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Handgun vs. Coyote/Bobcat

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by raindog, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. Merle1

    Merle1 Member

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    then your will power is better than mine - I couldn't stand the screeching, plus the stupid questions to the bear.....
     
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  2. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    Even for a 65 lbs coyotes I wonder if a heavy 147gr bullets intended for adequate penetration on much larger humans ballistically is the best choice.
    My guess is that the 147 bullets will readily on a lateral hit pass through the animals expending much of its energy on what ever eventually stops the bullet. What is your experience with shooting coyotes with 9mm pistols?
    Have you recovered 9mm 147 gr bullets from coyotes.
     
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  3. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    There’s nothing magical about coyotes as you go north, nor does their size truly increase by way of being further from the equator, and they don’t suddenly start acting like packs of roving dire wolves.

    Behavior is based on food and water availability, proximity to humans, and availability of mates. Size is dictated mostly by availability of prey and food sources.

    A 9mm of any kind is enough punch to stop any coyote in North America.

    The FBI protocols for penetration testing are based on the need to stop a human, and don’t mean anything when talking about a fairly small animal. Even a 124 gr bullet is likely to pass through. But it doesn’t matter unless in a populated area. You will get a flatter trajectory and increased range with a 124 as a result.

    As far as a head or neck shot still scaring a coyote off if you miss, if you can scare them away that easily then I don’t see a point in killing one anyway.

    If they’ve become a nuisance animal around your property, then use a rifle.
     
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  4. Robbins290

    Robbins290 Member

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    Not so in maine. I have seen people tagging 80 pounders. One was an all black one that was over 90.

    http://georgesoutdoornews.bangordai...g/bad-news-maine-coyotes-are-becoming-wolves/
     
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  5. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    Friend of mine lives about 10 miles from me on 100 acres in the woods and is off-grid. She reported that she shot a wolf/coyote hybrid. Fish&Game guy shows up, looks it over, and tells her to bury it and shut the heck up about it.

    Seems the government doesn't want people to know that the wolves are branching out genetically and creating hybrids that are going to wreck havoc on everything else under them in the food chain. I saw a pic of it and it was around 80 lbs and brownish gray and white. Cool looking animal.

    coywolf2.JPG
     
  6. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    For some time now in canada the eastern grey wolf and coyotes have crossed with some of the offspring migrating into the USA. Also they are entering what used to be eastern grey habitat prior to the extinction of the wolves in the eastern usa. So wolf genes and an environment suitable for wolves is resulting in larger canines. And there is likely some domestic dog in the mix also. It is just nature finding a way towards balance that man disrupted.
     
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  7. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    There are certainly some variations in the same species, and this is evident in many animals. Look at whitetail deer in the lake states and a 200 lb buck is pretty common. Go west a few states and a 200 lb whitetail is a monster.

    Genetically speaking inland grizzlies, costal brown bear, and Kodiak bear are all the same species, and yet the locality, selection pressure, competition for mates, and abundance of nutrient rich fatty foods like fish can create a 1000 lb difference in adult males.

    My point is this, each ecosystem can create variations in the same species that are specific to the locale and are not dictated simply by degrees of latitude as was implied earlier. I wish that article was written a little differently. Proximity to humans and a supply of coastal sea food has undoubtedly lead to very calorie rich diets, and coyotes are known to function in small packs in many cases. Sounds like cross breeding in this specific case has lead to a hybrid coyote variant. Ok I can accept that, in this one particular case. And it may be happening in other places too.

    But I still assert that a 124 gr 9mm Luger is plenty for any coyote in North America. 80 and 90 lb coyotes are true monsters, but a 9mm of 124 or 147 hrs is sufficient for self defense against humans over twice that size.
     
  8. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    The size increase has been occurring over much of eastern USA. I have seen 40 lb coyotes in FL that is a little bit bigger than the average yote out west. The environment can well support wolf size animals because it did so in the past. The deer herds are also back. On their own coyotes would by mutation and natural selection would get larger with time. Having wolf genes entering is just giving natural selection more ammunition to work faster with.
    When one starts getting to 60 plus coyotes, relative to fighting off an attack by a pack, I would not feel confident no matter what handgun I had. I would want to be with someone else that was also armed. For shooting one going after livestock or fruit, the pistol is fine. Coyotes will strip an apple or pear tree.
    A historic account of a wolf attack. Could such happenings occur again as coyotes evolve into replacements for the extinct grey wolf. I wonder if that wolf pack had been active in eating interred bodies. Sometimes once predators get a taste for human flesh some think they will begin hunting humans.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
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  9. Robbins290

    Robbins290 Member

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    Even a 100 pound coyote. A good defense round will subdue them. I shot a 40 pound one with a 22 pistol at 20 yards. It worked very well. They are not thick skinned safari game.
     
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  10. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    Were you being attacked by several of them. Makes a big difference. I only know one person that was attacked by a wild canine. He killed, but it was an unnerving incident.
    In PA in the 1940's. Farm boys hear wild dogs running the local deer. grab their guns. He had a single barrel shotgun. He wounded a german shepherd like dog. It turned and attacked. He managed to reload the gun and he shot and killed it mid air as it was springing for him. He swore the eyes were green when he shot.
    A neighbor did kill a pit bull that was attacking his dog with a keltec P9. Pistols will work too. Especially when it is not a pack. A single coyote will not likely be attacking you.
     
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  11. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    So a bit of history. The US government along with countless local governments and land owners placed bounties on gray wolves. They were more or less wiped out in the eastern US, which is also true of cougars/lions. Lions used to range across the entire continent.

    As a result, large prey species like deer, that thrive in an edge rich environment like humans have created, have exploded in numbers. The timing of this change in predator and prey has left most citizens of the US under the impression that deer and other critters running around everywhere ready for harvest on a Sunday morning hunt is normal. It isn’t in many cases.

    When I was in college, the state of WI had over a million head of deer estimated. It was something like 5 times the normal carrying capacity of historic estimates. Cause? Predator elimination. Now wolves have been reintroduced, along with elk that were driven out also. The wolves are doing well because it was a buffet of venison.

    So assuming similar things have happened in the eastern US, I actually think this change in coyotes and their increased capacity to take larger game will help stabilize the prey species levels. They are now filling an ecological niche that wolves filled and a vacancy in that niche man created well over 100 years ago. It’s part of the fluctuations that are wildlife population dynamics.

    Only time will tell though.
    Sure, the gap left in the food chain due to wolf extirpation was bound to be filled by something due to prey number increases. Yotes are also great dumpster divers. I agree, hybridization serves to speed that process of alteration of a species all the faster.

    I don’t think we’ll see true evolution this quickly though, nor a true speciation. Professionals in the natural resource field (which I’m guessing you are) are apt to try and restore natural processes and populations of historically present species if politics can be addressed with local residents. Also, as populations in states like MN, WI, MI increase they will drive prey pops down and wolves will begin to spread out more in coming decades. I would estimate that wolves will begin rebounding in numbers further east, begin coming back down from Canada, and with assistance from man also. I think it more likely that we will see wolves begin to reclaim that large carnivore niche and competition will likely limit coyote alteration.

    Of course, this will take some time to hash out.

    And since we are totally off topic, I’ll end my thought with I still think a full size 9mm would be ideal for defense. Misses are likely. I want lots of ammo.

    Edit: I’m of the school of thought that when common animals show aggression towards humans, they are likely to do so again. Genes and learned behavior can increase that behavior. So you actually help the species by removing those individuals from the breeding population.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
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  12. Robbins290

    Robbins290 Member

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    i would say yes. That one, It saw me and started running right at me.

    And another one i shot in the face with a turkey load. It was 6 feet away by the time i swung in that general direction.

    Before that the Wife and i got chased by a pack in the field behind our old house while we were our riding the four wheeler. I didnt shoot at them at that time.


    after those encounters. I built a coyote rifle and started hunting them at night.
     
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  13. TikkaShooter

    TikkaShooter Member

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    Thanks, my friend as that was what I didn't want to know.. :rofl:

    I'll put pressure washing the bass boat on my short list.. LOL


    STC_1760.JPG

    Here's a bear enjoying chewing on my $15 bird feeder.. I hoped the plastic did internal damage; however, as he has been back, it didn't..



     
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  14. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    I am biologist, but not in game or fisheries management. My last paper prior to retiring was on PCB ratios in the sediments of Escambia Bay Florida. Started out as a an invertebrate neuroendocrinologist.
     
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  15. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    Heady stuff that. Glad to know ya.
     
  16. TikkaShooter

    TikkaShooter Member

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    Golly, that just got scary.. :)

    As a Ham operator, I've wondered what the power companies did with all old PCB filled pole transformers and I don't believe I want to know..
     
  17. Nuclear

    Nuclear Member

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    My best guess, as someone who used to work for an electric utility, they were replaced as resources allowed, prioritized by the highest bad press if it failed. Which means they were probably left in place until they started leaking or failed outright.

    Back to nearer the topic, I've seen DNA reports on large canines out east that were a mix of coyote, wolf and domestic dog. I'm glad there's only coyotes and feral dogs out here to crossbreed.
     
  18. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    There are a few mexican grey wolves in arizona. This was posted by a fellow in Arizona that is a member of my FB group Old White English Preservation Society. One picture is of his bulldog(From old texas family line of bulldogs) chasing what turned out to be a rare mexican grey wolf. On a later date mick killed that wolf. Wildlife biologists said it was the alpha of a small pack they had been observing. Second picture is a cub from that pack being cared for by his daughter until she could be sent to a proper facility for care and release. Arizona also has a few jaguar now days.

    mick.jpg mex grey wolf cary.jpg
     
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  19. JeeperCreeper

    JeeperCreeper Member

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    I know it's been answered, but 9mm would be very effective. Especially if you shoot it well since they are small and quick critters.

    Also might be a good excuse to get a .22mag revolver if you need a rationale for a new firearm.
     
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  20. WYO

    WYO Member

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    This is a terrible thing to do to guests and a terrible thing to do to bears. Management knows that it is attracting bears to be around its guests, and the bears, including cubs, are learning to get free handouts from people and to be around them. The old adage "A fed bear is a dead bear" generally turns out to be true. We had the same problem near the cabin this year with area residents with their hummingbird feeders and poor garbage management practices. The game and fish people stopped responding to nuisance bear calls on the basis that the locals were causing the problem.

    I can imagine the deposition of the grounds keeper after some guest gets mauled by a bear.
     
  21. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    Common problem. A florida version of it is feeding alligators to make them a tourist attraction.
     
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  22. BlueHeelerFl

    BlueHeelerFl Member

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    I wonder how the former urban dwellers that have moved to rural areas will react to the return of these predators?

    In 2016 I had to move my Mom from NE PA to come live with me due to numerous medical issues. While going through the various doctors and lab work needed before she could leave, I ran into many former city folk now living in the Poconos who were shocked that coyote and bears were roaming through apartment complexes and towns.

    I wonder how long it will be before these people start demanding all the dangerous wildlife be removed
     
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  23. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    I think it's going to be a real uphill battle. I work with several wildlife biologists on vegetation and habitat management projects. They forward me a lot of scientific papers, and papers on studies done about wildlife of all sorts.

    I can not recall one instance where the intentional reintroduction of a predator species or any wildlife species for that matter hasn't lead to opposition. Someone always stands to loose something, whether real $$$ or perceived change of life experience. I think people who move from urban or even heavily populated rural areas are in for a real shock. I've had this conversation with many new transplanted home owners in my area. They never seem to know what they are getting into.

    My home is within city limits but its a really small town, and it's plunked right in the middle of the forest. My house sits on about an acre of land. 2/3rds of it is left more or less wild, and I've got approximately 50 mature trees around my home. I have deer every day in my yard. I get turkeys, fox, occasionally coyotes, rabbits, birds of prey, crows, all kinds of dicky birds, I had a marmot camped out in the rocks literally 8 feet from my door, and summer of last year a skunk took up temporary residence in the same rocks. I named him Jimmy.

    I have been waiting for a lion to be sitting on my deck with the game species that inhabit my back yard. We used to have timber wolves, black bear, and grizzly bear hear also, but they were all killed off or pushed out by European settlers. I love that there are lions here, and their tracks remind me that I'm not necessarily the biggest critter in the woods here. Wolves and bear wander over from farther west, but the state game agency darts them and removes them, because the local populace and particularly the ranchers will not tolerate them. In fact they actively kill any predator they see. It bums me out.

    I would happily trade having to walk out my door armed every morning if it meant we had a better and more naturally balanced predator to prey ratio. Driving at night with this many deer is a real gamble. We need some more deer nibblers here.
     
  24. BlueHeelerFl

    BlueHeelerFl Member

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    I moved from NYC to PA in 2001 but I was not shocked to see the wildlife. I actually enjoyed seeing an occasional bear. They never bothered me, and I didn't go out of my way to bother them.

    And I did many encounters with deer on the road since PA has more deer than people.

    City folk were also apparently surprised to hear gun fire in the rural area they moved to.
     
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  25. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    Yep, some people adapt more readily. I transplanted from the city also. Animals make me happy.
     
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