H&R Defender 38 inquiry

[BigBlue 94]

A coworker has a pristine H&R Defender 38 (38S&W) that she may be interested in selling for a gun she can get ammo for. Her mother brought home a bag of three of em many many moons ago. SN 12989

It looks 99% factory new, with no turn line and no case head wear on the blast shield. Just a few 'pock marks' here and there. Bluing is nice and deep, though not as polished as a good Smith or Colt would be. Lockup and trigger function are perfect. Its basically brand new. The only ammo she has is 38 short colt, which is loose in the chamber and the bullet fits in the end of the barrel. So accuracy with those is probably non existant.

Im thinking its worth about 300 bucks, but thats just judging off a few online sales. Anyone have any insight?

 

[Steel Hayes]

It’s a nice solid revolver for being a top break.
The .38S&W is a nice round to shoot.
$300 IMO is about right for a Defender, you don’t find them that often.

 

[BigBlue 94]

Thank you! Its a 4" barrel model. Seems like a robust gun, especially for the wimpy 38 sw

 

[Steel Hayes]

With a 4” barrel, $300 is definitely worth the price. You don’t see those very often.

 

[BigBlue 94]

With a 4” barrel, $300 is definitely worth the price. You don’t see those very often.

300 isnt too cheap is it? I would like for it to be a fair deal for both parties. She has just enough money to be comfortable, but not much else.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Not sure why a 4" .38 S&W Defender is a poor choice. Just focus on getting a box of ammo for it. .38 S&W is exactly the type of thing that could be languishing on an LGS ammo shelf.

 

[BigBlue 94]

Not sure why a 4" .38 S&W Defender is a poor choice. Just focus on getting a box of ammo for it. .38 S&W is exactly the type of thing that could be languishing on an LGS ammo shelf.

Very true. She just isnt real comfortable with it i guess. She is getting close to 80, but still works every day. She isnt feeble. A 410 shotgun would be her choice. Come to think of it, ive got a 410 870 she may be interested in...

 

[Monac]

I think the kind of H&R Defender that Big Blue 94 is talking about is the kind shown in this thread: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/h-r-defender-38-s-w.623404/

Because some of these saw use in World War 2 as home front security guard guns, and equipment for Liberty Ships, there is a bit more collector interest in them than there would be otherwise. I don't know anything about current values, though.

Like 455_Hunter says, there is nothing wrong with them as a defensive gun, although usually the DA trigger pulls on these old H&R's are heavy. Also, the ammunition available for it is pretty much that same now as it was in 1870's, when 38 S&W was introduced. There are better bullet designs available nowadays, at least in more popular ammo like 38 Special.

 

[BigBlue 94]

I think the kind of H&R Defender that Big Blue 94 is talking about is the kind shown in this thread: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/h-r-defender-38-s-w.623404/

Because some of these saw use in World War 2 as home front security guard guns, and equipment for Liberty Ships, there is a bit more collector interest in them than there would be otherwise. I don't know anything about current values, though.

Like 455_Hunter says, there is nothing wrong with as a defensive gun, although sometime the DA trigger pulls on these old H&R's are heavy. Also, the ammunition available for it is pretty much that same now as it was in 1870's, when 38 S&W was introduced. There are better bullet designs available nowadays, at least in more popular ammo like 38 Special.

Yes,
In post 5 in that linked thread, the first pic, lower gun, is exactly what it looks like. That particular gun is SN 13000, just 102 after from the gun im questioning.

Trigger pull in DA is quite heavy, but crisp.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Very true. She just isnt real comfortable with it i guess. She is getting close to 80, but still works every day. She isnt feeble. A 410 shotgun would be her choice. Come to think of it, ive got a 410 870 she may be interested in...

---
$300 is good value for both. .38S&W factory ammo is pretty weak stuff and under-size, as well. There are too many BP guns still in circulation for the ammo makers to risk making police- or military-style loads available for the general public. Too many lawyers looking for easy lawsuits they know they can't lose.

 

[entropy]

The .410 is worth more than the H&R, but if you don't use it, and want the H&R, the difference isn't that much.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I like .38 S&W for a few reasons:

- Adequate but not excessive penetration with factory 145/146 gr LRN.
- Wound channel no worse than many other lower end rounds: . 22 LR (handgun) .25, .32 acp or .32 long. Yeah- we all know it's not a 9mm +P HST.
- low recoil and blast.

 

[BigBlue 94]

The .410 is worth more than the H&R, but if you don't use it, and want the H&R, the difference isn't that much.

Haven't shot it in years. It seems to be worth about 400. Its almost brand new too. Maybe 50 rounds through it.

 

[ontarget]

So if the young lady in question is interested in a trade do it with the caveat that you have the first right of refusal to pay her estate $300 for it when the time comes.
She feels protected while she is still here and you don't lose in the end either.
Win-Win.

 

[Monac]

I like .38 S&W for a few reasons:

- Adequate but not excessive penetration with factory 145/146 gr LRN.
- Wound channel no worse than many other lower end rounds: . 22 LR (handgun) .25, .32 acp or .32 long. Yeah- we all know it's not a 9mm +P HST.
- low recoil and blast.

Given the choice here, how do you think it compares to a 410 shotgun?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I like .38 S&W for a few reasons:

- Adequate but not excessive penetration with factory 145/146 gr LRN.
- Wound channel no worse than many other lower end rounds: . 22 LR (handgun) .25, .32 acp or .32 long. Yeah- we all know it's not a 9mm +P HST.
- low recoil and blast.

---
May I be so bold as to add a couple more good reasons for liking the .38S&W?

- it is flat easy to reload .38S&W
- the old police- and military-style loading data is still valid via older published data.

The Remington and Winchester .38 Super Police and .380/200 Mk.I British arsenal loads weren't exactly "weak." They served generations of lawmen in the US very well. Both are still potent enough to stop an intruder and make them think twice about their life's choices.

But they will bounce off of windshields so try to avoid shooting at cars with one.

 

[BigBlue 94]

Checked a couple LGS, no 38 S&W. Tons of 44 mag and 338 LM though! And some 22 shot shells.

 

[GEM]

https://www.outdoorlimited.com/hand...47&search_text=&per_row=20&sortBy=8&mode=list

Hurry up, only 1 left.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=350

 

[.455_Hunter]

Given the choice here, how do you think it compares to a 410 shotgun?

I would definitely give advantage to a .410 with the 5-pellet 000 buck loading, but definitely not as compact as the Defender.

 

[.455_Hunter]

---
May I be so bold as to add a couple more good reasons for liking the .38S&W?

- it is flat easy to reload .38S&W
- the old police- and military-style loading data is still valid via older published data.

The Remington and Winchester .38 Super Police and .380/200 Mk.I British arsenal loads weren't exactly "weak." They served generations of lawmen in the US very well. Both are still potent enough to stop an intruder and make them think twice about their life's choices.

But they will bounce off of windshields so try to avoid shooting at cars with one.

Yes- The .38 S&W gives good SOFT target penetration, usually at upper end of the FBI limit.

Too bad the heavier 178 or 200 gr loads are difficult to obtain currently.

 

[GEM]

Consider her situation and when she will use the gun. Will she carry the handgun around the house? Will the shotgun have to be retrieved and how long does it take an older person to do that under stress. How is she at moving around a house with a long arm? Can she hold a long arm and use the phone and a light? There's a little more to it than just having a gun. If it is a pump gun, they are prone to malfunctions with those not really practiced with them.

I'd stick with a handgun and if going to sell it, perhaps a different handgun. There is 22 LR and 22 Mag available - https://www.outdoorlimited.com/rimf...79&search_text=&per_row=20&sortBy=8&mode=list

Finding a gun might be the more difficult enterprise.

Yes, I know all the 22 and shotgun stopping power arguments.

If one wants a long arm - there are 10/22 out there. Easier to shoot and with a higher cap mag, not a trivial weapons. Trainers do recommend them for older folks, or even younger one. I wouldn't hesitate to have one if in today's times that was what I could get.

BTW, I can shoot a 12 gauge pump just fine at 73 but doing for a bit of time.

 

[jar]

I have one that is pre-Defender, even before model numbers or date codes. Love it.


Serial number is:


Mine was made before 1940, most likely in 1938 or 1939.

For H&R post 1940 date codes here is a table:

 

[Monac]

Yes- The .38 S&W gives good SOFT target penetration, usually at upper end of the FBI limit.

Too bad the heavier 178 or 200 gr loads are difficult to obtain currently.

How are they any more effective than the 146 grain load? The 200 grain RNL load was introduced here in the US and then adopted by the British, who later dropped it (for reasons of international law) for the 178 grain FMJ version. Both of those faded out of production decades ago. Did either of them have a better reputation than the original, and still available, 146 grain RNL load?

I understand that there are many old, flimsy, and originally inexpensive 38 S&W revolvers still out there, and ammo makers may not want to make anything that those guns cannot handle. But given the lukewarm popularity of the other 38 S&W loadings, I didn't think they actually had much to offer. But I'm always glad to learn I am wrong so that I can stop talking nonsense.

 

[GEM]

But I'm always glad to learn I am wrong so that I can stop talking nonsense.

That never happens on the Internet. Sorry couldn't resist.

 

[Monac]

A word on the plastic grips on these kind of Defenders: As I understand it, they are made of a plastic that was very common for many items back then called cellulose acetate. (One of the trade names was "Tenite".) It does NOT respond well to being kept in an enclosed space for a long period, at least when fairly new. It gives off a gas that makes it decay and crumble to pieces. Movie films used to made on "safety stock" made of cellulose acetate, and because movies were kept on reels in tight fitting cans, film collectors encountered this problem decades ago. They called it "vinegar syndrome", because the gas contained acetic acid, which made it smell like vinegar.

I have seen this type of H&R pistol grip ruined the same way, from long storage in a tight space or box. It may take a nearly airtight container, because it does not seem to happen often, but it can explain guns with damaged or replaced grips. I don't know if this outgassing stops after a while, but if it does, any grip that has survived until now should be fairly safe.

I really don't know a lot about plastic materials. I hope someone who does will comment on this, because it's another thing I'd like to get straight.