Have tactical shotguns "lost it"?

[Officers'Wife]

If the gun fits, her perception of recoil will be minimal; in test after test it seems the sound has as much, or more, of an effect on a person's perception of recoil. We have all seen the yahoos on you tube giving some wife/gf/sil a hand cannon and they filmed while she got the you-know-what scared out of her. Now she won't ever want to shoot again.

By the same token I've seen my sister take Dad's ancient pump 12ga shotgun & hit three clay pigeons on the fly with it. Her big macho husband whimpered and whined from the recoil after the first shot. TI tells a lot of guys that we mere women can't handle the "big boys" of the firearm world. Like all blanket statements they are all wet. Yes, I would probably turn to my "underpowered" 32-20 and don't have much use for a 12 gauge. But like the line in the old guy movie, I never once said I don't know how to use one.

 

[Sam1911]

A: Many PDs and security agencies in the US are hiring more women & smaller personnel. They may or may not be able to handle 12ga shotguns with 00 buck,

I've trained with a class of big city police officers from around NYC who claimed that all their shotguns now live in lockers in the equipment rooms, retired, as so many officers refused to even qualify with "those d(ang) cannons!" They told me that as they grab a squad car from the motor pool each day there is an AR assigned to each car instead.

 

[MCgunner]

I ain't very tacticool, I guess.

 

[Zach S]

My post was a lot longer, but to shorten it quite a bit, my (then) wife couldn't shoot my 590 due to poor fitment, and a youth 20gauge had as much recoil due to the (much) lighter weight and lack of low recoil ammo.

She could shoot the AR pretty well, so the AR was our new HD gun. After the wife left and I moved on, I didn't bother with the shotgun, my new lady was trained on the AR.

Now she's gone, and I'm still using it.

I enjoy shooting my shotgun when I can, I just can't do it very often. I have 4 ARs. A 5.56, .45, 9mm, and .22. I can take three of those to a local range with no problem. The shotgun is a maybe, cheap birdshot is just noisy and useless, all of my practice AR ammo is cheaper than buck.

I think shotguns are going the way of the wheelgun. They will always be here, but their numbers are dwindling.

Got news for you. If, God forbid, you ever need to use a fancy AR with all sorts of add ons in a defense shooting it'll wind up in evidence for a GOOD long while. Therefore my HD arms are a completely basic AR and a Mossberg 500.

I look at it differently. If my $1500+ AR, ~$1300 1911, ~$800 590 protects myself or a loved one once, it was worth it. A lot cheaper than a funeral, with less of an emotional toll.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

I keep a couple hi-cap 9mm pistols and a couple 18'' barreled pump shotguns around the place for HD duties----the AR's and Mini's stay in the safe---I just feel I'm better protected that way.

As far as shotguns going the way of the Dodo----I cruise by the display at Walmart every time I'm in there and the HD shotguns move pretty quickly and frequently---the local Scheel's has a pretty good sized section dedicated to just HD shotguns ranging from the Maverick to the Benelli M4---no idea how many they move but I would have to say its quite a bit otherwise they wouldn't have the display set up and its been there for several years.

Shotguns just aren't sexy or the "in" thing but they still sell a lot of them---a lot. The real world is a far cry from what's popular on the forums.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Shotguns soldier on in home defense, while they have taken a backseat elsewhere.

Buckshot and slugs kick a bunch. Some people just don't like it.

In places where hi-cap mags are banned it can still deliver a punch. It remains one of the last guns banned in places banning guns.

On a budget, the shotgun remains THE go-to versatile long arm.

 

[Inebriated]

Shotguns are generally falling out of favor as the AR is accepted as a mainstream rifle. At least with new buyers, anyway. Even just 5 years ago, everyone I knew was all into the tactical shotgun. Now? It's mostly guys wanting an AR or AK for HD, rather than an 870... I certainly still love the fighting shotgun, and I have always said that shotguns are just the most enjoyable type of firearm to me.... But, it's not my pick for HD anymore. And I can see why it's not the number one pick for law enforcement either.

My own reasoning for going the carbine route is that the shotgun is just plain violent. Violent on the threat, violent on you, and for it to be reliable, you have to be violent on it. It's certainly conquerable, and I still regularly train with my go-to 870, but it's not what sits out at night. When I look at what I can be most effective with when I'm jolted out of bed in the middle of the night, I'm just better with the AR.

Like I said though... even if it isn't what I go to first, it's still something I like and keep up with.

 

[Virginian]

I am wracking my brain and I can't think of but a single time I have ever used a shotgun for anything around the house. That one time I shot a copperhead with a 20 gauge, because I was 14 and I wanted to; a stick would have been more efficient. I've dispatched a bunch of varmints with a .22 rifle, and for snakes that get into hard to get to or sensitive locations - like wrapped around the sprockets on my daughter's 10 speed bicycle in the garage - I use either the pellet gun or the .357 or .44 revolver loaded with snake loads. Those revolvers with Glasers are my primary HD guns. Just a whole whole lot easier to tote around than a shotgun.

 

[Ash]

Recoil is irrelevant. You just don't feel it when the adrenaline is flowing. Duck hunting, using 3 inch magnums, I can rise up, fire and cycle my Mossberg 500 3 times without really feeling the recoil or hearing the noise. Sure, I feel the shotgun, but I don't notice it. I hear the boom, but it is distant and somehow muffled. A bruised shoulder is the only evidence of the event. But when firing, I am so focused on the target that boom, boom, boom, and that is all there is. But, I seem to be able to focus on a duck and down it and its buddy in three shots - took two geese once, too. The recoil is not enough to cause any effect on my targeting. Ditto when I shoot rabbits or quail. With quail I use the pump, with rabbits I use the auto.

But when you pattern a shotgun, every ounce of recoil is felt. Heck, sometimes it seems as if it is magnified. At a range, I wouldn't enjoy shooting a shotgun - wouldn't even want to. But with clays or the like, that gets fun and you stop noticing recoil again.

In a high-anxiety event, I doubt I will notice the noise or the recoil. If I can hit a duck-sized target moving quickly, or a rabbit-sized target, I can hit a man-sized target no big deal. The advantage of a shotgun , for me, is instinctive shooting. I have to aim my rifle, but I simply shoot my shotgun (yeah, it's shouldered, yeah, I'm focused on the front bead).

 

[Sam1911]

At a range, I wouldn't enjoy shooting a shotgun

And what gun is most important to practice with A LOT?


The one you rely on to save your life. Saying that recoil is irrelevant, in the moment of dire need, is not terribly helpful during the 100s or 1,000s of hours spent preparing for that moment.

 

[lemaymiami]

What we're seeing today regarding defensive (or offensive, when CQB is the order of the day....) shotguns began some years ago. As a guy involved in training issues for my Department back in the late eighties, early nineties... the writing was already on the wall for shotguns. New recruits into police work (at least in my area) were less and less likely to have grown up in places where hunting was a rite of passage for every young'un. Most, new to firearms of any kind, weren't exactly shotgun ready when it came time to stand up and shoot paper targets with 00buck or slugs. Some made the transition but many barely passed to qualify and would never consider reaching for a shotgun -even if their squad car came equipped with one.... I'd like to be wrong here -but this is pretty much what our trainers reported and I observed on the street. Me, I took to any standard riot gun like it was my best friend (and on the street where it counts it never let me down....). Combine that with the growing numbers of female officers (or officers of small stature the way politically correct types referred to them...) and you had a perceived need to find an "alternative". In my era that was the 9mm carbine since overwhelmingly replaced by the AR type rifle... And of course as the numbers of shotgun equipped police agencies (my main frame of reference if you haven't figured it out by now...) declined so did the number of folks on any department who had the real skills to pass on to new officers...

Yes, then came the rise in "tactical shotguns" that were being seen in competition and touted heavily by every "expert" around. In my opinion that just further moved the shotgun into a specialty role. Don't mis-construe what I'm saying -a simple short barreled 12 guage is a deadly close quarters weapon -if you know how to use one properly and also know it's limitations...

I think as long as there are folks who use a shotgun for hunting we'll always have them available. If the so-called "tactical shotguns" disappear forever I won't shed a tear since I don't think much of most that I've seen... With a bit of training and a bit of knowledge about how the different projectiles (buck or slug) actually behave downrange I can take almost any shooter and have them combat ready for close quarters work (under 25 meters for buckshot, under 50 meters for slugs) in short order... but popular? I doubt we'll ever see the day again when a basic riot gun would be found in every squad car in this country. Wish it weren't so...

 

[Silverado6x6]

I just got rid of a tactical Ar15, it never felt right to me. The beauty of a shotgun is you can load almost anything into it, rock salt to nails even.

 

[El Tejon]

Have things really changed that much lately?

12, no, nothing has changed. These things go in cycles. Stick around and you'll see.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Recoil is irrelevant. You just don't feel it when the adrenaline is flowing. Duck hunting, using 3 inch magnums, I can rise up, fire and cycle my Mossberg 500 3 times without really feeling the recoil or hearing the noise. Sure, I feel the shotgun, but I don't notice it. I hear the boom, but it is distant and somehow muffled. A bruised shoulder is the only evidence of the event. But when firing, I am so focused on the target that boom, boom, boom, and that is all there is. But, I seem to be able to focus on a duck and down it and its buddy in three shots - took two geese once, too. The recoil is not enough to cause any effect on my targeting. Ditto when I shoot rabbits or quail. With quail I use the pump, with rabbits I use the auto.

But when you pattern a shotgun, every ounce of recoil is felt. Heck, sometimes it seems as if it is magnified. At a range, I wouldn't enjoy shooting a shotgun - wouldn't even want to. But with clays or the like, that gets fun and you stop noticing recoil again.

In a high-anxiety event, I doubt I will notice the noise or the recoil. If I can hit a duck-sized target moving quickly, or a rabbit-sized target, I can hit a man-sized target no big deal. The advantage of a shotgun , for me, is instinctive shooting. I have to aim my rifle, but I simply shoot my shotgun (yeah, it's shouldered, yeah, I'm focused on the front bead).

Hi Ash,

The teachers I had in the way of the gun had the combined experience of a war, a police action and a conflict. That instruction varied on a number of points but all agreed on one principle- when the animal by-product hits the air conditioning you have idea none how you are going to react but are most likely going to fall back on your training with the weapon you have available. Hitting ducks and rabbits on the run is admirable and a good sign. But will the reactions be the same should the ducks and rabbits be coming with the ability to do you harm and possibly shooting back? Are you going to remember your shotgun only has three or five rounds rather than the 7 or 13 of the weapon you trained with? While I agree you aren't as likely to feel the recoil in such a situation you aren't as likely to think of the fact the safety is in a different place as the pistol or rifle you trained with.

The true weapon humankind possesses is inside the pitifully few cubic inches inside their skull, the tools for that weapon to use is just a matter of practice and opportunity.

 

[Sav .250]

Don`t know how many forums your on but there is lots of love out there for the scatter-gun.

 

[Jason_W]

I'm a fan of the shotgun for its versatility. A short barrel "tactical" shotgun can often double as an excellent brush gun for deer. Put in some birdshot and you're good to go for small game. It wouldn't be the best rig for wing shooting birds, but it will be exponentially more effective at the task than any rifle.

It's for those reasons that I would prefer to have a shotgun rather than a carbine if I ever had to muddle through an extended period of time where the services and protections of civilization are unavailable.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

The main issues have been covered by others. Recoil is the biggest issue as people are spoiled by the varmint rounds that are passing as combat rounds these days. Yet, with the recoil reducing stocks out there today recoil is becoming a non-issue.

There is more initial firepower in the shotgun then in the AR type rifles or even in a Sub-machine gun. This is lost on todays LEO's due to their lack of training, background in the M4 and inability to deal with recoil. So the M4 is the long gun of choice in modern LE work. That does not make it the best choice.

So much of all this is simply Fad. What is hot at the moment. Gimmick Tacti-fool mess passed off as the latest Greatest thing. Messing around in someone's yard at night or on their property is going to more then anything result in you being confronted by the property owner who will more then likely have a hang gun in their hands, a shotgun or some type of sporting rifle. Not an AR-15. The handgun is still the preferred HD and defense gun in this country with any assortment of long guns bringing up the list. The AR is down that list and I would say that a .22 rifles and various shotguns out number the AR for this use. Many Baby Boomers don't even own AR's or want them. I don't have any nor want any nor do most the people I know. Yet, as we fade away our preferences will be gone and the younger crowd with the varmint rifles will rule the gun world. Or, they could wake up and realize that the shotgun is the most initial firepower you can bring to bare in your defense and let the varmint rifles go to the gun safe and come out for play time at the range.

 

[Skribs]

Unless I see stats, I'm willing to believe shotguns or pistols outnumber ARs, because of ye olde wisdom on shotguns and the versatility of the pistol for self defense (CCW or HD). I am not willing to believe .22s are the go-to HD weapon more often than ARs.

 

[200Apples]

.
J.D. reminded me years ago that if you can't take a shotgun to a gunfight, don't go. NINE .33-caliber lead balls per trigger pull is the way to go. The late Mr. Awerbuck preferred 1 oz .75-caliber slugs. I train with both rounds.

My second choice as defensive weapon are either a 1911 .45ACP (as opposed to .38 Super or, God forbid, 9mm Parabellum? Sacrilege!*), a .357 mag Model 1892 or a .44 mag '92. I doubt I will ever pwn an AR. Why? As the illustrious Officers'Wife here on THR tell us, "my grandfather advised that if you [use] up a [10-rd lever gun-] magazine... and still need more you either started shooting too soon or shouldn't have shot at all."


*Sacrilege: "violation or misuse of what is regarded as sacred"

 

[mokin]

Stupid, evil, interwebz

So I've been developing some loads for my 6.8SPC and 10mm Auto which is largely irrelevant to this discussion except that I had a ballistics calculator up and my range data book handy when I logged on. Anyway....

I'm a big fan of my Winchester 1300. It has wood. It feels good to handle. The only concessions I have made to "tacticalness" is a sling and a shell holder on the stock. While I'm most likely to have a handgun immediately accessible for HD I consider that shot gun the primary tool. I practice with slugs and buck often, but primarily use it to shoot trap and hunt. Back to the first paragraph...

While running chronograph results, statistics, etc., I also did some statistics for a one ounce slug load (as advertised--I haven't really chronographed it). So here they are:

.40 S&W 180 gr bullet @ 980 fps TKO =10.1
10mm Auto 165 gr bullet @ 1123 fps TKO =10.6
10mm Auto 180 gr bullet @ 1109 fps TKO =11.4
6.8SPC 115 gr bullet @ 2482 fps TKO =11.3
12 gauge 473 gr slug @ 1600 fps TKO = 78.9

While I realize there is a debate about the Taylor Knock Out factor I generally calculate it just as a metric to compare different loads. In this instance it appears to be an obvious choice if you are looking for the most destructive load. As I've never run shot gun data I thought it'd be interesting. How it compares to buckshot I have no idea.

 

[Dr.Rob]

You have to practice with anything you are going to use seriously.

I think a lot of people don't practice with buckshot.

More likely they burn up a few hundred rounds of birdshot a year and keep some buckshot on hand. Even I am guilty of this, I shoot more slugs than buckshot. I have more slugs on hand than buckshot.

Maybe if I ran my shotguns through shooting courses of fire like I do my rifles I'd feel differently. 3 gun competitors aren't shooting buckshot, they are shooting target loads, and slugs.


Cops started moving away from the shotgun after the North Hollywood shoot out. Couple that with agencies getting discount M4's from Uncle Sam and the shotguns are gathering cobwebs.

 

[Skribs]

Mokin, I'm going to go up to what Apples said about 9 .33 caliber holes. The way you get a physiological stop in the attacker is to remove the oxygen from his brain. The easiest way to do this is to aim COM and hope you hit the heart.

With the shotgun using buckshot loads, you get a lot of little holes that spread through the target and hit quite a bit.

With the AR, you get a massive shockwave that will make a single, large hole. But you cam get a few hits and make a few big holes easier than with a shotgun.

They both offer something good. Yes, the slugs are powerful, but the many holes from buckshot is what really gives the shotgun its stopping capability.

 

[MCgunner]

So long as there are ducks, geese, doves to be shot, the shotgun will never fade. Oh, tacticool shotguns, what we used to call "riot guns" might fade as new kids brought up on video gaming go for AR15s/M4s, but the shotgun will always have a place with Fudds like me. Now, ain't a lot of difference between a "riot gun" and my pump action duck guns save for barrel length and, if you're a REAL ninja, an extended magazine. The basic 870 or 500 will always be there for you to dress up even if they stop offering 590s and 870 police models.

JMHO

 

[ldlfh7]

Has anyone actually used a shotgun in home defense? I can imagine it is one nasty picture that I would never want to see with my own eyes. I have no doubt of their effectiveness, just the thought of actually shooting another person with one... Good lord!! Glad it has never happened to me.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Mokin, I'm going to go up to what Apples said about 9 .33 caliber holes. The way you get a physiological stop in the attacker is to remove the oxygen from his brain. The easiest way to do this is to aim COM and hope you hit the heart.

With the shotgun using buckshot loads, you get a lot of little holes that spread through the target and hit quite a bit.

With the AR, you get a massive shockwave that will make a single, large hole. But you cam get a few hits and make a few big holes easier than with a shotgun.

They both offer something good. Yes, the slugs are powerful, but the many holes from buckshot is what really gives the shotgun its stopping capability.

The story is told that at one time my uncle was being teased about his double barreled coach gun by a "special deputy" of a certain county that had a Thompson sub machine gun owned by the department. My uncle laughed at him and pointed out that the shotgun could fire two 12 gauge rounds in less than a 10th of a second which came to a cyclic rate of over 10 thousand rounds a minute and his Thompson only 800. The sheriff at the time (a Lee Roy Farney IIRC) sent the deputy out to direct traffic before he could make (more of) a fool out of himself.