Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Handling the gun while out of holster

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Alexey931, Jun 13, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Alexey931

    Alexey931 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    St.-Petersburg, Russia
    Hi,

    Can't find anything on the subject, probably using wrong terminology. I mean, how to carry a handgun while moving about in a presumably dangerous situation, the gun already in hand.
     
  2. JTQ

    JTQ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    5,315
    Location:
    NW Florida
  3. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    33,500
    Location:
    Central PA
  4. Archaic Weapon

    Archaic Weapon member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Messages:
    259
    Location:
    Near the River, Northern Louisiana
    Keep your finger off the trigger. At work, they told use to keep the gun, straightarmed, at waist height, so that when the cops show up, it looks like you have training, and makes you the good guy in those crucial first seconds.
     
  5. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    33,500
    Location:
    Central PA
    What kind of training does that make it look like you have?

    I mean to say, who's teaching that position? Seems better than the old Miami Vice routine of running around with it above your head pointed up in the air, but still has shortcomings.
     
  6. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    18,479
    Location:
    northern california
    I also used Position Sul for a long time, but it never felt very secure to me. Take a look at this explanation from the late Paul Gomez for some options.

    I've went to an elevated Position 3 during my last few working years
     
  7. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    18,479
    Location:
    northern california
    Maybe I'm not understanding your description of the position either, but it doesn't sound like any position I remember cops being trained to use.

    Are you referring to Low Ready?
     
  8. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    33,500
    Location:
    Central PA
    The Averted 2 seems quite naturally a progression from Sul, and what one would naturally gravitate toward if you're manipulating objects or people with your support hand while using Sul.

    The Averted 3 looks fine, with the caveats that 1) it seems it would be somewhat easy to relax into an unsafe muzzle direction if you needed to work that way for long, and 2) it is a departure from the general tendency to avoid elevating the muzzle above horizontal that most good range practice dictates.
     
  9. Archaic Weapon

    Archaic Weapon member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Messages:
    259
    Location:
    Near the River, Northern Louisiana
    Low Ready, yes. Description of a technique I've used almost never and never seen through shooting screens is difficult.
     
  10. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    18,479
    Location:
    northern california
    Yes, I use the Averted #2 when moving through people in a crowd. I got to try it with an MP-5 a while ago; works great

    Your are correct, it took me a while to get comfortable with it because of the old admonition that a BG could push your arms back into you. The warning only applies, if you don't/can't step back...and keep your hands clasped together. Your point 2) is very much a range protocol, Sul is much better for the range. I had to become much more muzzle aware when working with non-LEO

    In Advert 3, the gun is in about the same position your gun would be in when you perform a magazine change
     
  11. Alexey931

    Alexey931 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    St.-Petersburg, Russia
    SUL looks like an acronym; anybody care to expand it?
     
  12. Tinman357

    Tinman357 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    208
    Location:
    Puget Sound
    Sul.. Averted 3 and 2???? :confused: Wow, no compressed #3. How about the walter stance 47 with an inverted #2.5.

    :neener::neener::neener:
     
  13. dmazur

    dmazur Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,263
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    Sul is Portuguese for "South" (i.e. down).
     
  14. pockets

    pockets Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,134
    Location:
    in my own little world
    I prefer 'RWP-16oz' (Reclining With Pint) stance.
    And what is this? Now I have to learn Portuguese too?
    .
     
  15. Alexey931

    Alexey931 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    St.-Petersburg, Russia
    You've made a point, actually. Those fancy things are possible on the range, but as soon as push comes to shove... In the realm of auditory exclusion and tunnel vision -- one drops everything more complicated than the two-handed grip. Useful rules must be simpler and far more natural than that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  16. Sav .250

    Sav .250 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,334
    Location:
    Central Fla
    Trying to get educated after the fact (gun ownership) makes one wonder.
     
  17. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    33,500
    Location:
    Central PA
    If you watch the Paul Gomez video that 9mmepiphany posted, he explains why the Brazilians started using it, and they called it the simplest thing they could, basically "South" or "down."

    Every word comes from somewhere. People from all over the world face the same needs. There's no acceptable reason why only 'mercans get to name stuff. :rolleyes:

    And really, is a three letter word too complex for ya? Would you prefer to call it, "that-one-where-you-tilt-the-gun-down-while-bringing-it-close-to-your-chest-and-flatten-the-support-hand-under-the-gun..."? Even the Germans would balk at a noun that long!

    There's nothing terribly fancy, complicated, or unnatural about any of these positions. You'll fight like you train, though with less skill. If you train to retract the gun into one of these safety stances when you aren't aiming it at someone who might need to be shot, you can get into the habit of not endangering others needlessly. If this is your standard practice, you'll find that you do it when you aren't deliberately thinking about it -- like when you're scared, alarmed, deafened, etc.

    Pick a safety or "muzzle aversion" posture that seems natural to you, then do it a few thousand times on the range as part of your regular practice, and you'll do it without thinking when you NEED to.

    That's the whole point of training. But if you've convinced yourself that you'll "drop everything more complicated than the two-handed grip," why even ask the question?
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  18. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    33,500
    Location:
    Central PA
    I really don't even know what to say to this.

    One should know everything there is to know (or even 1/10th of it?) before one buys a gun?

    One should STOP trying to get educated once one owns a gun?

    The whole sentiment seems precisely backward! I'd rather train a new gun owner who knows NOTHING -- and knows they know nothing -- than someone who thinks their brand new Glock somehow grants them a PhD in gun handling and gun fighting. Where does one learn if they've got to earn all their wisdom before they own a gun?

    Trust me, when someone's been "trained" by Jean-Claude van Damme, Steven Segal, Bruce Willis, Sly Stallone, "Ahnuld," John Wayne, etc., up there on the big screen, it is IMMEDIATELY clear.
     
  19. JTQ

    JTQ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    5,315
    Location:
    NW Florida
    Excellent point, Sam1911. I would think it is much easier to learn gun handling skills when you have a gun to train with. Don't Gunsite and Thunder Ranch (and others) make you take their classes with a gun?;)

    Here is some stuff from Dave Spaulding. He has a series of "stuff" with Ruger.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oATKlh_UKR4&list=PL2079FFD4A567CD2C
     
  20. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    33,500
    Location:
    Central PA
    Spaulding has some good points about gun handling positions. What he doesn't get into there are the details that matter to the folks who came up with Sul, or the various other "muzzle aversion" positions that Paul Gomez showed in 9mmepiphany's video.

    That is to say, how to move in and around structures with a gun -- AND with "friendlies" or team mates that you NEVER want to cover with your muzzle. If you watch Spaulding's movements, at no point in his video could you safely stand in front of him. He'd either be pointing at your head, your chest, your stomach, groin, thighs, etc, with every one of his stances.

    Sul, the raised "3," or the exaggerated "2," all are intended that you can very deliberately and completely prevent sweeping a person who's very close to you while you have your gun drawn. If you move down a hall behind a LEO team partner, or your wife or child who you're trying to shepard to safety, and you use Spaulding's "3rd Eye" position, one trip or flinch would put a bullet right through their back.




    ...

    A note on the terms: We keep saying "2" and "3" and that seems to be confusing folks. What we're doing here is referencing the steps of the best-practice "4-count" draw stroke.

    Watch Mr. Gomez explain again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NKngkVXMGg You can start watching around 3:00 if you don't need the historic context.

    Basically a best, fastest, most secure gunfighting draw is broken down into 4 steps:
    1) Establish a firing grip on the gun, in the holster.

    2) Draw the gun straight up the side of the chest, while rotating it 90 deg. to point at the target. It stops beside the pectoral muscle, but not much forward of the front of the chest. From here you can fire from a solid "retention" position, including using the support hand to guard or fend off an attacker's advance and blows -- using your body index to roughly aim -- or you can continue to ...

    3) Gun is moved to the body centerline and support hand establishes grip on the gun as well. Still held horizontal, pointed at target. Gun may be fired from this position or continue to ...

    4) Extension to normal firing position. Gun fires as it reaches your comfortable extension point.

    (Developing in yourself the universal use of the 4-count draw stroke will make you faster on target and much more consistent, as well as building the fundamentals of a sound fighting-with-a-gun paradigm.)

    So these guard, or "muzzle aversion" positions are all variations on the 2nd or 3rd point of the normal draw stroke.

    "Sul" is just the 3-count position flattened against the chest to conserve room and to make the muzzle point at the floor, not your buddy's back, butt, or thighs.

    Averted 3, or raised 3, is just that same 3rd count modified to hold the angle of the gun above most likely danger areas.

    Averted 2 is simply the 2-count of the draw, but with the elbow lifted to rotate the muzzle back toward the holster. Said another way, Averted 2 is just stopping the normal draw stroke a split second before you rotate the gun toward the target -- or returning to that position from extension later on.

    I certainly understand that jargon can get folks confused but if we didn't choose a few terms to use for some of the common principles, it would lead to terrible complexity as we have to explain each detail every time we want to illustrate a point.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  21. CPLofMARINES

    CPLofMARINES Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    269
    Location:
    Shelby Twp., Mi
    ^^ Excellent points, one should always continue to
    Learn and train !

    Semper Fi
     
  22. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    18,479
    Location:
    northern california
    As Sam1911 was very clear in explaining, these terms are used to make it easier (fewer words) to explain and avoid confusion. Note how much easier it was to understand post #9 than post #4...granted, you do need a passing familiarity with the terms.

    But if you read terms that you are unfamiliar with, you can always ask for clarification...after all, this site is to introduce folks to the shooting community

    BTW: There is a compressed #3, but it tends to lead to malfunctions with semi-autos...it is a left over from the days when revolvers were more common

    Actually he hasn't. What you are buying into is mental self limitation of physical performance.

    Everything is "fancy" when you first learn it, practicing it is what makes it simpler (reactionary). If you take shortcuts by introducing speed (because we all know you need speed) before you have the motions down (because what you are doing is close enough), you presentation will be a lot less efficient (slower, fumbled). If you expect that you won't be able to perform them, you likely won't. But don't limit other people by telling them that they can't.

    Actually their business model is to offer rental guns for their classes...for folks who don't have a suitable gun or don't care to bring one.

    I've worked with clients who did not own a handgun. They wanted to learn what it was like before committing to a purchase...I usually provide a selection of different platforms. The benefit to them is that they have a better understanding of handgun fit before selecting their first gun

    This is key and is usually advocated by all the good trainers. Shooting technique is a progression (journey) and not a level you reach (goal). You should always be trying to improve.

    I have changed my grip twice in the last couple of years and have tried more than a few different techniques to improve my shooting. I worked with a 4 time Bianchi Cup winner who just tweaked his grip again to eek out that last fraction of an inch at 50 yards.

    I took a class recently that pushed me over a longstanding barrier. I just couldn't react to a turning target, move, draw and accurately place a shot on target in a second. My techniques just weren't holding up at speed. After a bit of tweaking, I was more accurate and able to place two shots on target in .7 sec

    It is just a matter of not accepting limitations and working on technique
     
  23. Alexey931

    Alexey931 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    St.-Petersburg, Russia
    It isn't easy to convince oneself of any such less than obvious thing. But if there's a grain of truth in the 'stressfire shooting' theory, one can easily make a slip in a once-in-a-lifetime situation where it's one slip too many. Due to [extensive] misguided training.
     
  24. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    33,500
    Location:
    Central PA
    Are you saying that training can CAUSE mistakes? What alternative do you propose? And, again, why ask the original question at all, if that's your belief?

    Of course you can make a slip (mistake). Training is designed to produce worn-in paths of action that reduce how much brain power you have to apply to solving the more mundane, "process" parts of the problem you face. The less you have to think about the mechanics of what you're doing, the more brain power you can apply to getting yourself out of harm's way.

    Am I misunderstanding what you're saying?
     
  25. Alexey931

    Alexey931 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    St.-Petersburg, Russia
    Yes, it can. I'm questioning fine points, not general principles, though. There's no substitute for training, IMHO: let me make that clear. Unfortunately, a particular school can be less than brutally relevant. Take a look at the Olympic style shooting: one hundred years of inbreeding made it incredibly refined -- and incredibly irrelevant.

    So practical shooting had to emerge to take care of excessive refinement.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page