Handgun sound levels (dba levels)

[GooseGestapo]

I'm currently having a problem with complaints from a not so nearby neighbor regarding me shooting on a range I've constructed on my property.

I've been shooting primarily handguns. However, he complained back in September after I had shot earlier in the afternoon, and another adjacent neighbor shot a highpowered rifle later. I was cutting grass when the second shots were fired and I thought to myself, "I bet I get credit for that!".
About 45min later, a Sheriffs' deputy drove up in my driveway.

After a short "amicable" discussion, the deputy left and talked to the neighbor.

I didn't shoot again until early March when I started practicing for the PPC season and a Regional the first weekend of May. On April 28th, the neighbor again called the SO, and a deputy came out.

A long story a little shorter: I took my land plat and aerial photo's I'd taken and met with the Cheif Deputy after talking over the phone with the Sheriff. (I've known them all for many years- I'm a retired State LEO)
The SO see's no problem; however the complaining land owner is irrate, and had a meeting with the County commission last friday. He didn't know I was present and frankly probably didn't care. He's refused to contact me or discuss the matter. The SO has talked to him and suggested he talk to me as they intend to do "nothing" and will not respond to further complaints regarding this matter. He's advised that he intends to pursue civil action.

I don't really think that he can shut me down. He made a comment that he "DOSEN'T" have a problem with people "Occasionly" shooting or "deer hunting" [ie; indiscrimant-random discharging of highpowered rifle's at moving targets with unknown backstops!], but he has a problem with me shooting 300-400rds in a 2-3hr shooting session normally between 1-3:30pm when sun is overhead and he's trying to sleep (works pm's), or his kids might be playing in his yard or on his property (70deg. right from the extended direction of my firing zone -which is due north). Three other closer neighbors have not had a problem. (including the one who fired the shots from the first complaint- he has a shooting house-deer stand overlooking my property). My daughter says she slept through a practice session at my house 500' away and never knew I had shot!

I need to know if anyone has data on the approximate db level of a .45acp, 9mm Para, and .38spl at 50' or so, and if they can extrapolate the levels to a distance of 1,500'. And, compare that to average noise levels of a 2-lane U.S.Hwy at 200' or sirens and exhaust of a fire truck at 1,500' (opposite direction from me). I know some of you guys are engineers of some "flavor" and should be able to steer me in the direction I need to look.


Thanks!

 

[geekWithA.45]

Why extrapolate when you can measure?

Spend $60-$120 on a sound level meter, and take readings.

It's much more compelling to tell the county people that the average noise level at the intersection of thus and so was measured to be X, and the average noise level of my range @ 1500' was measured to be y, than refering to theoreticals.

This one's a good price/performance value, but there are others if you poke around that site.

http://www.extech.com/instrument/products/400_450/407732.html

 

[LawBot5000]

Nuisance law is a pain in the ass and could politely termed to be inconsistent IMO.

Still, I wouldn't imagine gunshots during daylight hours would be considered a nuisance in rural georgia. It is pretty much a pervasive activity and enjoining you from shooting wont really stop all your neighbors from doing it either. Ie, there isnt really any relief that can be granted short of getting the legislature to outlaw the activity. An argument could also be made about not accomodating ultra-sensitive plaintiffs as well. You could sort of try a "moving to the niusance" argument because people have been practicing their shooting in the hills of georgia for as long as there have been rednecks with guns there. If someone moves out to the country, they should pretty much expect to hear gunfire from time to time.

I am not a lawyer yet but I did well in torts.

 

[Cosmoline]

One factor is whether the neighbor moved into the area after the range was already set up. Or whether they moved into the area after ad hoc shooting was already common. You'll need to assemble evidence either way. If your state or LG has some licensing system for ranges, you might also seek to get approval under those provisions as a means of avoiding a nuisance claim. But as noted the law of nuisance is arcane, complex and varies from state to state. Consulting an attorney would be a wise decision. Sooner rather than later. A letter from counsel explaining why the neighbor has no case may be helpful in nipping this in the bud.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Thanks for the replys so far.

I'm familar with the eqipment as I was envolved with developing a lesson plan when our state passed sound level restrictions on boats. However, due to the cost and certification and legal issues involved with the testing (ie: similar to alcohol level testing of operators!) I suggested the plan and law were untenable. The legislature later agreed and the law was changed back to the original plan.

As far as testing the existing levels:
1. I'd have to get a court order to enter upon his property to do the testing. Not likely as I don't intend to spend a dime I don't have to on defending myself against a frivolous complaint (the SO's determination, not mine).

2. I don't intend on giving him ammo to possibly use against me if the numbers aren't in my favor. His property dosen't touch mine so I'd have to tip my hand to do actual testing and this might uneccessarily "muddy" the water in his favor.

3. I have access to licensed professional engineers who could do the testing that would be acceptable and stand up to "standards of evidence" should it be neccessary to go to court. It would however involve expense I'd prefer not to incur unless neccessary.

Just trying to decide if I "need" to go there, first.

P.S: adhoc shooting was already existant, and was one of the factors I considered when deciding to purchase the property. The matter with the "rifle shots" by the adjacent neighbor have to do with the fact that he'd heard me shooting and was "pissed off" because I won't let him shoot deer on my property. Besides that, I issued him citations in 1995 for hunting deer over bait and without flourescent orange clothing. So, I DO have court documentation of "adhoc" use of firearms in the area. The complaintant also has food plots and deer stands and illegal salt blocks on his propery (all 9.4ac of it). He moved into the area three years ago. I bought my property 2yrs ago and move in one yr. ago. I think you can see where this comes from and where it's going !!!

 

[mdao]

Inexpensive sound meters cannot be used to accurately measure pistol reports as impulse lengths are measured in hundreds of microseconds, while most inexpensive sound meters have response times on the order of hundreds of milliseconds. Note that Silencer Talk's measurement gear has response times in the tens of microseconds.

With reasonably priced equipment, you'll likely have to measure the attenuation of a known source at your range (speakers measured at X dB at 1') from his property, then apply that to pistol report loudness as measured by others with better equipment (~ 155 dB at 1' is a good approximation).

Quick and dirty approximation. This represents the upper limit of loudness 1500' away, since it's rather difficult to take any barriers into account without knowing what they are. Peak handgun report measured at 1' is ~ 155 dB. It's fairly reasonable to approximate the report of a handgun as a point source, so the appropriate approximation is a 6 dB drop per doubling of distance. 1,500' is roughly 2^10' to 2^11'. So say, 60 dB to 66 dB attenuation from your range to his yard, assuming no intervening barriers.

So the upper limit of noise on his property is going to be around 90-95 dB.

 

[Legion1776]

Get some suppressors and be done with it. - In fact tell him that.


As far as dB levels on the various un-suppressed calibers --that will of course depend on many factors. If anybody can give you a good guessitmate the fellas at www.silencertests.com will be able to.


Edit: looks like mdao beat me to it.

 

[rkh]

I'd strongly consider giving the guy a telephone call.

See if you can reach a compromise. Save the noisy calibers for weekends, rimfire during the week?

 

[PRazz]

Sounds like he isn't man enough to talk face to face and just wants to call the sheriff and let them handle it(glad they said what they said and he got his answer to that. At this point I would not try going over there to talk. He could make an accusation that you brought a gun with you and threatened him on his own property(wife or kids could lie to back him up). His word against yours.
I would write a short letter saying that you wished that he would have come to you first and worked something out. Explain that you understand that he works odd hours and you would like to know when is the worst time to shoot(afternoon/evenings). Have your lawyer look over the letter if you wish, send it certified, keep a copy for court. At least you could show that you are a reasonable person and attempted to work things out. Take a week off from shooting and wait for a reply. If no reply- commence firing. If he's an arse about it- commence firing. If he's civil and replies that between 3-6pm is a bad time- try to respect that.
I wouldn't worry about decible readings and trying to prove anything. It's your property, do what you want. If he don't like it he can move. Many ppl who sleep during the day use earplugs, maybe nicely suggest he try some in the letter.

 

[Travis McGee]

This might not work for the type of shooting you're interested in, but you might consider building some type of noise reducing shed around your shooting table or firing line. It might cut the noise down to the point the problem is solved.

 

[jfh]

all the posts so far

seem to suggest a good strategy, I think--

Travis has a good one, though. Even a simple barrier on the side towards the offended neighbor ought to reduce the noice level significantly. two walls and an open top help a lot--

But, even if you get a cheap meter, you ought to be able to prepare a good rationale that the noise is neither overly loud nor necessarily offensive.

Getting the Highway numbers sounds like a good idea, too--am I to infer that his residence might be near that highway?

Jim H.

 

[Deavis]

As far as testing the existing levels:
1. I'd have to get a court order to enter upon his property to do the testing. Not likely as I don't intend to spend a dime I don't have to on defending myself against a frivolous complaint (the SO's determination, not mine).

You don't need to enter his property or get fancy equipment. Check your lawbook for noise ordinances. They will specify a decibel rating that is allowed along with a weighting system that must be used. The decibel rating will apply at the border of your property line. They will also, normally, have some reference to any other requirements for equipment mentioned as well (height to measure at, direction to sound, etc...)

You have to realize that the equipment you read about on silencer tests isn't what you want anyhow, you aren't doing the same kind of measurement. You don't really care about the impulse length in the same way the guys there do. What you'll be measuring is the impulse as it has decayed and all the harmonics associated with it as it has travelled towards you. Stand 1500' feet away and listen to a gun shot, the fact that you can hear it as a long sound rather than an incredibly short impulse should explain what I mean. That is the sound they will measure, not the purer millisecond impulse you hear 10 feet away from a supressed weapon system.

Here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

http://www.nonoise.org/lawlib/cities/houston.htm

Sec. 30-8. Method of sound measurement.

Whenever portions of this chapter prohibit sound over a certain decibel limit, measurement of said sound shall be made with a Type 1 or Type 2 calibrated sound level meter utilizing the A-weighting scale and the slow meter response as specified by the American National Standards Institute (A.N.S.I. S1.4-1984/85A). [Image]Noise[Image] levels shall be measured in decibels and A-weighted. The unit of measurement shall be designated as dB(A). Meters shall be maintained in calibration and good working order. Calibrations shall be employed which meet A.N.S.I. S1.40-1984 prior to and immediately after every sampling of sound. Measurements recorded shall be taken so as to provide a proper representation of the sound being measured. The microphone of said meter shall be positioned so as not to create any unnatural enhancement or diminution of the measured sound. A windscreen for said microphone shall be used. Except as provided in sections 30-5 and 30-7(i), measurements shall be taken at or near the nearest property line of the property where the sound is being received.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Personally, I wouldn't do anything regarding sound levels and engineers until he's actually filed a suit. No point in losing sleep over something that more than likely just empty threats. If you do get served, you'll have plenty of time to figure those things out. May not hurt to try to work something out with him, but I don't think numbers are going to sway him.

"deer hunting" [ie; indiscrimant-random discharging of highpowered rifle's at moving targets with unknown backstops!]

I probably wouldn't mention your opinion of hunters in court, just in case the judge might like to randomonly discharge high-powered rifles at moving targets.

 

[rkh]

Personally, I wouldn't do anything until he's actually filed a suit.

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. If he does file suit, you'll have to lawyer up, and that will cost you thousands of dollars in attorney fees and you risk being enjoined from shooting on your property.

Also, compliance with any noise ordnance that may be in effect has no bearing on your neighbor's nuisance claim. It just means that the city or county has no cause of action against you.

Unless the guy moved in AFTER you constructed and began to regularly use your range, I seriously doubt the "moving to the nuisance" defense will fly. It might be worth talking to a local attorney that specializes in land use matters. I'm sure he will give you better advice than you'll find on any gun board.

Good Luck

 

[rkh]

deleted

 

[.cheese.]

I agree with whomever said to get some sound suppressors. Unfortunately, if it went to court, the law could work against you, and I have a bad feeling it probably would.

As for measuring sound, you'll want an acoustic impulse meter which will record the peak level. Then you can just go in front of his house (I'm sure there's a road there right?) and test it. Or have a friend test it while you shoot. Just use cellphones to coordinate.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

I'm not sure I agree with that statement. If he does file suit, you'll have to lawyer up, and that will cost you thousands of dollars in attorney fees and you risk being enjoined from shooting on your property.

I'm afraid I wasn't clear. I meant I wouldn't bother with any of his fancy sound level information gathering unless a suit is filed. While he certainly should try to work it out with his neighbor otherwise, I don't think the guy is going to be swayed by numbers. It sounds like he's probably still unhappy that the OP cited him 12 years ago and wants to make sure to ruin his fun.

I have edited my post for clarification.

 

[Gary Frost]

Goose,
I have been through the same thing here. The smartest thing I did was find out about my states range protection act. Not only does it protect outdoor ranges it also protects farmers from foolish lawsuits.

This guy went to all my nearby neighbors and wanted them to sign a petition barring me from shooting on my own property. It didn't work out so well for him because all my neighbors have a lump of dirt to shoot into.

Anyways he finally went full blown nuts and was carried away. Problem solved.

 

[Gary Frost]

Goose,
I have been through the same thing here. The smartest thing I did was find out about my states range protection act. Not only does it protect outdoor ranges it also protects farmers from foolish lawsuits.

This guy went to all my nearby neighbors and wanted them to sign a petition barring me from shooting on my own property. It didn't work out so well for him because all my neighbors have a lump of dirt to shoot into.

Anyways he finally went full blown nuts and was carried away. Problem solved.

 

[inkhead]

I think many of the comments are "stick it to him", however what if the situation were reversed? Maybe you are "just" under the sound limit for causing problems. But what if you worked at night, got home to sleep, and woke up a bit later because a non-stop valley of fire was going off? It sounds like it's the shooting for a long period of time that's annoying him. Where I live the closed neighbor is 5 miles away, and we can hear each other when we are outside firing for even a few minutes, so if it's anything like that it can be really frustrating.

Granted the guy might be unusual for sleeping during the day, but can't you guys work something out? If not you may want to use a range or wait until you can control the noise. I know you might be legally within your rights, but he's your neighbor, if he won't talk to you on the phone, send him a letter, and save a copy.

 

[Geister]

But what if you worked at night, got home to sleep, and woke up a bit later because a non-stop valley of fire was going off?

Then the guy needs to move instead of expecting the world to revolve around him. From the sounds of it the neighbor lives several hundred yards away.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Thanks for all the replys guys.

I actually got what I was looking for with the 155db and 90-95db.

Thats about what I was thinking.

I have considered the sound barriers, but I was waiting to see what some of the "fall out" after the County Commission meeting was.

There are a lot of small "incidentals" that are playing in this issue.

Some are:
I know most of the attorneys in town, and a large number are pro-hunting. The State Court Judge's husband used to own the largest gun shop in the County and I frequented it often. She heard most of my cases I took to court, and she is obviously very pro-hunter and shooter.
The Magistrate Judge has also heard cases I took to court and often issued warrants I needed. Her brother managed a substantial sized parcel of land and I often helped him prosecute people hunting at night and without permission. She has already told the complainant that he needs to get a lawyer and plan on spending $$$$$ to take me to court, and still not get me shut down!!! (Talk about free legal advice !!!).

One of the County Commissioners is married to my 1st Cousin and is the one who tipped me off on his complaining to the Commission, which is just about his last option and is why I know about the Magistrate Judge deal. He dosen't have the funds to go after me, but I do have some means to defend myself as I'm still a member of the state chapter of PBA, and it's plausible that it's LE related as I still maintain my POST certification to carry interstate under the Patriot Act which requires I still requalify annually.

I really don't want to be a "bad neighbor" but he stated unequivically to the Chairman of the Board that he hasn't talked to me because he "Will not compromise". My legal counsel has advised that I not have communication with him, but continue to moniter the situation and respond only if "served".

The state law on "nuisance" appears to apply in verbage, but the case law on it considerably raises the bar on what constitutes an "inconvienence" beyond mere annoyance. (ie: the shooting and stray shots associated from parking lots of an all night "nude dancing bar" is the "standard" for inconvience and annoyance; not shots fired during the day at a range or associated with hunting,it also specifys things such as the blockage of roads and driveways by the patrons of the aforementioned place of business as said "inconviences". Things that can actually have a direct and discernable affect on public safety such as preventing access by fire and police.)

The state law actually dosen't set an audible decible limit, and the only other ordinances in effect in the state that might be construed as precedents set the distance at 200yds, well under the distance we are talking about.
His house is 0.3mi (1,500') from my range. My range is 285yds from my property line (855'). Not exactly "just outside his bedroom window" as he's insinuated.

Yes, his house is 200' (+/-) from a major highway and .25mi from a County Fire Dept. substation that makes approx. 60 calls a month (2 per day) with sirens blaring and straight exhaust blasting as they go by his house!

He hasn't complained about either. Just some distant gunshots. Some of which aren't even coming from my property !!!

 

[Geister]

I wouldn't take the guy seriously, GooseGestapo. Be prepared to defend yourself but otherwise, screw him; don't lose any sleep over it.

My neighbor runs his bulldozer on his place and I can assure you it's a lot louder than the gunshots your neighbor hears. The dozer doesn't bother me at all.

 

[rkh]

I'm curious... How did your neighbor manage to single you out for his affections? Can he see your range from his property?

 

[GooseGestapo]

RHK;
Because I shoot the most. (no, you can't see the range..... topography, and trees.... lots and lots of trees). But the tall, thick ones aren't on his property............

He has intimated that he is a bit jealous that:
1. I'm retired and have the time and freedom to shoot.
2. I'm "rich" enough (HIS WORDS) to afford the ammo to shoot.......... He does know I reload because the deputies know me and told him I reload. That, and I cast 95%+ of the bullets I shoot. I also recycle a lot of the bullets I fire and the lead I do get is usually free (tire weights, linotype,ect). I can shoot my 9mm and .38spl for less than the cost of equivalent quality .22rf. Brass is always free. Could have gotten 4-5 5gal buckets full at last match if I'd wanted it.... I actually picked out a bit of the .45acp though !!!

Kinda like a guy who works in a mill and plays golf once a month probably couldn't stand Tiger Woods living in his neighbor hood and having to hear him practicing 2-3hrs, 2-4 times a week with his driver on a 300yd "personal" driving range. That, and "HE's" not invited, too !!! And, of course he found a golf ball lying on his property.... and lives near a golf course..... So it "HAD" to have been Tiger's...............
Funny how he's bothered, but 3 other neighbors who live closer aren't! But then, one also has his own range, and another HAS been invited to use the range.
You know; we need landfills(refineries, mines, prisons.... insert what you like), just not in "MY" neighborhood.................