Hate Crimes...

[crazed_ss]

Ya think???



Then you won't mind kindly addressing all the "isolated incidents" pointed out to you thus far?



1. Then you ain't looking too hard.

2. It really doesn't matter, as "hate" crime legislation is still a stupid idea, designed purely to be devisive and to place certain people in "protected" status. My initial contention was, and remains, that ANY crime of violence committed against another is a "hate" crime.

Look, I am not arguing that a black man should be punished any more harshly for a "hate" crime any more than I am arguing that a caucasian man should be punished any more harshly for a "hate" crime. What I am pointing out is the hypocritical nature of either one, when a disparity has been clearly and repeatedly pointed out. Even should complete parity be reached (and it has not, as you have repeatedly been shown) it is still a stupid idea, planted to foment divisiveness and to further widen a gap that we all need to be closing.

No on here has posted any hard data that backs up the assertion that minorities arent charged with hate crimes. I have posted data that clearly shows they are. No one has posted any data that shows that minorities are routinely being shown leniency in hate crime prosecution whearas whites arent.

Sure you can probably find a number of incidents where a minority should have been charged with a hate crime and wasnt, but I bet I could find just as many incidents where a white person should have been charged and wasnt.

I'd like to see data from a reputable source that shows hate crime laws are routinely being applied unfairly.. I havent seen that.

 

[crazed_ss]

And if the law were applied fairly, and the media covered the news instead of trying to form public opinion with it's ever-present agenda, I think a lot us us would have a lot less problem with it.

Your quote--
"I'd like to clarify.. I dont think any white on black or black on white crime is a hate crime. For example, if a white mugger robs a black guy and uses the N-word in the commision of the crime, then I wouldnt consider that a hate crime.

A hate crime would be a group of Neo-Nazis who went out targeting minorities for assaults or maybe a black rapist that only went after white women.. in those cases, I think the criminals should get extra punishment.."
End quote.

Now, as a long-time LA resident (no longer, Thank God), I don't recall the pukes beating Reginald Denny's head in getting charged with a hate crime...matter of fact, I don't recall hearing much about that at all. Do you?

Maybe you didnt hear much about the Denny incident, but here in CA it was played over and over again on TV. I even remember Dateline or 20/20 devoting half of a show to talk to Mr Denny and let him tell his story.

The guys who beat him probably should have been charged with a hate crime, but so should the cops who beat Rodney King. The Denny incident really doesnt prove anything either way.

 

[Firethorn]

Hate shouldn't be a seperate crime. It should, at the most, be considered an aggravating factor like pre-meditation.

I'll agree, the statistics show a tendancy for blacks to be charged with hate crimes at a higher rate than whites. They're porportionally less of the population, so they still have lower a lower absolute number.

On the other hand, Blacks are arrested and convicted at MUCH higher rates for ordinary crimes as well.

Yes, I've seen some racist blacks. Just because somebody is a 'minority' doesn't mean that they aren't racist/sexist/homophobic.

 

[AF_INT1N0]

Maybe you didnt hear much about the Denny incident, but here in CA it was played over and over again on TV. I even remember Dateline or 20/20 devoting half of a show to talk to Mr Denny and let him tell his story.

The guys who beat him probably should have been charged with a hate crime, but so should the cops who beat Rodney King. The Denny incident really doesnt prove anything either way.

Except Rodney King was high on Crack( or was it coke ) and had just finished a high speed chase, and was resisting arrest, and got beat up by the cops....

Whereas Reginald(sp) Denny was a white Truck driver, who got assaulted for being a white man driving a truck in LA....

You're right!! DAMN!! How could I have not seen the similarities!!! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: .

 

[gc70]

No on here has posted any hard data that backs up the assertion that minorities arent charged with hate crimes. I have posted data that clearly shows they are. No one has posted any data that shows that minorities are routinely being shown leniency in hate crime prosecution whearas whites arent.

Sure you can probably find a number of incidents where a minority should have been charged with a hate crime and wasnt, but I bet I could find just as many incidents where a white person should have been charged and wasnt.

I'd like to see data from a reputable source that shows hate crime laws are routinely being applied unfairly.. I havent seen that.

Since you know that uncharged criminal activity is not a reportable category, you also neatly deny the validity of anecdotal evidence. Nevertheless, I offer this recent example of how a minority gets a pass on being charged with a "hate crime."

Just a Joke in Alabama:

Just yesterday the WSFA 12 Sports team publicly recognized Demond Washington for a job well done, a plaque honoring Washington's 'Athlete of the Week' honors last fall.

Today, Washington is getting a different kind of notice, one the Tallassee city school superintendent believes the football player regrets.

We're told Washington spoke into the P-A system in the school and allegedly said, 'I hate white people and I'm going to kill them all!'

As of tonight, Demond Washington won't face any legal charges because Tallassee Police and school officials believe Washington didn't mean what he said. A case of immaturity perhaps.

Now look at the contrast:

Just a Prank in Georgia:

Douglas County police have arrested two white teenagers and charged them with making terroristic threats -- a felony -- in connection with racist graffiti found at the home of a black family in the neighborhood where the two lived.

The boys -- ages 15 and 16 -- are being held without bond in a regional youth detention center. Copeland says the charge carries a maximum of up to two years at a youth development campus.

He says since the two are juveniles, it will be up to the prosecutor to decide whether they will charged under the state's "hate crime" statute.

Copeland says the two boys -- who are white -- attend the same high school as the couple's children. He says the teenagers told investigators they painted the graffiti on a a well house in the couple's yard as "a prank." But Copeland says the two are charged with terrorist threats because of the nature of the graffiti.

 

[Meplat]

Yes, but not nearly as unpleasant -- there is, as a rule, not much suffering in madness and if six months in solitary won't do that, then nothing will.

Need to read also the part "no bread, no water". Starvation isn't all that pleasant.

 

[Meplat]

Sure you can probably find a number of incidents where a minority should have been charged with a hate crime and wasnt, but I bet I could find just as many incidents where a white person should have been charged and wasnt.

Fair enough. Show me a few like this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/808363/posts

I'm waiting.

 

[crazed_ss]

Except Rodney King was high on Crack( or was it coke ) and had just finished a high speed chase, and was resisting arrest, and got beat up by the cops....

Whereas Reginald(sp) Denny was a white Truck driver, who got assaulted for being a white man driving a truck in LA....

You're right!! DAMN!! How could I have not seen the similarities!!! :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: .

Yea.. they both got beat up unjustly due to their race. Both trials were miscarraiges of justice. Pretty similar to me.

 

[crazed_ss]

Since you know that uncharged criminal activity is not a reportable category, you also neatly deny the validity of anecdotal evidence. Nevertheless, I offer this recent example of how a minority gets a pass on being charged with a "hate crime."
Now look at the contrast:

Once again.. anectdotal evidence like you said.. Doesnt prove anything one way or another. FBI stats from multiple years clearly show that a good number of blacks are charged with hate crimes. I dont see any evidence of a concerted effort to give a "pass" when it comes to hate crimes.

I guess we can agree to disagree though. I knew I shouldnt get involved in political threads here.
I dont think like typical gun owners so my posts probably go against the grain here. I should probably stick to technical questions about firearms

 

[orionengnr]

Maybe you didnt hear much about the Denny incident, but here in CA it was played over and over again on TV. I even remember Dateline or 20/20 devoting half of a show to talk to Mr Denny and let him tell his story.

I think you misunderstood me; you definitely misquoted me. I lived in the LA area at the time and for almost ten years thereafter. I never said that you didn't hear about the Denny incident; what was lost was the outcome of the case. And as for the "similarities" you cite:

King: high on drugs
Denny: clean and sober

King: breaking multiple laws
Denny: not guilty of anything except being white

King: collected millions
Denny: collected zip


You say that no-one has given examples, yet you failed to address the earlier poster's Texas incident, which I reposted. And where were the hate crimes in the Denny case again? Oh yeah, that never happened.
And did you even read the post about Ole Miss?

Oh yeah, anecdotal evidence means nothing, especially when none of these anecdotes make it into the national database...

 

[Rockstar]

No on here has posted any hard data that backs up the assertion that minorities arent charged with hate crimes. I have posted data that clearly shows they are. No one has posted any data that shows that minorities are routinely being shown leniency in hate crime prosecution whearas whites arent.

Sure you can probably find a number of incidents where a minority should have been charged with a hate crime and wasnt, but I bet I could find just as many incidents where a white person should have been charged and wasnt.

I'd like to see data from a reputable source that shows hate crime laws are routinely being applied unfairly.. I havent seen that.

How about doing a little more research as to who's committing most inter-racial crimes, rather than how the punishment's doled out? White-on-black crime is so rare, that a coupla white kids' beating up a black kid will make CNN for three days. Black-on-every-other-race crime is so common, that it doesn't rate a blurb on the local news.

Blacks are overwhelmingly the perpetrators, not the victims, in inter-racial crimes. Check it out. It's a fact.

 

[Working Man]

Not my stats.. they're FBI stats..

The fact remains.
More hate crimes are committed by whites. For the reason, you will see more stories about hate crimes committed by whites on the evening news.

Funny you should say that... in my youth I knew quite a few "Bangers" that
are not white that specifically said they would focus the muggings/robberies on
white people ("more money" financial hate, "sticking it to the man"). Those crimes
would be prosecuted/handled as just that muggings/robberies if they were caught.

Now backing away from the race portion of the "Hate Crime" debate.....
Is Rape a hate crime? Most offenders stay within one gender. If a man only
rapes/targets women then obviously he is gender bias and it should be a hate
crime. Now if he goes after men and women then it's not a hate crime.......
..... unless he only goes after those 18 years old and above, then he is targeting
a certain age range.

That being said, a pedophiles should be convicted of a hate crime as he/she
does not prey on adults only kids (specific group).

These are all select groups singled out because of something that
differentiates them from others, so they are hate crimes.

Oh, I forgot that's not how/why the law was created or views these cases.

 

[griz]

No on here has posted any hard data that backs up the assertion that minorities arent charged with hate crimes. I have posted data that clearly shows they are.

Coming in late here but I have a question about that data. They appear to be reports of crimes, not charges. Do you have any data that shows minorities are ever charged with hate crimes?

As an aside, reading the FBI reports taught me that you can have a hate crime with multiple bias. So apparently if you rob somebody because they are disabled and of a differnt race and a different religion you are three times worse than a profit motivated robber. Or maybe the victim is three times more offended, I still don't understand the logic.

 

[gc70]

Once again.. anectdotal evidence like you said.. Doesnt prove anything one way or another. FBI stats from multiple years clearly show that a good number of blacks are charged with hate crimes. I dont see any evidence of a concerted effort to give a "pass" when it comes to hate crimes.

Nobody denies that people commit racially motivated crimes. At issue is your absolute reliance on official statistics versus the widely-held belief, supported by a large amount of anecdotal evidence, that the application of hate crime laws is racially biased.

An analogous situation would be the number of blacks killed in the South in the late 1800s and early 1900s. Officially, based on records of charges or convictions, very few blacks were killed by whites - except in self-defense. Everyone except hardcore white racists recognize that those old official records are understated, simply because whites were infrequently charged and even more rarely convicted for killing blacks.

I don't know how many so-called hate crimes are commited by members of a given race, but I can deduce from a multitude of news reports that hate crime laws are applied unevenly and the resulting official statistics are skewed. The only real question is whether the statistics are skewed a little or a lot.

I agree that there is no concerted effort (in the form of a coordinated scheme) to give minorities a "pass" on hate crime laws. But it appears that minorities often do get a break, whether it is due to a PC reaction, authorities trying to avoid the unpleasantness of media coverage, or even a police chief who is wise enough to not bring silly charges against the local high school's star football player.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

Yea.. they both got beat up unjustly due to their race. Both trials were miscarraiges of justice. Pretty similar to me.

Hmmm. If the beating was administered due to race, why were "Pooh" Allen and Freddie Helms spared?

Who were they, you ask? They were Rodney King's passengers. The ones you never heard much about, because they didn't resist arrest. They obeyed orders and the police did not have to forcibly subdue them.

If race was the motivation for beating King, why were Allen and Helms not beaten as well?

 

[crazed_ss]

Anyone see a trend..

in the incidents here?
http://www.tolerance.org/maps/hate/incidents.jsp

Maybe the reason you dont here about so many black hate crimes is because they dont happen as often? News reports and crime data would back this up. Now I guess if you're wearing a tin-foil hate you can claim the criminal justice system is scared of prosecuting minorties for hate crimes.

Personally I think that's completely ridiculous. If there's one thing the criminal justice system does well, it's prosecute minorities. A black person who purposely goes out and targets whites is asking for it.. big time.

Just a difference of opinion I guess...

 

[Biker]

Opinions vary.
Biker

 

[DarthBubba]

All Violent crimes against people are hate crimes pure and simple.
No one is worthy of more or less protection of the law, EX---( If two people were standing next to each other and they were both brutally beaten and mugged by the same man in a surprise attack one a normal heterosexual Caucasian male and one a gay minority individual is the minority entitled to a more severe punishment for the perpetrator of the same crime)? I say no, crime is crime and if the crime is the same the punishment for committing it should be the same.

N o more segmentation we are all the same under the law.

DarthBubba :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Rockstar]

More hate crimes are committed by blacks than against blacks. That's the Elephant in the Room that nobody sees or talks about.

 

[gc70]

Okay, let's look at the statistics.

Maybe the reason you dont here about so many black hate crimes is because they dont happen as often?

Taking the statistics at face value, you are absolutely correct - blacks do not commit as many hate crimes as whites. In the FBI hate crimes data previously cited, "Table 4. - Number of Known Offenders by Race, 1995" shows that whites represent 59.2% of the offenders and blacks 26.7%.

However, the 2000 Census by Race shows that whites represent 75.1% of the population and blacks 12.3%. Compared to whites, blacks represent a smaller part of the population but a larger portion of the hate crime offenders. Therefore, the data indicates that blacks commit hate crimes at nearly 3 times the rate of whites.

There's another statistical proof - blacks are charged with hate crimes at a much higher rate than whites. Even discounting the numbers by half on the assumption that blacks are abused by the criminal justice system, blacks still commit hate crimes at a higher rate than whites.

Believe the statistics if you wish. I reject the idea that such a disproportionate portion of blacks are racists seething with white-hate. Instead, I see a major problem with the concept of criminalizing something as subjective as intent or motivation.

 

[crazed_ss]

All Violent crimes against people are hate crimes pure and simple.
No one is worthy of more or less protection of the law, EX---( If two people were standing next to each other and they were both brutally beaten and mugged by the same man in a surprise attack one a normal heterosexual Caucasian male and one a gay minority individual is the minority entitled to a more severe punishment for the perpetrator of the same crime)? I say no, crime is crime and if the crime is the same the punishment for committing it should be the same.

N o more segmentation we are all the same under the law.

DarthBubba :banghead: :banghead:

After 4 pages you still dont understand how hate crime laws work.

 

[crazed_ss]

More hate crimes are committed by blacks than against blacks.

Of course you have some hard data to back up that claim?

 

[crazed_ss]

Okay, let's look at the statistics.
Taking the statistics at face value, you are absolutely correct - blacks do not commit as many hate crimes as whites. In the FBI hate crimes data previously cited, "Table 4. - Number of Known Offenders by Race, 1995" shows that whites represent 59.2% of the offenders and blacks 26.7%.

However, the 2000 Census by Race shows that whites represent 75.1% of the population and blacks 12.3%. Compared to whites, blacks represent a smaller part of the population but a larger portion of the hate crime offenders. Therefore, the data indicates that blacks commit hate crimes at nearly 3 times the rate of whites.

There's another statistical proof - blacks are charged with hate crimes at a much higher rate than whites. Even discounting the numbers by half on the assumption that blacks are abused by the criminal justice system, blacks still commit hate crimes at a higher rate than whites.

Believe the statistics if you wish. I reject the idea that such a disproportionate portion of blacks are racists seething with white-hate. Instead, I see a major problem with the concept of criminalizing something as subjective as intent or motivation.

Intent or motivation matters because a hate crime is more than just a crime. Hate crimes are meant to terrorize. Like when Al-Qaeda hit the towers.. they werent just trying to kill Americans.. they were trying to instill terror in the American people. In my opnion, that makes their crime even more vicious.

A hate crime doesnt just effect the victim, it instills fear and uncertainty in large groups of people. That's why the they deserve to be punished more harshly.

 

[gc70]

Intent or motivation matters because a hate crime is more than just a crime. Hate crimes are meant to terrorize. Like when Al-Qaeda hit the towers.. they werent just trying to kill Americans.. they were trying to instill terror in the American people. In my opnion, that makes their crime even more vicious.

A hate crime doesnt just effect the victim, it instills fear and uncertainty in large groups of people. That's why the they deserve to be punished more harshly.

I am familiar with the theory of hate crimes, I just don't think it works.

On a per capita basis, the FBI hate crime statistics show that blacks commit hate crimes at a rate nearly 3 times higher than whites do. Do you really believe that black people in America are playing out some sort of plot to terrorize whites?

 

[shermacman]

After 4 pages you still dont understand how hate crime laws work.

Part of the reason that this post is 4 pages long is indeed that some people don't understand how "hate" crimes work. A crime is a crime. Intent has nothing to do with it.