Have you had a gunfight recently?

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NO RT Gunfights for I please.....

In NO way a substitute for the real thing BUT worthless? Nah....Some fun i had a few months back:

"OH MAN had the best time I have had in yrs! AMAZING bunch of guys (For the most part better batch than MY steady crew) AT one point I lost a perscription sports lens out in the field and had to stop....thought they'd be pissed? BUT when what turned out to be about 30 guys (25 of which i just met) Each teams leader yelled SEARCH PARTY NOW FALL IN NOW!!! all fell into a straight line and in about 10 minutes walked off a section of the field I was lying low in and FOUND it, and THEY truly were so happy to have done so :)....Down side was my conditioning which became apparent about 1/2 through the day (mental note stick to playing against OTHER Bankers NOT actual SWAT) Anyhow wound up with heat exhaustion that night and today is the first day i can walk stairs w/o crying like a little girl...Had everything from 2 story barns, Lofts, Tree stands, Humvee's, Hollow'ed out Helicopter (Which was great for "Save the Pres." drills...where one team has to escort "The President" from this vacant building across a field to the helicopter) broad range of weapons from Long range Sniper Springers for the tree lines, machine guns in full auto for striffing runs...EVEN a BAZOOKA YUP....ran on propane and showered like hail (BUT only 1 time and you were exposed doing so, I felt it was worthless being we were at distance and with wind 40-50yds. was
max. accurate range. All on about 15+ acres, Played from about 9AM to 8PM & My blind old ass rocked IMO (and IM USUALLY the humble type :) Shot just as many, as shot I...and with guys that do it all week long for real (*TRUTH is, its EZ to have a cool head and set of Balls when JUST playing Airsoft, heck we would just run thru the Barn full sprint and pepper the guys up in the lofts, NO doubt if those were .223's I would have been alittle less apt to STAND UPright period much less expose!) I give credit to the whole crew. SO much advil and happy memories later Im back at the ranch. Some useful observations:

Tree Stands/Lofts : Great to get a clear veiw of what coming, and superior tactical angle shooting down, I noticed the same when snipeing from the lofts or stair cases. BUT w/o MUCH support fire YOUR [] when the find you. OUCH .
Structures: Weither it be barn or building. WHEN postioned INSIDE OF...During the day YOU see everything coming, and they see nothing until its to late...AT night...YOU see nothing and stand out like candles in the window OUCH again .

Reloading: DON'T wait till your empty to do it...
Doorways: this one I already KNEW...stay [] out of them or move through QUICK as not to be outlined for EZ fire...IT'S the truth trust me, Some marion Cty SWAT members learned to practice what they preached, while I tucked behind a 50 Gallon drum and cut em down
PAYLOAD: IT pays to travel light, ditch the Pistol/Holster (Heck my transition was to darn slow under fire anyhow!) and go long arm and ammo, IF real Time I'd do diff!!!! BUT for airsoft :) I started WAY overloaded and my movement improved substanialy when I lightened my load) OR improve your conditioning! :) Controlled 2-3 RD burts, just as effective as full auto. lastly FOOTWEAR, ankle support and lightweight, when taking cover WATCH your exposed angles (NOT just YOUR own presented angle of fire) and dont get outflanked, working as a team w/ support fire avoided this...Again most of the above is just another day at the office for many BUT hope some of it helps :)

Again great buch of guys, it was all about honor, NOONE questioned weither they were hit or not, NO one punished in excess ...all they were concerned with was making each part of the machine run alittle smoothier each time out. Real class acts. AND best part....they meet once every 6-8 wks. and invited me BACCCK as a Perm. ....NOW get out and play MORE, it will show you just how darn OUT of Cardio shape you really are :neener:"
 
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A couple of years ago in WLC (PLDC) we did a lot of MOUT training with paint round uppers on our M16s.

I'm just sayin'...
 
Won't argue there, but 20 year old MILES is better than a bunch of guys shooting tiny, bright orange plastic balls at eachother
I don't know. MILES is pretty worthless. A better system needs to be found.
 
Having simulating combat with blanks and with airsoft I would say that airsoft is more useful provided you use good guns. I say that it is better because you must aim to hit things, and when you hit people they can feel it. Blanks are pretty much useless unless you have a lane walker nearby and even then it is still very subjective. However, the do give you practice in clearing jams. :)
 
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I play a steady routine with the Lowell county correctional facitliy beside the fine gent's mentined above, and we all run modified classic army's M-4 and such....WAY over 400 + FPS and direct hits to skin literally need tweezers for removal :evil: Hence one layers up accordingly. In general modificatins to spring and piston is all that is needed. OUCH factor NOT so imprtant as hitting straight to point of aim AT pull of trigger and at a reasonable distance, NO arch and Little lead time :) MORE fun than anything else BUT I look at it as the ocala's version of Golf and in the woods :cool:
 
We were tired of MILES and our commanders got together and picked up a bunch of Spiders. I was pretty funny when our mechanics kicked the crap out of our scouts. Paintballs or airsoft will make you keep your head down and use cover properly.
 
Again, you'll get out of it what you put into it. The rules are for the role players in scenarios to teach a specific point. You could do 10 scenarios a day for the rest of your life & not cover everything. Would that make it useless? Absolutely not- IF it was well organized & run.

I would like to know how many of the people who think FOF is useless or that your time is better spent doing gun katas have actually gone through a good FOF course like Shivworks' ECQC or Tactical Response's The Fight FOF & how many are just talking out their hind quarters with no real point of reference.
 
There is a much improved MILES out now too. The name escapes me. I shot a guy at about 150 meters with an aimed shot to the head. Also it disables your weapon when you are hit.

It runs on GPS so you can review missions from a God's eye view and also call indirect fire! It has speakers with cheesy zings for near misses and mortar sound effects. It is much, much improved over MILES.
 
Miles,even with the bells and whistles is still just an annoying F*** beep, getting welts for your stupidity is stronger reinforcement, Oh, BTW did you wear your laser goggles? You do know that miles will bind you....

miles for vehicle combat, I can understand that, I have found that most of the time the OPFOR just covers the sensors and goes rambo through the best defenses, after all whats a kill, 24hrs of rest and three MRE's
 
They should attach a five second TASER shock vest to the MILES system, that would make people sweat and get wide eyed when incoming "fire" flies by.
 
It is virtually forgotten anymore, but the primary reason that the Samurai would use kata is to clear their mind and concentrate on drawing their sword and acting perfectly. With all of the force on force training being pounded these days, most people forget to clear their mind and "focus on their one purpose".

That is the point of kata and why you should practice drawing and firing (with snap caps) daily. Draw from concealment, fire fire fire, move to cover. Concentrate on your sights and so on. Their where whole schools (still taught today) focused solely on the art of drawing the sword.

Force on force training will someday be shown to be the farce that it is. The reason I say this is because you cannot recreate a desperate situation and it ultimately teaches bad tactics. In a street encounter there is only one rule. Kill or be killed. So there can be no recreation of this environment in a training simulation. What we do recreate is a semi stressful situation based on rules. The abiding concern for the people involved in the simulation is not to break the rules. That becomes what they focus on instead of their one purpose.

That of course is my $0.02.

That's what all the old karate guys used to say about full-contact vale tudo (now MMA) style fighting.... but they were all pretty much wrong.

If you get a kickboxer who does force on force, or a wrestler who does force on force, or a judoka who does force on force - they will beat any karate/tae kwon do guy who only does kata's and point sparring. I just grimace when I see aikido guys "spar" or whatever - it's not full speed force on force.

Kata's are useful - but really....

I wonder if the bias against airsoft is due to ignorance. Yes, the $20 gun's at wal-mart are not useful but there are some really high quality C02 airsoft guns out there that pretty much mimick the weight and feel of guns.

So um, before people critique, can they actually explain their experience with airsoft? Were you using one of the Sig Sauer training airsoft pistols, or a Wal-mart battery powered micro-uzi?
 
We were tired of MILES and our commanders got together and picked up a bunch of Spiders. I was pretty funny when our mechanics kicked the crap out of our scouts. Paintballs or airsoft will make you keep your head down and use cover properly.

Ditto

I would like to know how many of the people who think FOF is useless or that your time is better spent doing gun katas have actually gone through a good FOF course like Shivworks' ECQC or Tactical Response's The Fight FOF & how many are just talking out their hind quarters with no real point of reference.

and ditto.
 
SHusky57 said:
If you get a kickboxer who does force on force, or a wrestler who does force on force, or a judoka who does force on force - they will beat any karate/tae kwon do guy who only does kata's and point sparring. I just grimace when I see aikido guys "spar" or whatever - it's not full speed force on force.

Provided the Karate man doesn't hit in the groin, gouge eyes, rip ears off or any of that other stuff that is "illegal" in MMA.

I hate to break it to you but it is a rule based system and thus it is useless as an actual combat system. It is one thing to roll around on a mat it is quite another to roll on asphalt and that isn't even considering the other attackers that may or may not just be content to stand around waiting for you to submit their partner.

I always find it funny when MMA guys talk about how real their martial art is and the street science of it while sitting on a soft rubber mat in an air conditioned room adjusting their pads....

I don't have an opinion about which martial art is better. I think that one rule based system lecturing another rule based system on whose is more real is ridiculous. It is like the ACT vs the SAT on whose test earns the taker more money.

Most of my arguments against force on force come from MMA. Great hobby, better than nothing, but they develop a dangerous over confidence about your abilities.

The main benefit of Air Soft is going into the field kitted out and learning team tactics. As a way to learn "shooting" it is essentially worthless.

To a small degree you can recreate hand to hand combat, as we know. But to recreate pistol combat very very hard, most of the training simulations out there are junk. But they do teach team tactics and working with your kit in the field, so are not entirely useless.

I am not down on all training or all training methods, but JUST LIKE martial arts, in the "gun fighting" world you have 98% snake oil salesman and 2% real professionals teaching real methods and mindset.
 
I would like to know how many of the people who think FOF is useless or that your time is better spent doing gun katas have actually gone through a good FOF course like Shivworks' ECQC or Tactical Response's The Fight FOF & how many are just talking out their hind quarters with no real point of reference.

hmmm

The more I try to make my point the worse I seem to do.

Seminars like shivworks were they teach you grips, movements, set up a target to stab, foot work and then later try their best to see you implement it in "real life" under expert critique isn't what I am talking about.

Those are the good guys.

I am talking about the "method banned by the army" teachers. The guys that spend 100% of their training time trying to recreate actual combat not teaching fundamentals of shooting, sight picture and the like.

:(

Air soft for fun is one thing. Your local Air Soft wacko opening up a "combat school" is the basis for what I am saying. Gun counter commandos. Those kind of guys training people in "real combat", which thanks to the rise of CCW classes and what not, I have seen. So MOST of you guys posting here I don't have a beef with no matter what you views are. I would say that we are all serious students of the game, that is partly why we are all here... I wouldn't classify many here as a gun counter commando.

I hope that clears up what I am talking about.
 
This is an honesty check

Who as actually been in combat

in the military
law enforcement
SD shooting

me, 2 tours in Iraq, been shot at, never cleared to shoot back, I was the driver
 
That's what all the old karate guys used to say about full-contact vale tudo (now MMA) style fighting.... but they were all pretty much wrong.

Karate is designed to KILL people.
MMA is designed to beat someone up.

I think Krav Maga is waay cooler though.

I'm 18.
Never been in combat, or the military, or an SD shooting, or a gunfight.
However, I'm doing everything in my power to keep the odds on my side.
 
Doing a deal with a Jamaican drug importer in 197- in NJ as an undercover Fed agent all of a sudden he pulled a .380 PPK on me from about 10 feet and told me he was gonna shoot my white butt. when he turned his head to holler for his friends I started stitching him from the groin up with my 2.5" Model 19 loaded with Treasury +P+ .38s as the gun cleared the cross draw holster. 3 of 5 shots hit him , none above the stomach. It did drop him and I stepped on his hand and took his weapon and held his friends at bay with the one shot left in my weapon.
My agency did not like it that I did not identify my self nor say "put the gun down" before I opened fire. I parted ways with that CS (at the time, I hear they are cool nowadyas) organization and never looked back. The guy had a bag and was in a wheel chair when I last saw him in court, so much for 110 grain .38s and non COM shots. But I walked away.
I also shot a sapper who ran by me in 1970 in VN with a .45 when I came out of a bunker. As I recall 3 sighted body hits skidded him down at about 7 yards for the longest one and I shot him in the head twice before he could pull the detonator cord.
Although jacked for days on adreneline and the drop off of same, I never felt anything after other than feeling really lucky.
 
Karate is designed to KILL people.
MMA is designed to beat someone up.

I think Krav Maga is waay cooler though.

I'm 18.
Never been in combat, or the military, or an SD shooting, or a gunfight.
However, I'm doing everything in my power to keep the odds on my side.

I will put my money on the MMA guy everytime, rules or not. They know how to fight. Karate guys know how to punch air, hope around, and yell.... except Lyoto Machida but wait - he actually does full contact fighting.

Karate guys can talk all day - but stuff changes when you get hit in the face and you have never encountered that in training.
 
I can't recall a true gunfight, as a former LEO I was shot at a number of times and returned fire in a couple, I never considered those a gunfight for some reason. I was hit by friendly fire once, 12 gauge slugs. Nothing penetrated even though the range was no more than 50 feet. I always thought of a gunfight as something protracted but in truth, I guess most gunfights are over in seconds.
 
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I have been shot at, and had guns pointed at me, but I have never returned fire.
 
I will put my money on the MMA guy everytime, rules or not. They know how to fight. Karate guys know how to punch air, hope around, and yell.... except Lyoto Machida but wait - he actually does full contact fighting.

But wait, I didn't say anything about full contact fighting.
I still think Karate is more lethal.
 
MBT201- I think we more or less agree, but I would say that the real benefit of FOF is in the stress inoculation & getting you to think against a live opponent & under stress- not the fundamentals of shooting. FOF is less concerned with how you shoot & more concerned with how you think. That is the true benefit.

As for the rules making things unrealistic for FOF, the rules are what create the learning experience. Without the bad/innocent/whatever actors playing their parts according to the rules the “good guy student” won’t learn much of anything. Without the rules it would just turn into a free for all & that is when it stops being FOF & turns into a bunch of kids playing airsoft or sims games.

Can we get back on point & leave the my kung-fu will beat your fu-kung for a different thread?
 
Thank you YammyMonkey

My point about asking about actual experience is that, while FOF is not the same as REAL combat, it lets you understand the dynamics that are happening, and gives you some idea of what you can, and can't do
 
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