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Hb 4774 mi

Discussion in 'Activism Discussion and Planning' started by shootingthebreeze, May 13, 2014.

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  1. shootingthebreeze

    shootingthebreeze Member

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    Tomorrow, there will be a rally by Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America at the Capitol, Lansing MI relating to HB 4774.

    As a gun owner (and CPL holder) I am also a supporter of gun sense in America. Just yesterday, a man killed an employee at the Rite Aid in Frandor, Lansing and shortly afterwards shot and killed another person in East Lansing.

    If stricter gun laws are not enacted, the Second Amendment itself will be in danger eventually. Ignoring gun sense in America will eventually weaken the Second Amendment. No one here wants that including me.

    Several things are a concern, one in particular. As a CPL holder there are rules as to prohibited areas such as schools, places of worship. Some here in Michigan have gone around the rules and just open carry. HB 4774 addresses that, which would prohibit open carry in such places. Myself, I feel that open carry anywhere is not necessary in 2014-where is the OK Corral? I have seen more open carry in the Lansing area and I cannot see its justification.
     
  2. Midwest

    Midwest Member

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    Sorry I disagree. I hope the legislation gets tossed out, registration of all firearms needs to be resoundingly defeated. Firearm registration is what Australia and the UK did to it's citizens. Later on Australia confiscated those registered firearms from law abiding citizens who committed no crime.

    'Moms' is a front organization fronted with Bloomberg's money, whose main goal is to disarm gun owners in this country. You did know that, didn't you?

    Why do you call yourself a gun owner and support organizations hell bent on taking your rights away? Unless of course you are not a gun owner, just posing as one.........
    .
     
  3. dab102999

    dab102999 Member

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    The justification is the disconect of training and schooling on guns. They have spent many decades takeing guns out of every day life and replaced it with the thought that either cops or criminals carry guns. Open carry has been in our (Michigans) constitution since the late 1880's so today it is just as important as it has been for the last 130+ years.

    As far as expanding restrictions I believe the only expansion should be the expansion to constitutional carry. I will reserve any other comment at this point until full discloser of this story for I believe that this is not the first time a crime had been comittied by this person so there for any more laws would do nothing for the laws we have did not and will not stop what happened.
     
  4. dab102999

    dab102999 Member

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    Also if I am not mistaken at the time frame of the O.K. corral it was illegal to carry in the streets of Tombstone also.
     
  5. smalls

    smalls Member

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    You can't seriously believe all of this...
     
  6. shootingthebreeze

    shootingthebreeze Member

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    Owner of a Rossi .38/.357 revolver 2.5 inch barrel, rubber grips; Springfield Champion 1911 style .45 (my favorite); Kahr .45; Kahr .380; Remington 12 gauge police shotgun. Yes I'm a gun owner and expend over 300 rounds a month at Rose Lake Range Spring Summer and Fall.

    Many gun owners I know support Moms. I don't agree with everything they say nor do I agree with Bloomberg's extreme views. There must, however, be a beginning of a dialogue relating to gun registration and sealing exiting loopholes which exist.
     
  7. shootingthebreeze

    shootingthebreeze Member

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    Smalls

    Extreme stands such as the NRA which will not bend an inch relating to common sense gun legislation could eventually cause a radical move by a US President who could enact an executive order which could severely curtail the Second Amendment. Compromise, bending, and making gun ownership safer in the US would avoid a radical approach by the US gov.
    If the US acts radically there is nothing you or I can do - the US Gov. has more weapons, automatic weapons, artillery, tanks, and a standing Army against which NO ONE here can fight no matter how many firearms and stocked ammo you have.
    We need to be opened minded, flexible and open to change.
     
  8. Midwest

    Midwest Member

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    The dialog for gun registration is simple. And that is not only should HB 4774 fail, but Michigan should also scrap it's handgun registration. As far as sealing "loopholes", are we talking "Universal Background Checks" (UBC) ?

    The same UBC that cost the offices of two politicians in Colorado. The same UBC which kept an honest citizen from getting her firearm back from the police? The same UBC that will lead to firearm registration and later confiscation?

    If you want dialog, you might want to ask the chapter leader of that 'Mom's' group about who funds the group. How much funding was made for this particular event. How much do the buses cost to bring in the group.

    Further dialog could include: What the purpose is of their organization really is. What other states has that chapter visited. What is their next agenda after this bill fails to pass.

    To sum things up. Here you have a group who is funded by a New Yorker and someone who is not even a citizen of the state of Michigan. And trying to influence policy on that state. And...you see nothing wrong with that?

    Interesting how you list your firearms and none of them include a AR-15 or an AK-47. Now you wouldn't be supporting restricting or having any of those rifles banned now...would you?
    .
     
  9. shootingthebreeze

    shootingthebreeze Member

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    If I wanted a rifle I would get a Weatherby 300 magnum with an excellent scope. I did see one when I was in Kentucky. AR 15 or AKs - I'm not attracted to them.
    There are a few other high quality rifles I saw there as well. I used to have a .270 in Germany and it was an excellent hunting rifle caliber.
     
  10. vamo

    vamo Member

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    So what do you think would happen is universal registration/background checks were passed tomorrow? Do you honestly believe the aforementioned groups would just declare mission accomplished and go home? The thing is they're going for the low hanging fruit because its possible, not because they believe we just need a "little more" gun control.

    Their strategy is death by 1000 cuts. The best way to prevent the 2a from dying by 1000 cuts is to fight everything. I honestly fail to see the logic in your belief that supporting "common sense" restrictions now will result in a better future for U.S. gun ownership.

    And in regards to the ak47 clones and ar-15s its fine that you don't own them as a matter of your own personal preference, just hope you're fine with the rest of us owning them as a matter of our own personal preference.
     
  11. Midwest

    Midwest Member

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    I don't own either rifles myself, I would like to someday. But I do have an SKS with a standard capacity 30 round magazine. Speaking of rifles but more specific about hunting.

    I would like to clarify and mention that there is a lot of misinformation going around about the Second Amendment intent really is. It has nothing to do with hunting or sport shooting.

    It was considered by the framers to be an additional safeguard against an overly powerful central government. The right to bear arms preserves the natural right to defend against the loss of life, limb, or liberty caused by the criminal acts of others.

    There are some who are trying to erode that right on a daily basis. Like in the case of Mr Bloomberg who uses his personal funds to promote his extremist anti-gun beliefs by financially supporting anti-gun groups like Moms.

    Moms is really a front for Bloomberg's anti-gun agenda, and every gun owner who values their Second Amendment rights needs to stand up for those rights and oppose anti-gun groups like Moms and others.

    And it should make every gun owner in Michigan pissed off that an outsider like Mr. Bloomberg (who doesn't even live in Michigan) is trying to dictate the passage of laws and policy through his funding of anti-gun groups like Moms.
    .
     
  12. Pistola

    Pistola Member

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    Strongly disagree with OP
     
  13. greenmtnguy

    greenmtnguy Member

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    Mom's may as well be called "Bloomberg's Trojan Horse", as that is what they all hope it would be. Oh, this and this and this are just small COMPROMISES for you, doesn't that make sense? Well, in my understanding of COMPROMISE, is that BOTH sides have to give up something, and I don't see any of Bloomberg's phony groups giving up on anything, simply trying to change tactics or attack from a different flank when thwarted on one front..
     
  14. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    Cannot disagree with the OP strongly enough. Common sense gun laws? Where have they gotten us so far? So pass a few more, disarm the law abiding even further. Create more gun free zones which we know criminals love. These laws, registration, background checks, no open carry, more PFZs... what effect will they have on the criminals who ignore them now? Will they do as history has proven and continue to ignore them, or will they have the Feinstein epiphany (no one here is armed, I'll just go ahead and turn myself in. Its human nature)? I'm side with history on this, and encourage more open carry in public.

    Its like beating a dead horse, with these anti gun folks. And yes, I consider the OP anti gun, or perhaps extremely misguided and painfully unaware of the facts behind his rhetoric.

    I have nothing else to contribute that would be considered High Road, here.
    :vomit:
     
  15. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    I retract my last statement, because I actually do have more to say.

    "As a gun owner (and CPL holder) I am also a supporter of gun sense in America. Just yesterday, a man killed an employee at the Rite Aid in Frandor, Lansing and shortly afterwards shot and killed another person in East Lansing."

    That Rite Aid, as most drug stores, are policy driven gun free zones. Just like the Walgreen pharmacy in Benton Harbor, only in that instance, the employee ignored the stupid policy that would have gotten him shot. My life is worth more than my job, but apparently not to Rite Aid. Bad policy that forcefully disarms people gets folks killed.

    "If stricter gun laws are not enacted, the Second Amendment itself will be in danger eventually. "

    No, it won't. The strict gun laws ARE the danger to the second amendment

    "Ignoring gun sense in America will eventually weaken the Second Amendment. No one here wants that including me."

    No, it won't. The only thing that will weaken the second amendment are the people who actively campaign against it, those who support them, and those who do nothing to stand in their way. The second amendment needs active efforts to infringe upon it. People like you.

    "Several things are a concern, one in particular. As a CPL holder there are rules as to prohibited areas such as schools, places of worship. Some here in Michigan have gone around the rules and just open carry."

    Its not going around the rule. Its abiding by the law, as it is written.


    "HB 4774 addresses that, which would prohibit open carry in such places. Myself, I feel that open carry anywhere is not necessary in 2014-where is the OK Corral?"

    Because open carry by licensed CPL holders in these areas has become such a problem. Can't go a day without reading about some event where a law abiding citizen.... oh wait. Never mind. The licensed to carry, law abiding citizens are not, have not been, and are unlikely to ever be the problem as it relates to violent crime.
    You see no place for open carry? There is an entire state outside East Lansing, most of it rural farmland. My neighbors don't bat an eye when they see me out in my yard with a shotgun slung over my shoulder. No one bats an eye out on the trail when I was hunting morels and had a pistol OCd on my hip, and none of the patrons of the restaurant I took my family to afterwards made a big deal about my clearly displayed pistol. Law abiding citizens still are not the problem. Pistol hunting is perfectly legal, and its a bit awkward, difficult and stupid to conceal an 8" .44 mag just because OC has a blanket prohibition. The deer will appreciate it.

    "I have seen more open carry in the Lansing area and I cannot see its justification."

    You are entitled to your opinion, just don't be surprised when people disagree. Unlicensed open carry is legal. I know personally the effect it has on folks. Most other law abiding citizens have no issues with it. Criminals don't particularly like it, though.
    Here is some justification for you. Self defense. As a CPL holder, you are aware of the expense of obtaining the license. $105 for the permit, roughly $100 for the training, not to mention possible time taken off work to complete it. For many, its expensive enough to afford the gun and a box of ammo. An extra $200+ sitting around would be great, but its a hard justification to many people struggling just to get by. So while not ideal, an open carried Hi Point may be all some people can afford to defend themselves. Self defense isn't just for the affluent who can afford it. I was poor, broke and open carrying a Hi Point at a time in my life where I could not afford better. And with death threats made against me and my family, it was better than nothing.

    I have yet to see any positive effects from any of the previously passed common sense gun laws, and I have sincere doubts that I'll see any positive effects if this garbage legislation passes. The fact that Moms Demand Action supports it is reason enough to do the opposite.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  16. kwguy

    kwguy Member

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    So now we have another little catchy anti-2a phrase: gun sense.

    Please stop. It's just Bloomberg trying to push his agenda.
     
  17. Midwest

    Midwest Member

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    Are you aware that Mr. Bloomberg is against YOU carrying.

    "http://www.wnd.com/2004/02/23223/

    ..... Bloomberg continued: “I am against people carrying guns. ".........


    So tell us why are you supporting a group which is funded by a person who is against YOU carrying a gun?

    .
     
  18. BryanDavis

    BryanDavis Member

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    Shootingthebreeze, are you aware that once Moms Demand Action is done going after other people's guns they are eventually going to come for your guns and your CPL right?
     
  19. cambeul41

    cambeul41 Member

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    I know that sarcasm often fails on the net, but since you have been warned, let me give it a shot:

    Exactly correct! So why are you doing it?
     
  20. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    Shootingbreeze, are you aware that Tom Ridge, former DHS director and Governor, just quit Bloomberg's group because he thought their views were too extreme.

    Ridge by the way, recently reaffirmed his support for banning guns and standard magazines - and yet he thinks Bloomberg's agenda is too extreme. Think about that for a second. When you support Moms Demand Action, that is what you are supporting.

    The NRA is taking an extreme stand? What part of their policy strikes you as extreme because your characterization of them as opposing all gun control is flat out wrong. The NRA has supported Project Exile. They are the reason we have NICS.

    Frankly, I don't think you deserve to own any firearms if you don't support NRA; because without them you wouldn't have that option.
     
  21. SilverCat

    SilverCat Member

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    As I understand it, we are to oppose any and all arms regulation, other than selling to non-citizens or those who commit felonies, of course. (Some felonies are just ridiculous too)
     
  22. Robert

    Robert Moderator Staff Member

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    What absolute tripe.
     
  23. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    The OP claims a strategy involving surrendering gains to Antis will be effective in "saving" the 2A. They've not explained how the 2A would be threatened since no knowledgeable legal or constitutional expert now sees the 2a as being able to be removed or modified to restrict the individual right interpretation. They've also not presented an argument that the history of progress in advancing RKBA should be considered as stymied. Recent state decisions in NY and CT are expected to be reversed as those n CO will almost certainly be reversed in the next election. They also don't explain the need for change in the face of continuously declining violent crime and homicide rates over the past two decades while sales of the firearms Antis want to restrict or remove from private ownership have grown at the same time AND while more states have made carry legal and based on Shall Issue instead of May Issue during the decline in murder as shown by both the DOJ and CDC. .
     
  24. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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  25. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    Just another who has swallowed the anti rhetoric. OP claims Moms don't want to take away anyone's guns... seriously? They are funded by Bloomberg, who has openly stated his hostility to the 2A, and openly made it known he thinks we should not own guns, let alone carry one, licensed and registered or not. With any organization whoever holds the funds, holds the power. MDA and other anti groups were on the edge of extinction until Sandy Hook, but even that wasn't enough to push through federal level gun laws. CO had two successful recalls and one person resign before a recall due to anti gun legislation. The NY SAFE act was a rushed and jumbled mess that has already been successfully challenged in court. CThas experienced mass noncompliance to registration. I think we've had enough "common sense" gun laws.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2014
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