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Happened to my brother - What would you do?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by HighPingSniper, May 5, 2004.

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  1. HighPingSniper

    HighPingSniper Member

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    My brother recently moved into a duplex. He discovered his neighbor was a bipolar skitzofrenic. Well, my brother tried to befriend the neighbor because he felt sorry for him. Soon, the guy totally flips his lid and tries to fight my brother for no reason at all.... Attempts to try to calm him down and make him go home were unsuccessful. My brother then tries to shut the front door when the nut case sticks his foot in the door so he can't close it. A struggle soon followed. After getting the upper hand on the guy, my brother grabs a hockey stick and cracks him in the head twice....blood pouring down the guy's face he continues to charge my brother. (i'm saying "my brother" alot) Then my brother runs into his bedroom and locks his door, grabbing his newly purchased Beretta CX4 Storm. The funny farm extra pounds on the door trying to break it down as my brother warns him he has a gun, and will shoot him if he comes in. His girlfriend calls the cops. Cops get there, and told him that if he would have shot him he would be in jail for murder. What kind of B.S. is this??
     
  2. Travis McGee

    Travis McGee Member

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    Mental illness is no joke, that's for sure. I feel sorry for what happened to your bro, and also for the crazy guy. It's no bed of roses for him, you can bet. I mean, it's not something he chose, or can control. I hope he's getting treatment, and meds can help. Very sad all around.....

    Matt
     
  3. sm

    sm member

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    Right now If I were the "brother" I would be seeking legal advice in the event charges get filed.

    I did a rotation once in a Mental health facility. I actually was allowed to talk to a person with 3 distinct personaites, I witnessed the person go back and forth between two of these personalities. I mean voice and physical changes. Since I was sitting 3 ft from him...I'm real happy he did not go into the 3rd personality...err...that was the one that caused him to shoot 2 people with a.44. He had disarmed someone of their gun. [ I can't say more]

    I was given the go ahead since the Dr and Nurse had already been attacked by said patient, even slightly sedated. So being as I was a student I just walked in and got this fellow to follow me to an area where one -way mirrors were - Docs and the security guards behind- to do an assessment.

    I wanted to see if me in jeans, tennis shoes, oxford shirt could get him to open up. I was a student so I removed my ID badge and well I was not dressed as nice as some pts. I even rec'd the ok to break the rules and smoke inside...figure if he saw me break the rules ...I was not "one of them" ( medical staff). I had to use a book of matches, and I emptied my pockets of everything. Not even a pen, all I had was matches and cigarettes...even the concern over my glasses was expressed...I kept them on...he had seen me earlier in a "quiet " room and didn't want to raise suspicion...he thought I was a pt, probably still does. He asked why I had been put in "quiet room". I made something up. I used the assement skills I was learning, but it is wise to sometimes "listen" and "wing it".

    I was to run like hell if he got up to attack me...the lamp on the table I made sure was closer to me than him. I didn't even have my keys to open doors.[ locked unit but students had key as did staff] Big security risk for me, security and medical staff consented.

    This person was young, early twenties with a new baby. Never a history of violence. Schiz hit him one day and progressed rapidly. The small town doc missed the Dx. At 5' 9" and 135 # well...I saw him take on the Doc and 2 security guards and then the straight jacket didn't prevent the nurse from getting hurt. Reminded me of a person on PCP. The strength he had when violent was incredible.

    I'm 6' 170# and all I had was my brain, feet and a lamp...I was very aware of every move , every breath he took.

    I was facinated and curious. I had taken psych years before and read up on various things. I was now in another psych class with a psych rotation . What I saw ...well a textbook is only a textbook.

    He had no recollection of the incident of why he was there.[ "Normal" state] Pesonality #1 described "some details" of incident. Personality #2 provided not a thing, he was a different person I mean a totally different person.

    Later I observed the person behind one way mirrors, and viewed other tapes of personality #3. This voice was the "Beast", it really took a toll on that poor soul's mind and body. This is the personality that resulted in violence. I was fine until I went outside. I started shaking so bad - my instructor had to hold me. I could not stop shaking. She had seen something similar in Med school...she understood. I really understood why she was so concerned for my safety as was the Docs, nurses and security days before in my assessment and interview. [shudder to think about it]

    Education is a great tool. I highly recommend folks read up on various mental health problems, the meds, the whole thing. Many LEO, learn this, Nurses and Dr.'s learn this. Well in the real world it does not hurt to be knowledgeable and recognize some signs.

    It may come in handy with a friends parent with early signs of Altheimer's. A neighbor going through depression, off meds, or the street punk high on Dope.

    Never make eye contact - never!

    Always Always watch hands. Read body language, besides watching hands watch the feet.

    Your "brother"-

    I would have educated myself about neighbor's condition and been aware of signs and what to do - or not do ( no eye contact).

    On meds these folks do function very well in society. Familial support and support groups help as well.

    Look it up, but the short version is as time goes on the meds may need to be changed...increase or decreased...because of the way the brain /body metabolises the meds.

    Regular observations with a pt baseline is needed to keep tabs.

    One never knows the where of when of an encounter - CRSam

    Nor does one know the mental state of a person either.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2004
  4. Jim March

    Jim March Member

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    I spent a month with a lady with multiple personalities. A LOT of 'em. 23 major ones and "fragments" beyond count.

    This is REAL, folks. It's always caused by horrific child abuse...the "fragmentation" is an extreme survival response. And there's always one sub-personality capable of really serious violence levels, a "protector" type...but it usually only kicks in when really needed, and is usually somewhat rational. Hence multiple personality cases are not usually dangerous.

    It's not the same as schizophrenia, although the two illnesses can sometimes be found in the same person. MAN, that would be a freakshow indeed :(.

    As to HighPingSniper's brother: a guy that completely nuts is a threat to one's life. Deadly force, at least in my non-professional opinion, may be supportable. The standard on use of deadly force in MY state (California) is "are you in fear of losing your life or suffering great bodily injury" and by that standard, I believe deadly force could be justified. (Yes, CA's deadly force standards are surprisingly sane, they're the same as the Texas daylight standards.)

    With THAT said, all gun owners should know the deadly force rules of their state. Including HighPingSniper's brother.
     
  5. atek3

    atek3 Member

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    Unless you are in britain, that cop was straight up wrong. Someone attacks you in your own home, you command them to leave with a firearm and they continue attacking, they are dead meat. (just don't fire at them when they are on the ground :uhoh: )

    atek3
     
  6. duckfoot

    duckfoot member

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    This is not good for his brother, as far as the cops are involved. He would have been arrested for murder, if he had killed that fella, and charged with something less more than likely reguardless of weather it was a good shoot or not. Then "if" getting off on the criminal charges, then the civil suit would be filed by dead guy's family for wrongful death and weather he would win or loose he still owes his stuffed suits a ton of fees.

    If you ever have to drop the hammer on a attacker, you are going to have problems for a lone time.
     
  7. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

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    Unfortunately, duckfoot is right. Even if you were defending yourself, the cops seem bent on arresting people for attempted murder no matter what.

    Best advice....

    1. Don't take legal advice from LEO's. Most don't know the laws well enough to understand them. They're just around to arrest people, not make judgements.

    2. Have your brother get a lawyer RIGHT NOW. Even if nothing happens, the lawyer can advise him on what to do in the future about the situation. And they ARE paid to know the law.

    Best of luck to him...
     
  8. mete

    mete Member

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    All too often we see cases where a schizophrenic ,while normal with proper medication, stop taking the meds and become very violent.
     
  9. ThreadKiller

    ThreadKiller Member

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    I'd move.

    Tim
     
  10. hillbilly

    hillbilly Member

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    1) Your brother needs to contact an attorney right now.

    Like someone else said, don't ever get your legal advice from cops. Some do-gooder idiot or maybe even the attacker's family could file suit against him.

    2) Your brother needs to get a new duplex, right now.

    Living that close to a real schizo is not a good idea.

    This particular schizo has already shown his potential for violence. Does your brother think this guy is going to magically get better one day?

    Your brother is renting. Other rental properties are available somewhere else.


    hillbilly
     
  11. FPrice

    FPrice Member

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    sm...

    "Never make eye contact - never!"

    At the risk of getting off-thread, can you briefly explain why? Knowing why may help me follow this advice.

    Thanks.
     
  12. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    FPrice, depending on the diagnosis and person, the afflicted person may see this as a threat or challenge. I learned this the hard way.

    I work for these individuals, usually the jails allow their medications. This day I had apparently arrived BEFORE "pill hour." As I was sitting down to go over the case with my client, KAPOW, as the kids say "it was on.":uhoh:

    Got him in a wrist wrap (by sheer stupid "luck" he grabbed my wrist) and used my foot to bang on the door with all of my 195 lbs. (they lock you in the conference room). Luckily the conference room I was in facing the central control room. The C.O. in there called out for help and it came.

    It was like fighting three people even though I had 30 pounds on him and work out regularly. To this day whenever I meet those with the "far away look" in their eyes, I get that sinking feeling in my stomach. Of course, not all individuals so afflicted are prone to violence (some just sit there and cry).

    Your brother should seek legal counsel without delay.
     
  13. MBG

    MBG Member

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    Advice for your brother (some from personal experience).

    1. Gain professional legal advice. About the incident, about the cop’s ‘advice’ and about the order of restraint your brother will be filing shortly.
    2. Have said professional legal advice talk to the police officer’s superior, about his advice dispensed, and the actual local laws on self defense and the castle doctrine.
    3. Hire realtor and moving company, in that order. The crazy guy next door might not be your brother’s fault, but it’s his problem. Best way to solve it is to not be there. Sucks to be the one the schizophrenic hears voices about.

    Marty
     
  14. MBG

    MBG Member

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    2X Tap
     
  15. RustyHammer

    RustyHammer Member

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    Time to move!
     
  16. sturmruger

    sturmruger Member

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    If you brother would have shot this loony I think it would be safe to say the cops would have charged him with something. The bottom line is if the DA would decide to prosecute him. If i were you I would have him read some of Massad Ayoob's books. The one I remember is In the Gravest Extreme it is an excellant book that talks about how to handle interactions with the police in the aftermath of having to defend yourself with deadly force.

    The police have a job to do, and it isn't just picking up the body. Their job is to find any dirt they can to charge you with a crime. From a cops perspective most shooting are the result of illegal activity and they usually assume that something sinister was going on. If you brother can't move he needs to get educated fast in case this guy comes back for seconds. One wrong word to the police could end up with him getting prosecuted for a murder when all he was doing was degending his life.
     
  17. sm

    sm member

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    FPrice

    El Tejon summed it up. Eye 'contact is Percieved as a challenge or threat.

    KAPOW -"it's on is correct as well.

    My earlier experience mirrors what EL Tejon and others have described. I witnessed other "behavioral problems" as well.

    We had automatic locks on the doors in the facility I was in. Imagine a dead end hallway, with two chairs a lamp table and lamp in between. One wall had a larger one-way mirror about 6' long. Double heavy duty locked doors at the other end. Looked like a waiting room without magazines ( these had been removed for my "assessment"...well there went one plan I had") Lamp was bolted to table which was bolted to floor...okay I had a lamp shade. Everthing else including chairs were bolted down.

    I even had to remove my belt.

    Sure happy we didn't "Let's Rodeo".

    El T and the folks here on THR that are DRs, Ns, Professionals can better advise.

    I decided to change studies in school, I do not regret the studies, or experiences I had. I still use the lessons learned.

    This was a Private Facility. Other Students went to Hospitals, County or State Facilities. I and others chose the Private Facility because of instructor and the more hands on experience. [ what an understatement].

    A lot of kids ( another reason I wanted to go). Many kids had been traumatized by parents, step parents and relatives. Drug/Alcohol Abuse provided many patients.

    Ages ran from First grade on up to Geriatric.

    Multiple Personalities was a real eye opener. I had just been "buzzed" into the Teen Unit. From out of nowhere a 13 yr old girl came at me like a Train, Head down and ready to run me over. Not wanting to step aside and let her hit the metal door head on, I decided to try and "bear hug" and break momentum.

    We both flew through the metal doors and I held on to her as tight as could. My legs wrapped around hers to keep from being kicked, my back being hit upon. She couldn't bite me- because I had her held to low on her body.

    3 folks came to help, IIRC Thorazin was pushed while I held her. It took every bit of 10 l-o-n-g minutes for her quit fighting , wrestling. I was plum wore out. I bet this teenage girl at 5' or so didn't weigh 80 - 85 #.

    When she finally went limp, I got up, picked her like one would a child most of her onto my shoulder. Carried her to where she needed to be.

    Voices told her that guy [me] was her Step Dad. She just associated me with him. I look nothing like her Step Dad. Doc said she had seen me in the Hallway and had been planning on her attack.

    Yeah - I recommend folks read up. Awareness is good, having some education, and knowledge of local reg's is great too. All kinds of folks out there. Never know the why - be observant.
     
  18. atk

    atk Member

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    I have personal experience with dealing with several people afflicted by mild manic-depression. It's not easy.

    What I write is from my limited understanding of the disease, and my personal experience with people afflicted by it. Your mileage may vary.

    Depression seems easier to deal with - you just need to be there for the person. Let them talk. Encourage them to keep going. If you're supporting the person, don't ever give up on them. By doing whatever you can, and making sure the person knows you'll be there, and by feeling completely impotent, you help.

    When manic, a person loses much of their judgement. They may become promiscuous, violent, or anything. It's impossible to tell what will set them off when already manic, or even what will incite mania (some manic depressives can cycle in minutes, some cycle over years, others are anywhere in between).

    I've had to spend hours talking to someone, manic at the time, completely irrational and running on emotion. I had to pry at this person's emotions, carefully phrase my words, acknowledge feelings, prevent the conversation from going on tangents, and just about become completely exhausted, to convince them that a decision would work out for the worse.


    Once set off, the common description is one's "motor is running". Once the motor starts, it seems to feed itself, revving faster and faster, pushing the mania faster and faster, further and further, as though trying to break, so that the individual can rest. Mania can last from seconds to weeks.

    When manic, people will generally start many projects and never finish them. For example, one might wake up at 1:00 a.m., and start painting a room. At 2:00 (with open paint cans, and one half painted wall), they might decide to make breakfast. At 2:15, they may decide to wash the car. At 2:25, vacuum. At 2:50, watch a movie.


    If you meet someone who is manic depressive, the first thing to realize (and this sounds rather harsh) is that it's not your problem. It is their problem - you're just a witness to it, and you may become support.

    The next thing to do is decide if you want to support this person. Remember, that means you need an unbreakable bond (even if the person tries to seriously injure you, or themselves, you can't give up), and that it will be a lifetime commitment. If they're not family, and not a close friend, and they're not your patient, then stay away. The person is a danger to themselves and possibly to those around them, so you need to be sure you're willing to get into a really bad spot, for a very long time (years) to help get this person out - if they can be helped at all.

    Third, you cannot be the only support for this person. Other family members, friends, etc. must help. No matter how strong you are, you're not strong enough. It may take years, but you will become worn out. Other people need to be around so that you can take breaks and recharge. And you need to be around so they can take breaks and recharge.

    Fourth, the person needs ongoing medical assistance from a qualified psychiatrist (a psychologist can't prescribe medications). There are many medications that can help, but people may develop a tolerance to them, making them ineffective. Also, not all medications work with all people, so some trial and error is necessary (which can be extremely discouraging for the sick person - but you can't give up! You must remain optimistic that a cure is out there!). Also, the medication may help, but it may not be sufficient to solve the problem.


    Finally, I recommend reading Call Me Anna. It made it a little easier for me to understand what was going on.
     
  19. MaceWindu

    MaceWindu Member

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    Huh?

    A great deal of you are saying that this person would be in deep if the hammer would have dropped?!

    You have some psycho chasing you and physical force obviously was not working (see hockey stick, blood).

    A person with mental disorders has the adrenlin working overtime in many cases giving them the strength of 2 or 3 people. He obviously was in a great deal of fear...and danger.

    What should he have done if Joe Schmoe was to enter the room? No sarcasm intended here, but a legit question:

    #1: Get the $@%# beat out of him

    #2: Cover himself with his arms and legs and hopes the guy does not hurt him too bad?

    #3: He was trapped in a room, so retreat at that point was not gonna happen...?!

    I would really like to know what to do?

    Now I have kids, some nut job enters the house and is in hot pursuit I HAVE no choice: he gets a chest full of lead from the M1014

    I will take my chances in court, rather than attend a funeral for my wife or my child :fire:


    MaceWindu
     
  20. MaceWindu

    MaceWindu Member

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    Oh yeah...

    When the cops show up they get one statement:

    "I was in fear for my life and the life of my wife and Kids, I would like to speak to my lawyer NOW..."


    MaceWindu
     
  21. Quartus

    Quartus Member

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    That's good advice. So's this:






    I've been around a few schizos. The closest I've come to violence was getting suddenly kissed on the cheek. :D She had rolled her car, and I was the guy who stopped and rendered aid, after the three cars in front of me drove right on by. :fire: Stopped in at the E-room later to check on her. That's when she tagged me. Classic big red lipstick smackeroo. I didn't realize I'd been branded, and went on my way to church like that. :D


    The other encounters were scary enough to make me decide to follow one rule when dealing with mentally ill persons - distance, lots of distance, is my friend. I'll call for help if needed, but I'm not going to try to play therapist. I'll leave that for the pros. I doubt if I can help anyway - likely do more harm than good.
     
  22. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

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    The cop was mistaken. Cops are not lawyers. The only basis for whether it would have been a justified shooting for self defense would be if an ordinary and reasonable person would have felt in immanent threat to life or limb. Certainly, any ordinary person would have under the circumstances you describe. If you attempted to barricade yourself in the house, and failed, and then attempted to barricade yourself in a bedroom, and that too failed, no jury would convict you of murder if you shot the man after breaking through two barricades. Your brother acted more than reasonably in the situation, and the cop should have praised him for his extraordinary restraint, when he had evey right under the law to shoot the madman at the front door, and perhaps earlier. Once you leave, and the wild attacker follows you to continue the violent assault, you are within your rights to shoot in most states, even those that require retreat. Retreat means that you must attempt a retreat. If persued, however, you have only a limited capacity to run away, and the law does not require you to allow a madman to violently attack you, and perhaps cause serious bodily injury.
     
  23. 444

    444 Member

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    All this sounds like a normal work day in the life of a paramedic.
    Only in addition to being off their medicaitons the patients are also high and drunk. And, they arn't locked up.
     
  24. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    Cops are not Lawyers is an understatement ... most of them barely know squat about the law so I'd ignore them.

    Chances are if he'd have shot the guy he would be in a cell and charged with murder (which is different then being in jail for murder) but if the facts are as you say then he'd be released in short order and probably have charges dropped.


    Here's the Mississippi code regarding "Justifiable Homicide"


    Source


    Don't let fear of some flatfoot's misinterpretation of the law stop you from defending your self ... it would suck to go to jail, but better jail then the morgue.


    Thats good to know ... we have a Paranoid Schizophrenic living next door ... mostly he just rants and raves about things and has loud arguments/fights with people who aren't there and talks to airplanes but he seems to be non confrontational.
     
  25. HighPingSniper

    HighPingSniper Member

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    Apparently, I can't spell schizophrenic.

    Doesn't matter. And yes, the facts are as I say.
     
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