Have tactical shotguns "lost it"?

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by 12Pump, Feb 25, 2015.

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  1. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Well, you know, when someone's attacking me with the intent to kill me, I don't mind cheating. I guess I COULD use my 10/22, but I'd rather get the job done fast as possible, worry about getting the blood out of the carpet later. I've killed a LOT of animals, many with a shotgun, most actually since a 2 day dove hunting excursion usually results in limits on my buddy's farm. :D I'm quite used to the gun and that's part of the reason I prefer the same gun I shoot doves with, the little 20 gauge SxS coach gun. I shot a deer last year at 35 yards with 3 buck, died in his tracks with 3 rounds hitting the head, 5 in his neck. First deer I ever shot with a shotgun out of dozens I've taken with rifles and a few with handguns.

    Anyway, if you don't wanna hurt the bad guy, maybe you'd be better off with mace or a tazer, non-lethal defense. I don't mind unleashing hell on my attacker, though, if, God forbid, I am ever in that position. An armed intruder in my house is no longer that likely, though, since I moved to the sticks. I don't worry about it like I did in the city. I'm at the end of a 2 mile rough dirt road. Anyone coming down that road is conspicuous and my two neighbors and I know our vehicles. I'm retired, love it out here, and part of the reason for moving is I don't really wanna blow some scum bag's head off with my shotgun. IOW, I don't wish to be put in that situation in the first place. But don't think I wouldn't do it if I had to!

    Here, this guy caught some buckshot. Not at accross the room distance, but it still did a number on him.

    Meet Bill Doolin.....

    BillDoolin.jpg
     
  2. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    Actually the only gun I've used in home defense or to kill an animal is a rubber band gun. It's actually really effective against the common house spider ;)
     
  3. Jlr2267

    Jlr2267 Member

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    I have not used one for SD, but I have seen the results of SG blasts to the human head, upper torso, and in one case the upper arm/shoulder area. There is no rifle round comparable, in terms of damage, at close distance.

    I was quail hunting in TN and one of our members, who hunted with an Ithaca pump, took a shot, lowered the muzzle (big no-no), pumped and slam-fired into his son's upper left arm, severing it at the shoulder. He survived (miraculously). That was #6 shot at about 10ft.
     
  4. ldlfh7

    ldlfh7 Member

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    How horrible the father must have felt. Safety first.
     
  5. AI&P Tactical

    AI&P Tactical Member

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    They are the defalt HD for many people because that is what they own. If we get out of the Tactical forum world for a minute and look at the rest of America. The ones not caught up in the Black rifles and Tactical Shotguns. Many own only one or two firearms and these are most likely to include a .22 rifle or pistol.

    The stats are in the fact that the most common owned rifle is some form of a .22. Most all of us learned to shoot with a .22 and those same .22's are still in our families. Most all manufacturers offer some form of .22 rifle and some include the AR style ones. I don't know anyone in my circle that does not own a .22 rifle. I know this for a fact because they are all after me to find them .22 ammo.

    The hardest to fine ammo today is .22 cal, yet manufacturers are running at full capacity. I can find .223, 7.62 X 51 and 7.62 X 39 all over the places and cases of 12ga. 9mm, .380 and .45 are plentiful today. But that little .22 round is like gold today.

    I am not saying in any way that the .22 is a go to HD gun. But if that is all you have then use it. Me, I may just have an 870 or two nearby when needed if I look :)
     
  6. plumberroy

    plumberroy Member

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    At home defense ranges ? If you can't hit a center mass every time you need to be on the range now if you plan on using a gun for home defense. Have you ever actually shot any animal with #00 buck at 30 ft it will take the head off a medium size deer or large feral dog . Like I said before if you aren't messing drugs dealers or gangs chances of an intruder staying to fight is slim . I know the capacity of Most H.D. shotguns. The only reason my H.D./utility shotgun is 6+1 is the man who built it is set up to do mag extensions and would have had to order a Remington barrel nut with sling mount and a upgraded 4 shot spring He is a member here he can vouch for that
    You can think what you want , you can shoot what you want .
    I am a realist, chances are if 5 rounds of #00 buck doesn't get you out of a home defense situation you probably won't walk out under your own power. I have never had to defend myself against a human with deadly force and pray I never have too. I have defended myself against animals intending on doing me harm 3 times. I can tell you this,,, Had I missed with the first shot I would not have gotten the second shot off.
    Roy
     
  7. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    You must not own a .22 magnum. :D
     
  8. AI&P Tactical

    AI&P Tactical Member

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    Yes, I do in fact have one, however as it is a sporting gun the couple of hundreds rounds I have will do me just fine. I was smart enough to also have 2,500 rounds of CCI stingers in .22 before this mess started. I now wish I had got 5,000 rounds of Mini Mags instead so I could share some with all the friends bothering me about it. I am not sharing my stingers as my .22 1911 and my .22 M1 Carbine need at least Mini Mag or faster to cycle properly. My next .22 will be the Kingston Armory M14 so I will need ammo for that one also.

    I can also say that the shotgun is a live and well for HD or I would not be so busy and would be picking up cans and bottles on the side of the roads.
     
  9. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Chiappa M1? Mine loves CCI standard velocity as well as Remington Thunderbolt which i used to think was crap until I got the M1 .22. :D .22s in general are picky individuals, though, when it comes to preferred ammo.

    I'm glad to know that people think enough of shotguns now days to get training in significant numbers. There was once a day the riot gun rode in in most every patrol car in Texas. I don't know what they carry now days, don't keep up with such things.

    One thing no one's addressed, or I don't THINK they have unless I just missed it, but the shotgun can fire all sorts of specialty ammo that the AR can't, like rubber shot, bean bag, and such. I'd find it hard to believe that police departments whole sale have given up shotguns for ARs. They may have added ARs, but give up the shotgun?

    An uncle was deputy sheriff of Matagorda county when I was a kid. He carried a shotgun and an M1 Carbine in the car, don't know if he ever had occasion to use either. His sidearm was a K frame, of course. :D This was the 60s.
     
  10. Sheepdog1968

    Sheepdog1968 Member

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    I think a good part of it is marketing trends similar to fashion to keep merchandise flowing much like floods are in one year then bell bottoms and over time floods are back in style.
     
  11. Miky

    Miky Member

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    Roy, I would go easy on the marksmanship rhetoric. 50% of LE shootings take place inside of 5 feet, not 5 yards, 5 feet. And still, officers manage a hit rate somewhere south of 20% with their handguns. You can say all you want about the training of the officers, the fact is, even trained officers miss most of the time when they are fighting for their lives. It's always been that way, this is not a new phenomenon.

    The whole "if you can't get it done with X" argument is, if you are honest with yourself, a justification for employing a weapon with a low magazine capacity because you like the weapon.

    Your earlier comment about not having what it takes to defend yourself if you are worried about a gun grab is a bunch of machismo. If you are confronting an unarmed person while armed, a gun grab should be exactly your concern.

    Shotguns are great, M4s work well too. I don't see myself running past one to get to the other if the situation arose.
     
  12. paintballdude902

    paintballdude902 Member

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    my ar is packed away safe and sound. my 870 is under the bed with a belly full of 00.

    i dont want to fool with a gun at night, i want to grab it and it be simple. kahr cw9 in the night stand with one in the tube and 870 under the bed.

    from time to time change it up and put my security six in the night stand. 870 doesnt move unless its duck season and then my SXS takes over HD
     
  13. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    Have tactical shotguns "lost it"?

    Maybe so. Depends on who you ask... chances are the homeowner's shotgun here was not "tactical."

    ==============================

    http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/deputies-man-shoots-intruder-after-home-invasion/nkG8L/

    Updated: 11:42 a.m. Friday, Feb. 27, 2015 | Posted: 10:14 a.m. Monday, Feb. 23, 2015

    (Catawba County, NC) Deputies catch man connected with break-in that left 1 dead

    Deputies said Brandon Lineberger ran off when the homeowner shot and killed his partner-in-crime, Vernon Dixon, at a home on Riverbend Road Monday.

    The homeowner shot Dixon once with a shotgun after police said the men kicked in his door.
     
  14. AI&P Tactical

    AI&P Tactical Member

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    Might say it sure went Tactical when he needed it to.
     
  15. TestPilot

    TestPilot Member

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    "Lost it"?

    The thing is that shotguns never "had it" to begin with.

    Too many of what people believe about shotguns are perceptions than reality.

    First, shotgun shots are not that almighty death rays people make it out to be. This is from people who actually used shotguns in gun fights like Jim Cirillo. Don't be surprised if your opponent take all 9 pellets from 00 buck shot and still run.

    And, yes I've seen that grusome pictures of skull being blown open from shotgun wounds, but rifle can produce skull popping wounds as well. And, yes, even that tiny 5.56mm also can. It's not something unique to shotguns.



    Second, words like "versatile" thrown around further convinces me that this is a perception issue.

    Versatile? In what regard?

    It is versatile for SWAT since it can fire frangible for breaching, and be used for CS gas launcher, less lethal round launcher, etc. But, that has ZERO relevance to regular citizen's self-defense.

    Sure, it can take a variety of different shots. But, are you really going to make the first shot with a 00 buck shot, then chamber load a #4 shot, then switch to a bird shot while twirling the shotgun or somethng? In the middle of a gun fight?

    Let's be realistic here. Only thing that even remoetly sound plausible is switch between buck shot and slugs. But, at home defense distance, shots don't spread enough to even make a difference.

    If is definitely versatile in regards to having a utility in hunting, but that does not mean it is versatile within fighting applications.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2015
  16. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    As a fellow said earlier shotguns are like claw hammers they both do what they were designed to do very well. My 1982 Wingmaster got 2 upgrades in the 1980s and one since 2000, she got a choate set of Black plastic stocks and a,10shot tube extension with 2 sets of springs. Then since 2000 she got a new front sight that glows. Oh I forget I also have an Army Ranger 25 Round ammo sling I can put on it in about 30 seconds.
     
  17. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    As usual a variety of opinions about fighting shotguns. Used within its limitations nothing is more effective at ranges under 25 meters. 99% of what is shown in popular entertainment regarding shotgun usage is purest BS and has contributed to lots of mis-conceptions about them. In my experience a single center of mass hit on an opponent is an absolute fight ender.

    Most never take the time to pattern their shotguns properly (at various ranges from less than 7 meters out to 25 meters) and have never been taught just how buckshot behaves after hitting a hard surface (or a soft surface). Learning to "skip shoot" greatly enhances your ability to engage someone standing behind cover (particularly standing behind a car...) but most will never learn it or much less practice it. Along with buckshot (all I want is standard 2 3/4" 00buck) the use of slugs greatly expands your abilities with a standard short barrel 12ga. To this day I can still hit a 10" paper plate with a slug fired out of a tube that only has a simple bead sight at 50 meters almost every time...

    There's one other thing about a standard "riot" gun that's not discussed much and that is it's the most intimidating weapon you can bring to a close quarters confrontation. I might have pointed one at someone a 1000 times in a 22 year police career - and only had to actually shoot once in all those years. In every case (except one) I never had to disengage the safety -my finger was never on the trigger unless it was the moment to shoot... Most, even heavily armed individuals, will absolutely stand down if they figure you can't miss and very, very bad things will happen to them if they're facing a shotgun.... I can't remember how many times someone I was pointing a pistol at didn't seem to fear it at all. No one (unless they're crazy or intoxicated) ignores a shotgun. At least that was my experience down here in the mostly suburban areas of south Florida.

    As I've already mentioned the shotgun is no longer a standard police weapon. For anyone in a defensive situation though, a properly employed shotgun actually reduces the need to shoot. That's a very good thing from my perspective. What anyone goes though after a shooting (even a justified one) isn't something to look forward to at all.
     
  18. C0untZer0

    C0untZer0 Member

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    It seems like there is an automatic aversion to slugs for HD by some people. I think ammo selection is important, just as it is with handguns.

    If you look at the Winchester 12ga Super-X slug, it only penetrates to around 14.50" and expands to 1.24" in ballistic gel.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKge3FF0Hx4

    When a .45 ACP round penetrates to 15" and expands to around .78", people generally say that's a great performing projectile, but a shotgun slug that penetrates about the same distance but has over 1½ times the expansion is somehow not a great performing projectile.
     
  19. dh223

    dh223 member

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    The OP is right. The boards tell the story. The shotgun is in distant second place to the carbine. The shotgun will never go away. But, the carbine has so many more advantages

    Easier for non gun female to shoot
    Faster second shots
    More reliable (pump) - no user inducing pumping errors.
    More reliable (Semi auto) - shotguns are not as reliable as an AR15
    Easier to mount a light
    Easier to mount a RDS for low light
    Higher capacity
    Less recoil

    The only thing a shotgun is said to do better is to deliver more stopping power per shot. I have heard people debate this and, to me, it is not clear.

    I just sold my HD shotguns and will rely on my AR15s instead. The following quote sums it up

    "I have an AR15. What do I need a shotgun for?"

    - Pat Rogers
     
  20. RustyShackelford

    RustyShackelford member

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    Room brooms....

    As for "versatile" Id say check out the cool 12ga shotgun rounds sold thru www.deltaforce.com . ;)
    Depending on your state or location laws/statues you can get a lot out of a 12ga shotgun with those little buggers. :D
    About 40% the shotgun loads are illegal where I live, some to me are downright dangerous, :uhoh: .

    12ga can and do offer a few benefits both to sworn LE & armed citizens but they aren't for everyone(or every defense-police situation).
     
  21. Creature

    Creature Member

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    dh223 wrote:
    Nice quote. But did Pat Rogers really say that?
     
  22. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    Just because a SxS may be used tactically, doesn't make it a tactical shotgun. There is a reason you don't see leaves next to Charmin at the store.

    In my opinion, a tactical HD shotgun must have the following attributes:
    1) A light source for target identification (unless you have different ones for day/night). Don't plan on just turning on the lights, because power may be out.
    2) Enough ammo to handle misses and/or multiple baddies. 4-5 is good, but the more the merrier. I try to have 6 or 7 in mine.
    3) A short enough barrel to handle hallways. If you have a bullpup this doesn't matter, but 22" is the max barrel length I would suggest. Break action guns get a bit more leeway than repeaters.

    Now, my shotguns also have shell caddies, red dot or ghost ring sights, and a sling, but I do not consider these primary must haves. I'd also list pistol grip as a must have, but neither of my shotguns have them and I don't want to be a hypocrite ;)
     
  23. plumberroy

    plumberroy Member

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    My sister in law works for the sheriffs department, my mother in law retired from the sheriffs department, I have a good friend that is a deputy. I have shot with many law enforcement officers. You don't need to remind me how bad most of them are with a gun. I know 1 deputy that is flat out fearsome with a gun He is a Navy M.P resevist.
    I pistol can be disabled if a bad guy grabs it . A long gun you pull back hard and pull the trigger . If you do not have what it takes to bring a gun to bear and squeeze the trigger without hesitation or pull back on a gun and pull the trigger . Milliseconds matter in self defense if you have to stop and think how do I react or where is the ???? on this gun you may not get the chance to react . There is no machismo involved just being a realist

    I know people that would be just as effective with a rifle or pistol but they shoot like a shotgunner mount the gun so as to hit where they look .

    This is another one I like I have shot many animals with many guns I have a 45-70 my 300 gr handloads drop deer like Thor's hammer same with feral dogs and coyotes in the poultry , Yet I blew a golf ball size hole through both lungs of a 20 lb beagle mix he ran a 100 yards and stopped second round put another hole the size of a golf ball and that one took the top of his heart out the dog traveled another 1/4 mile and I had to finish him (this was my dog and he was killing geese worth $40 each) there is always that animal that dies harder than most


    Roy
     
  24. AI&P Tactical

    AI&P Tactical Member

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    If a perp takes 9 00 pellets in the chest and still runs off I will have witnessed what I would call a Miracle because a dead man just ran away. I have heard the term "shotgun dead" for my entire life. I have never heard the term "pistol dead" or anything like that. They use the term "shotgun dead" to describe being as dead as you can get. I am sure people can come up with some examples of someone taking a shotgun blast and living. It can happen but is the rare exception not the rule. Yet the number of gang bangers running around bragging about the 9mm rounds they have taken is common these days. Never met one who took a load of 00 in the chest.

    I have built guns for Doctors, some of whom worked Trauma Centers. They all have first hand knowledge of the effects of a shotgun wound and all were choosing the shotgun for Defense. I am honored they were choosing my builds.

    If you are going to a gun fight, take a shotgun. If you can't take a shotgun, don't go.
     
  25. Miky

    Miky Member

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    Ok, sorry Roy I misunderstood what you said about the gun grab, I thought you meant it wasn't an issue. It sounds like you realize it's an issue but have a plan to deal with it.

    And the Stat I gave about LE shootings doesn't just relate to cops. It relates to everyone, almost all cops can shoot 80% or better on a controlled range from distances of 5 to 25 yards. They do it at least once a year to qualify.

    My point is that skill on a range does not equate to hits in a gunfight. Most people miss most of the time, LE or not.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2015
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