H/D Shotguns?

[ZVP]

Like everything internet, HD Shotguns seem to have cycled out and HD handguns are "in" Theres a proliferation of new semi-autos in .45 that is the rage!
The lowly Shotgun is back in second place! For quite a while there were some fantastic pix and threads about late 40's and 50's pumpguns and quite a bit of how to set-up todays Shotgun.
My two Hotguns are simple, a SxS 20 ga and a plain 12 ga Wards/Mossberg pump. No frills or bayonets and no sharp accessory rails to shred skin off your hands! I figgure the simpler it is, the less chance of something getting in the way because it fell 1/2 way off!
Ammo has been sorta tricky for the 20ga, for a while noone carried it anywhere! All I could find was one small box of slugs,so I opted for some heavy Phesant loads till Buckshot could be found. Things are loosening-up and I have managed to find 5 ,5 shot boxes of#3 Buck for the double.
The 12ga has always been pretty easy to locate. Even WalMart carrys Military Buckshot!
For both Shotguns I pratice with light target loads.This way i get a lot of shooting in and am getting more familliar with both guns. I have shot the 12ga with Buckshot but the 20's are too precious to shoot! To approximate 12 Ga Buckshot recoil, I shoot heavy Dove loads that really kick! Gets you used to it quicklly!
My Club insists that you shoot at a patterning board for pratice. The problem is you need to have an empty range to really shoot. It takes a little planning and coordination with other shooters.
I wish we could pratice on the CAS steel targets but we might get them"dirty"...
Anyhow, it'd be nice to read about others HD shotguns and how they train (ammo etc.)
Thanks
ZVP

 

[Skribs]

.45 pistol is the frontrunner for HD? From what I've seen lately, shotguns are in 2nd place, but it's not to pistols or even anything chambered in a pistol caliber. They seem to be second to AR-15s and similar semi-automatic box-fed rifles. That said, my primary HD guns are shotguns.

I practice at an indoor pistol range that will let me use buckshot or slugs from a shotgun, but not rifle rounds (hence why I don't have rifles). It is a lot easier to get practice in when you can send the target out and back (thus, no waiting on a cold range to get your targets and set up the next batch), and they have no silly rules like "no rapid fire".

I practice using my HD loads, which means any grade of buckshot. I also shoot slugs and magnums for fun. My two are a Benelli Supernova tactical with Aimpoint and a flashlight attached to the left of the chamber (it's easy for me to hit it that way) and a Mossberg 930 SPX in mostly stock configuration (well, stock for the model I got). I started with the pump, but I think I like the semi-auto better. More user friendly.

 

[highpower]

Sometimes it is just easier to grab a handgun than a shotgun. It's much handier prowling through the house with something smaller than the length of even the shortest of HD shotguns.

However, there is the worry of over penetration into another room that must be taken into consideration when using nearly any handgun that has any real stopping power. That concern is multiplied when you use a rifle like a AR15. In fact a rifle is probably the worst choice that you could make in a primary HD weapon.

I have used the same formula for years in my choice of weapon for home protection, I use a 12ga pump with #7-8 shot, one ounce field loads. Likewise I have used the same shotgun for many years also. No lights, lasers or other BS, just a nice simple pump that I know will get the job done.

 

[19-3Ben]

However, there is the worry of over penetration into another room that must be taken into consideration when using nearly any handgun that has any real stopping power. That concern is multiplied when you use a rifle like a AR15.

Not true. a very lightweight, very fast bullet like a .223/5.56 actually will disrupt and fragment sooner in a wall and be less likely to over penetrate.

That said, my primary HD gun is my Mossberg 500ATP. It replaced a Remington 870, because I've found that for whatever reason I can shoot the Mossberg much more quickly while staying on target better.

 

[DM~]

DM

 

[oneounceload]

That concern is multiplied when you use a rifle like a AR15. In fact a rifle is probably the worst choice that you could make in a primary HD weapon.

Nope, your AR is about the safest as far as penetration goes as evidenced in the chart above

 

[LeonCarr]

Birdshot is for birds.

Birdshot will not penetrate deep enough to reliably stop an adversary. Buckshot is better for Joe Dirtbag 6'6" 350 loaded up on crystal meth who is breaking into your house at 0200.

It brings a tear to my eye to see a Winchester 1897 Trench Gun loaded with birdshot.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[highpower]

I didn't realize that the 5.56 round was that anemic at passing through drywall. I guess you learn something every day. As for the performance of birdshot, I have done a test to see the effects of various sizes of shot on common drywalled walls. As the chart posted above shows, 00 buck will go through a wall and still have enough energy left to injure someone in the other room. Birdshot on the other hand pretty much looses it's energy in the wall and, in my experiments, seldom passed all the way through.

At room distances (0 - 20 feet), there was negligable spread to the shot pattern. In essence, it was a one ounce mass traveling at 1100 fps. When I shot at 1 gallon water jugs at that distance they exploded. Would that stop a bad guy? Fortunately, I haven't had to find out. But I would like to think that anyone hit by one ounce of lead would be out of action.

As for the sacrilege of shooting lighter loads in my '97, it was made in 1918 and is approaching 100 years old. It is worth too much to me to shoot it loose with heavy loads.

 

[oneounceload]

In essence, it was a one ounce mass traveling at 1100 fps

HOWEVER, there is a HUGE difference between hitting someone wit 1 oz of #8 (437 pellets) and a 1oz slug. The pellets each transmit their energy independently and not collectively like a slug

Hitting a nail with a 24oz claw hammer will give you a different result than hitting that same nail 24 times with a 1oz brad tack hammer

 

[vba]

I have compromised with respect to the shotgun and use #4 buckshot. I feel it will give enough stopping power with the least penetration thru walls.

 

[USAF_Vet]

If bird shot is stopped by a slab of drywall, do you really think it'll penetrate through clothing, skin, muscle and bone to reach vital organs with enough velocity and kinetic energy to disrupt the central nervous system or vital organ function? Heck, I've skinned squirrels hit with light shot where the pellets hadn't penetrated through to the vitals. I think the poor critter died of shock, not CNS or vital organ trauma. He still stewed up just fine

I've also seem firsthand the effectiveness of 5.56 on humans. As often as not, there is no exit wound, even with military FMJ bullets.

My go to HD weapon is a 9mm pistol loaded with 124 gr JHP. But as far as long guns go, I'd be just as quick to grab my 12 gauge pump or semi as I would my AR. Over penetration isn't a big concern for me and my current living situation.

 

[highpower]

Hitting a nail with a 24oz claw hammer will give you a different result than hitting that same nail 24 times with a 1oz brad tack hammer

I think the analogy would be better put as hitting the nail with 24 one ounce hammers simultaineously. That, I believe, would signifcantly increase the power delivered.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I think the analogy would be better put as hitting the nail with 24 one ounce hammers simultaineously. That, I believe, would signifcantly increase the power delivered.

You might believe that, but you would still be wrong. Would you rather get smacked in the face with a one pound rock, or one pound of loose sand? Eventually, the sand is going to hurt, if you get hit with enough of it, but the rock is going to hurt right away.

When it comes to defense, I don't want the bad guy to hurt eventually and get annoyed enough to go away, I want him hurt now, and unable to go away under his own power.

I read a story, and it may be urban legend, so take it for what you will, about a guy who attacked his estranged wife, who shot him with bird shot from a .410 shotgun. After being shot, this man beat her to death, and sat on the front step for the police and paramedics. He was arrested, and the medics cleaned up his shallow flesh wound (directly over his heart, so it was a well placed shot) and carted him off to jail. Had she used something a bit more stout out of her little .410, the situation may have had a drastically different outcome.

 

[tnxdshooter]

You might believe that, but you would still be wrong. Would you rather get smacked in the face with a one pound rock, or one pound of loose sand? Eventually, the sand is going to hurt, if you get hit with enough of it, but the rock is going to hurt right away.

When it comes to defense, I don't want the bad guy to hurt eventually and get annoyed enough to go away, I want him hurt now, and unable to go away under his own power.

I read a story, and it may be urban legend, so take it for what you will, about a guy who attacked his estranged wife, who shot him with bird shot from a .410 shotgun. After being shot, this man beat her to death, and sat on the front step for the police and paramedics. He was arrested, and the medics cleaned up his shallow flesh wound (directly over his heart, so it was a well placed shot) and carted him off to jail. Had she used something a bit more stout out of her little .410, the situation may have had a drastically different outcome.

Exactly I want him out of the fight as quickly as possible.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I've got a 590 that is my home defense shotgun. I try to take a formal class with it every couple of years. Where I live there is an indoor range where I can shoot buck slugs or birdshot out to 25 yards so I go there with it from time to time.

I belong to a trap league so I shoot a Mossberg 500 in the league to practice the weapons manipulation and ammo feeding that is identical to the 590. I also shoot in a manner including running the pump like it is self defense. I also sight it like a rifle in trap as I do my 590 for self defense. Probably costs me a few clays per round but I don't mind and still have lots of fun. By doing the league shooting like this I get a couple of thousand rounds of practice a year that is in a manner similar to my home defense shotgun.

 

[Skribs]

Note that the image presented is for a 5.56mm with common self defense round. A harder bullet designed not to fragment will probably go a lot further than buckshot or pistol rounds. It's all in bullet design, and the faster the bullet is going, the more control you have with it over what it does.

With that said, the AR-15 is still dangerous through walls, just slightly less dangerous than the other options. But that's like saying "it's less dangerous than a .22", which we all know is still very potentially lethal.

When looking at a defense weapon, I pay less attention to what it will do through walls and more what it will do through an attacker. While there are pros and cons to everything, and I think that the least popular options are still very popular, I think rifle > shotgun > pistol, both in terms of popularity and in what I would recommend for HD.

That said, my primary HD weapon is a shotgun, and my first-accessed HD weapon is a pistol. I don't even own any rifles. Like I said, there's pros and cons for each, and what is "best" isn't always the best option for your situation.

 

[Vonderek]

Until I had to actually clear a dark house with a Winchester 1300 I thought a 12GA was the penultimate in H/D. It still is if your plan is to defend a room. For moving about I will take any handgun in one hand and a Surefire flashlight in the other over a shotgun.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

I thought a 12GA was the penultimate in H/D.

What did you think was the ultimate?

 

[highpower]

You might believe that, but you would still be wrong. Would you rather get smacked in the face with a one pound rock, or one pound of loose sand? Eventually, the sand is going to hurt, if you get hit with enough of it, but the rock is going to hurt right away.

Before you make any more analogies, I suggest that you watch this video. the fellow that made it shot an 1 1/8 ounce of bird shot through a denim shirt into a ribcage and then into a large chunk of muscle. the shot penetrated 4 inches into the muscle which is much denser than the interior of a human body.

Really, watch it. The salient part starts at about 8:50 into the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU

 

[19-3Ben]

What did you think was the ultimate?

You know what he meant. What he typed was irregardless. :banghead:

 

[Skribs]

Highpower, every penetration test I've seen has shown that birdshot doesn't have the penetration you want for a reliable stopper.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Before you make any more analogies, I suggest that you watch this video. the fellow that made it shot an 1 1/8 ounce of bird shot through a denim shirt into a ribcage and then into a large chunk of muscle. the shot penetrated 4 inches into the muscle which is much denser than the interior of a human body.

Really, watch it. The salient part starts at about 8:50 into the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU

Its your life, use whatever you want to defend it. But before trusting a YouTube video as your ultimate reference, maybe ask the professionals what they use. Ask the local PD what they use in their shotguns, ask the sheriffs dept. and the state police, too. I can tell you that without a doubt, if you ask them if they use bird shot, the answer will be a definitive 'NO' without exception. I can also tell you definitively that the US armed forces don't touch bird shot for combat use, or any other use.

Bird shot can be lethal, I don't doubt it, but the circumstances of its lethality are much more narrow when compared to 00 buck, slugs, or other loads recognized universally as adequate for defense.

So like I said, you can use whatever you want to defend your life and those you care about.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Until I had to actually clear a dark house with a Winchester 1300 I thought a 12GA was the penultimate in H/D. It still is if your plan is to defend a room. For moving about I will take any handgun in one hand and a Surefire flashlight in the other over a shotgun.

Not that long ago when just my wife and I in the house we heard a beep that woke us up. It didn't sound like the alarm. I stayed there for a while with the shotgun. We both thought it was likely a low battery on the carbon monoxide detector. Certainly something not worthy to call the cops. When I went to clear the house, I gave the wife the shotgun while she stayed put. I took the pistol and flashlight for reasons you mentioned.

 

[19-3Ben]

Not that long ago when just my wife and I in the house we heard a beep that woke us up. It didn't sound like the alarm. I stayed there for a while with the shotgun. We both thought it was likely a low battery on the carbon monoxide detector. Certainly something not worthy to call the cops. When I went to clear the house, I gave the wife the shotgun while she stayed put. I took the pistol and flashlight for reasons you mentioned.

The one time I ever had to clear my house, I did it with a handgun (M&P9) and actually, at the time, i was thinking "I really wish I had my shotgun with me."
I guess the grass is greener on the other side.

 

[Skribs]

If they would remove the "ban" on SBR and SBS, then handguns would probably fall in popularity for HD. Just sayin'