upon anyone. He's got a sloppy concealment, a booger in his nose, an untied shoe, his buttcrack showing, ad infinitum. You don't have to pretend it's not there, you DO have to accept it and move along, because chances are HE DOESN'T CARE if you don't approve.

Sorry you don't understand that.

I understand fully.
You have assigned yourself the role of arbiter of proper carry.
You are the Fashion Police.

Your insistence on pointing out the splinter in another's eye has blinded you to the plank in your own. The question at hand has always been "Why do you feel the need to point out to someone what they already know?"

I put forth that it is an adolescent need to show that you know something about someone that they don't know you know.

A more probable, based on a critical reading of your post, more nefarious motivation is a desire to out anyone other than you who may be carrying, because, as you have plainly said, you don't trust the hoi palloi to have guns. If they can't hide them, how the heck can they be trusted with them.
 
If you're going to open carry, open carry. If you're going to concealed carry, conceal.
I hate to jump in this debate so late in the game(or at all for any matter), but that statement almost made me feel sick to my stomach for some reason. I think it's because there seems to be this secret underground club that you join once you conceal a weapon on your person. I've never done it, as I live in Illinois and it's a very big no-no here. I also think that I would rather open carry if anything, but that is neither here, nor there.

There was a thread no too long ago about someone asking how bad he was printing, and it turned in to a huge debate that was somewhat similar to this. This also goes back to my secret underground club theory. Take the average Joe, who does not immerse themselves into the whole concealed carry lifestyle. If they see someone walking down the street, or at a coffee shop, political rally, etc. with a bulge on their hip, I really doubt that they would think much of it. I know for a fact that I wouldn't. I don't even think I would take note of it. If it was obtrusive enough to jump out at me, I would probably think it was a cell phone holster or something. Even as a gun owner and shooting enthusiast I wouldn't immediately assume it was a firearm. Does a bulge on the hip under a vest even mean that he is no longer lawfully concealed carrying?

From what I've read on these and other forums, is there seems to be this almost obsession with concealed carry once you partake in it. All of the sudden bad guys lurk around every corner. You have to be on your guard whenever you're out in the open. You take in every possible detail you can. To me this sounds almost like paranoia. And before anyone jumps to any conclusions, keep in mind that I've never carried in any way, nor am I knocking it. But has anyone stopped to think that this guy could be wearing an insulin pump? A catheter? Maybe that's why he became offended. Why does it have to be a gun? It could be anything for all we know.

I also don't really understand why everyone is at arms about how rude it is to ask this guy if he has a gun. It's not something I think I would ever do, but it's not like he slapped this guy's mother, or insulted his wife.
 
From what I've read on these and other forums, is there seems to be this almost obsession with concealed carry once you partake in it. All of the sudden bad guys lurk around every corner. You have to be on your guard whenever you're out in the open. You take in every possible detail you can. To me this sounds almost like paranoia. And before anyone jumps to any conclusions, keep in mind that I've never carried in any way, nor am I knocking it. But has anyone stopped to think that this guy could be wearing an insulin pump? A catheter? Maybe that's why he became offended. Why does it have to be a gun? It could be anything for all we know.

In that, you are correct. Some people use CC as some sort of testosterone laden wannabe cop fantasy, where they get to shoot the bad guys, sort of like a cops and robbers fantasy.
 
I suggest we develop a secret sort of "yeah, I'm packing" handshake/nod or signal so discrete that no one outside of our uber-exclusive secret inner circle will notice it or know its true meaning.

second, we can further refine this ultra-secretive signal with other ever more complex signals so that we can communicate to each other what weapon we are carrying, how many rounds we have, what the weight of our bullets are, and our average grouping at 10 yards.

we could even communicate through our elaborate 'signals' when someone enters the room who is not a member of our clandestine group who we suspect may be carrying concealed. then we can ridicule them and make fun of them for not being as awesome as us.

this way, we'll be like CCW ninjas that protect the world from bad guys and uphold all that is good and right.
 
I'm going to go ahead and quietly close this one before this devolves into any more of a quarrel. I think that the points that can be made have been made, and from this point forward it's just going to be All Bad <tm>.

Just a hunch, but I'm running with it. ;)
 
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