Handgun for protection from a grizzly?

[Bringsteen]

Whichever Handgun is Best, Here's a Reality Check

This is a passage from an article written by Phil Shoemaker, published in the November 2008 edition of Successful Hunter

BEAR ATTACKS:
A LOOK AT ALASKA’S DLP LAW

"Considering the increasing numbers of hunters, hikers, campers, photographers, fishermen and outside visitors in the state, if bears were anywhere near the threat that most people imagine, there would be dozens of maulings per year.
Instead there are an average of one or two. Every year thousands of visitors
hike, fish and camp unarmed in our national parks and wildlife refuges, where bear encounters are commonplace. Occasionally an unattended cooler or backpack gets mauled, but one seldom hears of a visitor being injured.
As long as you use common sense, avoid attracting bears with food and learn a little about bear behavior (it is not much different from that of dogs), the majority of bear problems are easily avoided. Although . . . a big gun and a flashlight can be mighty comforting."

 

[arizonaguide]

Some great footage from National Geographic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oB8ue178s8&feature=related

The original question:

Just my opinion, but I would not shoot at a grizzly with a handgun. I am a decent enough shot, but with an enraged grizzly charging at me I would sure rather have a 12 gauge pump loaded full of rifled slugs.
Does anyone have an opinion on a handgun that would stop a grizzly with one shot?

Answer:
VERY UNLIKELY you will stop(drop) a Grizzly in one shot with ANY handgun. PLEASE don't put yourself in that position.
Very unlikely you will actually "DROP" a grizzly with just about any gun except the highest power rifles. SLOW metabolism/super strong. Shoot them through the heart and often they still charge 30-40 yards, or more, and live for several minutes.

"A .300-Magnum rifle or a 12-gauge shotgun with rifled slugs are appropriate weapons if you have to shoot a bear."
-Alaska Dept of Fish and Game

 

[Redhawk1]

arizonaguide, you are wrong! There is a lot of handguns that are capable of dropping a grizzly with one shot, just as there are rifles and shotguns capable. (SHOT PLACEMENT)

You look like a fool preaching a bunch of crap that is untrue.

We are not telling you that you are posting a bunch of crap for our health. You have an agenda about handguns, and will post reticules BS to make your point.

Even if you shot a Grizzly with a 600 Nitro, if you don't hit the CNS you will not drop it with one shot. But that does not make the 600 Nitro a bad choice, just a miss placed bullet.

But to say no handgun is capable is not true. You need to learn a lot more about handguns before you come here and feed us a load of crap.

You sound more like a PETA member and an Anti-gun nut. Just calling it like I see it.

 

[Isher]

All -

Then its RPG, as the weapon of choice, for sure.

Yes?

Just gotta get your permits.


isher

 

[arizonaguide]

It's all about taking ENOUGH gun! (or avoidance is better yet!)

I guess you are the one I'm talking to Redhawk.

About that "anti-gun/PITA" crap. Were you at this years pro-second amendment Gun Rights Policy Conference? I was.
Don't change the subject. Or, to quote your own words (you wrongly said to Gunny):

"The usual response when someone does not know what they are talking about".

What I AM preaching is ENOUGH respect for DANGEROUS (possibly 1000lb+++) wildlife.
The odds of hitting a charging bear at 10 yards with a CNS shot are slim-to-freakin-none. Do me a favor Redhawk, and get a few Bear Hunting vids from Cabellas and show me ONE SINGLE instance where a bear was literally "DROPPED" with one shot, from ANY gun...let alone a handgun. Watch and see how many yards they move after the first shot.

Now imagine that, in your campsite with your children, at 10 yards with your (1650fps/1831ftlb)handgun rounds.
Hopefully that DEATH CHARGE IS NOT in the direction of your family...especially when you shoot them at 10 yards in the campground...worse, with an UNDERPOWERED round.

THAT can get you killed. Or worse, someone innocent (like ME or MY children) 2 campgrounds over.

Does that sound like "anti-gun rheteric" to you?

Because it's just the opposite!
It's all about taking ENOUGH gun! (or avoidance). (RPG would do it).

But, with BIG bears it's ALWAYS a "maybe"....that's the point!!!

I don't hear that RESPECT FOR 1000lb BEARS in your posts Redhawk...and that's what concerns me.
THAT's what get's innocent folks hurt.
Don't get me wrong, I loved my M-77...but I didn't feel confident with a .243 (3000fps/2000ftlb) against bear...even though it's done. Think of it as being similar to a charging Rhino...(at 10yds, in your camp with your wife/kids).

But hey, from now on, I'll let Darwin speak for me.
Just hopefully no one else (wife/kids/ME) gets hurt when you wound one of those 1000 pounders.

MORE important: learn the ways to avoid the confrontation so that ignorance, and that pistol shot, doesn't wound one of the sacred Alaska Treasures, and result in their suffering (and cubs being destroyed) because that person wasn't interested enough to learn proper bear ettiquate, and "I Got my Dirty-Harry-Beargun right here" was all they needed/wanted to know. (I'm only speaking to "THAT" person...not everyone here).

Again Redhawk, I ask you: what tricks/tips did you learn about AVOIDING bear incidents on your Artic Circle hunt? THAT is what I'm (sorry)preaching about!


Small Sow in camp (with Cub learning bad things) Denali Alaska.

 

[saturno_v]

Arizonaguide

As I said several times I do not have any hunting experience and I saw bears only at the zoo

But you cannot deny physics... and physics showed me a 30-30 hardcast bullet at 50 yards or so going through 2 bull heads stacked one in front of each other, a thick wood plank behind, few layers (I think 5 or 6) of heavy carpet behind that and finally going very deep into the live oak that was supporting the all thing.

I do not think grizzly are steel plated animals...I have enormous respect for them....for any animal for that matter....I would never ever shoot one unless I would really be cornered.

But this is what I saw, and I find difficult to believe that at the same distance the same bullet would have penetrated a live grizzly only for few inches.

Redhawk is right....a missplaced shot even with a 600 Nitro Express would get you in trouble anyway...that means the caliber is inadequate?? hardly....

I already posted the link to the Garrett web page where they claim that their 44 Mag Hammerhead will penetrate a grizzly up to the hip even when the skull is engaged...I'm sorry but that sounds like a good penetration to me.. ..

You have years of experiences in the wilderness, I respect that, and I cannot even imagine what it means dealing with an angered magnificent animal like a grizzly...I would definitely fudge my pants.....but I think that once the shooter has an adequate firearm in his hands, wrong shot placement and/or improper bullet construction are the main cause of trouble.

From what I read and heard, the only sure way to end a grizzly charge on its tracks is a direct CNS hit...it doesn't matter if it is a 44 Mag or a 416 Rigby...if the bullet gets there it's game over.

Look at this link

http://www.man-eater.info/gpage4.html

It is the story of a lion being shot several times with very powerful guns before to die....the incident did cost the life of one or two men and the mauling of another...

A lion is a lighter animal than a Grizzly bear and probably more thin skinned....one the shooter, the guide, blasted him point blank in the face with 2 shots of 470 Nitro Express, which is a powerful elephant cartridge, out of a double barreled rifle...incredibly the lion took it and kept charging.....what did happen?? One of the shot probably went high and hit the fatty mane not making any damage...the other went low and broke the Lion jaw (which probably saved the life of the mauled man).....I asked to a very experienced African hunter here on the THR....what a 470 NE slug would do if it hit a lion head fair and square at point blank?? The answer was short and simple..."it would pulverize it, not question about it"...if that slug instead of hitting the lion lower jaw would have hit few inches higher on the nose, the skull would have probably been split open and the lion would have been anchored....bullet placement

Nowdays if you go for a canned African Safari, they require at minimum a 375 H&H....but the good old 303 British dropped lions very effectively for more than 6 decades when Britannia ruled the continent...

Shot placement and bullet construction....

There are calibers that would be inadequate, penetration wise, not matter how skilled the shooter is??? (unless the magic impossible shot like the .22 in the eye....) Of course there is a minimum.....A light 7.62 X 39 round if definitely inadequate...any deer class soft point bullet or Hollow Point is inadequate, no matter the cartridge, for that matter...

Then you have the difference between charge and hunting...is a 30-30 a 200 yards bear hunting cartridge?....of course no.....but at close range with heavy quality hardcast you stand a decent chance if you know very well where to shoot.

 

[saturno_v]

Arizonaguide

You said:

"Don't get me wrong, I loved my M-77...but I didn't feel confident with a .243 against bear...even though it's done. Think of it as being similar to a charging Rhino...(at 10yds, in your camp with your wife/kids)."

Yes, of course a .243 is an inadequate Grizzly round!!!

Even if the energy level is similar to a 30-30 (around 2000 ft/lb) you have a very light bullet of significantly smaller diameter which shed velocity very quickly and I do not think they make quality solid/hardcast bullet in that caliber either.

Energy alone is not everything...you cannot compare a soft point .243 with a hardcast 30-30 in terms of penetration..it's like comparing apples with oranges.

Do not get me wrong..I'm not saying that a 30-30 or a 35 Remington are ideal....but they are not pellet gun either and they would get the critter attention in the hands of a good shooter

 

[arizonaguide]

Saterno, I don't disagree with anything you've said. And I have been away from it for awhile (and new things are invented like more powerful 30-30 and 30-06 rounds/better bullets). You folks know more than me about the latest and greatest.


What I have seen, and what concerns me is:

Those folks who aren't interested enough to learn proper bear ettiquate, because "I Got my Dirty-Harry-Beargun right here, and that's all I needed/wanted to know" mentality...(and are anxious to "try it out"/pull the trigger).

Since the late 1970's, that is who are showing up more and more in the Alaska Bush...with ONLY a handgun. (there's a reason old Alaskan's make jokes like filing down the front sight!).

That concerns me.

That, and those who would spin that honest concern for people and wildlife into "anti-second amendment" crap.
C'mon. That's lame.

One thing I do want to point out on that "CNS headshot/penetration" thing...is that you have to catch them at just the right angle, or it will deflect off their thick skull. That is not easy to do with a 1000lb animal at 10 yards in camp, and is UNLIKELY. 90% of shots on bear are NOT CNS shots and result in a DEATH CHARGE (or RUN) of 40 yards or more. HOWEVER, a high powered round MAY break a bear down...BREAK a shoulder/hip and immobilize him...if you're lucky. If not (and that's 90% of the time), EXPECT a 40 yard run/charge.

The point about any gun (416/470, etc.) being a "maybe" is EXACTLY what I've been trying to say.

That IS the point. So why plan on a handgun, given the choice? Convenience?

IF it's MY family...I'll skip the "convenience" for a more powerfull round, thank you.

 

[saturno_v]

If I would ever go hike in the Alaska wilderness, I would carry my Mossberg 500 with 3 inches Brenneke Black Magic and my 44 Mag long barrel revolver with Garrett Hammerheads on my hip..

It is the best combination I have in my arsenal for bear defence ....My bolt action 30-06 and my 3 Mosin Nagant 91/30 would be too slow (at least for me, I'm left handed and my bolt rifles are right handed), and, even if it never jammed, I cannot trust my semi-auto, or any semiauto for that matter, Remington 742 in 30-06 for bear defence.... there is still a probability of jamming....if I could trust a semi-auto 110%, 12 lightning fast rounds (the capacity of one of my magazines for my Remmy) of heavy 30-06 would ruin any grizzly day, I think...
And I would prefer my Mossberg shotgun to my Marlin 336 in 30-30.
I agree about maximum respect for the animals and the environment. When I hike or camp, I make sure that I do not leave even the smallest scrap of paper on the ground.

Look at this guy on YouTube fast unloading 5 rounds of heavy 30-06 (200 gr) out of his 742 (labelled Bear Gun in his video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnH19Tr0r1Q

Frankly, I would not like to be on the wrong side of that barrel, even if I were a Grizzly....

I did speak with a former Alaskan guide at a gun show last year and he told me that in the days he was carrying a Remington 760 pump action rifle in 30-06 (basically the same rifle as the 742, but instead of being semi automatic you have to pump it yourself...more reliable) with a 10 rounds magazine

 

[arizonaguide]

Good choice Saturno. Your logic (and attitude) is right on the money.
Back it up with Pepper Spray, and good Bear Etiquate, and you should be good to go.

My Dad told me a story about a guy that was killed. They found the bones, and a whole bunch of unfired cartridges on the ground next to the gun, where he levered the rounds, but never fired (under stress).

 

[Redhawk1]

arizonaguide , look at my posts before you started with the poor Grizzly being killed.

My idea of bear protection is "Avoidance" making good choices in what you do.
When I was in Alaska, I carried a 300 Win Mag for my Caribou hunt. I had my 454 Casull as my back up handgun.

In my tent the handgun was right there with me at all times. My rifle in my tent use useless.

When we had the Grizzly come in our camp, we backed out of the camp with our rifles in hand, and ready to shoot, my handgun was on my hip.

Of course I would use my rifle before my handgun, but for whatever reason, you feel no handgun is adequate to get the job done. Which is not true.

My whole point about handguns is, with a good hard cast bullet a handgun in 44 Mag up to 500 Mag will penetrate and can reach the CNS of an animal with ease.

Also if you read what I wrote, there is going to be times no matter what you are carrying, you may never get a shot off.

You then talk about how if anyone shot a Grizzly with a handgun, it may get the people in the next camp etc... Well if someone had whatever gun you thought was the perfect bear gun, and did a poor shot, the same could happen. Am I right.

But where I was, I was 150 miles from the nearest town, The nearest people to us were probably that far.
Out where we where, we had to us good judgement, we did not have a car to drive to the hospital. We had to rely on using our heads, the plain was 2 hours away from us and a sat phone call was needed to get them.


You keep saying use enough gun, well the 44 Mag and up is enough gun.
As for just camping in Alaska for fun with my family, I don't do it. A lot of money to just go camping in Alaska, when I live in Delaware.

I go to Alaska to hunt, so I carry a rifle and handgun. Rifle choice is 300 Win Mag and up and handgun choice is 454 Casull and up. And know how to prevent a bear from coming to camp. But even the best prepared may have an encounter. Use your head, stay calm, 98% of the bear will leave once a humane is contacted. It is the 2% of the bear that you will have a problem with.

My experience was, I ran into the 98% Grizzly bear, and he decided he did not want any part of us, as we decided we did not want any part of him.

 

[arizonaguide]

Fair enough, Redhawk.

I guess you don't fit into that category that I'm worried about.
"arizonaguide, you are wrong! There is a lot of handguns that are capable of dropping a grizzly with one shot":banghead:

CUZ, IF you are all about avoidance and good bear ettiquate...Peace and goodwill to you, Bro!
(from ME and the Bears! )

I just wanted to clear up about me being anti-second ammendment (c'mon/lame), and express my concern about the possibility and dangers of a wounded bear (yes, by any gun) especially in the hands of inexperienced "Dirty Harry" wannabe's...that ARE showing up in the Alaska Bush with handguns (or AK-47/SKS/AR-15's) as their "primary' weapon.


From my 35+years of Alaska experience, (and also much time worth of other folks war stories) I will NEVER feel ANY handgun is enough for large bear, until they make one that fires a round of 3000/3000ftlb+ with a good solid (larger caliber)Bullet!
And that could carry several rounds for the 40yard Death Charge.


For what it's worth, I've fired successful "warning shots" with a rifle, at a large Brown Bear from inside my tent flap...with no problems. And, Dad was inside the tent next to me ALSO pointing his (higher caliber)rifle out of the tent, at the same time.

It's not so "unwieldy" as one is led to believe. "Convenience" is OVERRATED when it comes to large Brown Bears.
Put the odds in YOUR favor, and (for EVERYONE'S sake) don't show up in Bear Country with a handgun as your primary weapon.
Bring a Magnum Caliber rifle, pepper spray also, and, learn the skills of avoidance.

 

[pps]

"What I AM preaching is ENOUGH respect for DANGEROUS (possibly 1000lb+++) wildlife.
The odds of hitting a charging bear at 10 yards with a CNS shot are slim-to-freakin-none. Do me a favor Redhawk, and get a few Bear Hunting vids from Cabellas and show me ONE SINGLE instance where a bear was literally "DROPPED" with one shot, from ANY gun...let alone a handgun. Watch and see how many yards they move after the first shot."


The two blackies I got were both UNDER 300#. One dropped there but wasn't dead (broke the shoulder) and was given a follow up for good measure and to be safe. The other i shot through both lungs and heart and he stayed on his feet for what seemed an eternity. My grandfather told me not to bother with a follow up, saying, "He's dead, he just doesn't know it yet." He went about 20yards before dropping. That was us hunting them, not vise versa.

If a sub-300#er was that tough I don't want to find out the hard way how tough these brown bears can be. One of these days I will go to Alaska, and I will take a guide...it's a good excuse to tell the one who must be obeyed that I need a new rifle...lol

 

[AKCOP]

Have not read all posts but until you face a pissed off brown/grizzly you do not understand that any handgun is in almost 99% of the cases not going to save your butt. Old adage in Alaska, if you want to carry a handgun for bear protection make sure you file off the front sight so it doesn't hurt so bad when the bear sticks it up your.........well you know the rest.
After an experience I had that resulted in my having to change my pants I settled on a semi-auto 30-06 with 220 gr and learned to make a lot of noise or totally avoid them when I was in their house.

 

[Guns and more]

"Don't shoot him, it will only make him mad."
..................................... Blazing Saddles.

 

[arizonaguide]

Have not read all posts but until you face a pissed off brown/grizzly you do not understand that any handgun is in almost 99% of the cases not going to save your butt.

AKCOP, you have my utmost respect! If you are a Trooper, you were probably the one who had to clean up the mess.

You (like I) have probably had to hear cubs screaming over their dead mother, and then watch as they too were destroyed, from someone elses lack of proper respect for them.

With Big Bears, If you have to shoot (god forbid, learn aviodance ettiquate) have something that will end it quickly, for everyones sake.

 

[Redhawk1]

:banghead::banghead::

 

[arizonaguide]

"There is (are?) a lot of handguns that are capable of dropping a grizzly with one shot"
"You keep saying use enough gun, well the 44 Mag and up is enough gun."

Good luck with that, when you meet a REAL BIG ANGRY bear, RH.
The odds of hitting a charging bear at 10 yards with a CNS shot are slim-to-freakin-none.
MOST shots result in a DEATH CHARGE (or RUN) of 40 yards or more.
Especially a SOW protecting her cubs. You are overconfident in that handgun.
R-e-s-p-e-c-t. Bro! I can't say it any more nicely/clearly.


I appologize to eveyone else (mods) if I get a little worked-up about it all.

 

[arizonaguide]

Alaska...44mag is NOT enough.

Couple more pic's...but not mine. (this is when you want 12ga/pepper spray.)

notice the size of that Brown's head/paws!


nice to have friends willing to take the time to take your picture, huh?

 

[4Freedom]

I just wanted to clear up about me being anti-second ammendment (c'mon/lame), and express my concern about the possibility and dangers of a wounded bear (yes, by any gun) especially in the hands of inexperienced "Dirty Harry" wannabe's...that ARE showing up in the Alaska Bush with handguns (or AK-47/SKS/AR-15's) as their "primary' weapon.

Is an AR15 really such a bad gun? What about AR10/LR-308 gun with hunting type round? Sorry I am not an expert, but I think an LR-308 would be far superior ro a bolt gun for stopping a charging grizzly bear since it has accuracy and power. I mean if you have a 20 round mag of .308 bullets and you can shoot out to 1000 yards and quickly reload, wouldn't that be much better than having to worry about reloading a bolt? When a monster sized bear is charging you, automation may be your friend. I mean, you are not going to be in your right senses like at the shooting range.

As for a handgun or some sophisticated gun you will have to put together before shooting.. Dang, I think many forget how scary it is to have a rabid or wild bear of that size charging you.

I had a bear tracking me, following me in the forest for about quarter of a mile. I tell you I was freaked out. I was armed only with pepper spray. This was only black bear ,but even at 300lbs it will scare the crap out of you. Luckily, with a black bear where I live, when you scream and hollar at it, it will freak out too and run away. But having this bear follow me was terrifying. I mean, My heart was beating, I felt like running at times. People think its so easy to load a gun and fire under stress. You gotta think fast, real fast.

A bear is not a deer. And when you bump into a man-eating bear, chances are it may be stalking you or you will have just bumped into it along the trail. What to do with the element of surprise?

I like the advice I heard about portable shotgun. I think in place like Alaska, you can carry a loaded shotgun everywhere. I would like to know more about lightweight and portable shotguns and a high caliber hand gun for backup. You need a piece that will respond quick. Also, shooting a bear from a very long distance is not ethical. The main reason is that a majority, like 90% of charges from a bear are bluffs. Most bears will charge to scare you and then go away. If you just blast a bear at 800 yards away, you probably killed a bear that meant no harm and orphaned its cubs. When it comes to killing a bear, you need a gun that will stop it when it gets close.

P.S. I hear polar bears are in a whole different league than grizzlies. They are much more deadly and carniverous than their grizzly relatives. Grizzlies are more vegetarian and fish eaters. Polars love taste of larger animal flesh.

 

[arizonaguide]

Hey, 4Freedom,
Good questions...and excellent Bear attitude. You are right about Polar Bears. They are considered much more carnivourous, AND much more cunning.

I Had a coworker up North that had a similar incident (tragedy) as the guy in the Brown Bear picture above. The Polar bear actually came through the window (came right thru the glass) and mauled him...and the bear was finally killed with a 12ga, inside the building. He had to be flown to Seattle, and take a medical retirement. They are serious animals...and NOT to be taken lightly.

The .223 is too light, and the .308 is right on the border. Yes, a 30rd magazine makes up for a lot, but most people consider a bolt action less likely to jam. But, I MIGHT feel comfortable with a AR-10. I did carry a M1Garand as a "bear rifle" for awhile (30-06) until my buddies kept getting on my a-- about it, and convinced me to put that sucker away and go back to the .300.
(I was young, and I thought the Garand was cool...hell it was cool! )

You ALSO make a very good point about Rabbies! That is another issue in Alaska, and is very common among fox and squirrel...and it spreads quickly. Very good point. I guess that's another plus for the Shotgun.

 

[arizonaguide]

Rereading the "A THR Primer on Courtesy" post...

Folks, I guess I've beat this to death...and maybe I wasn't as curteous about the subject as I could/should have been.

It's a subject I'm passionate about.

But, I was rereading "A THR Primer on Courtesy" and realized I may have been "yelling" about some of this. For that I appologize.
I have to realize I can't change everyone's mind about handguns for bears. Ain't gonna happen.

For the moderators sake, I will bow out of this thread, and perhaps it might be better over at the hunting section anyway.

I like to think we accomplished something, and I HOPE that I was "a positive" experience on this subject, and not a negative.
Cheers.

arizonaguide

 

[Redhawk1]

arizonaguide , ok now that you keep pushing the handgun issue OVER AND OVER.

You talk about a CNS hit. You have to do the same with a shotgun or Rifle. It does not matter the platform, handgun, shotgun or rifle.

If you don't have any gun, you are dead, at least you have a chance with a handgun. Damn are you that hard headed or what!!!!

And I am not your Bro!


4Freedom , if you are in bear country, you better keep you gun loaded, a unloaded gun is nothing but a rock.

 

[IMTHDUKE]

Can't you just feel the love here?

 

[Redhawk1]

No I don't feel the love, but I can smell the bull.....