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HD arsenal to include PCC?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by 9mm+, May 8, 2013.

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  1. 9mm+

    9mm+ Member

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    My primary go-to HD gun is my Benelli pump with a mounted flashlight and a mix of buck and slugs. I also keep my S&W Model 10 and Springfield XD40 nearby as well, but given the time, I am going to grab the Benelli first. Lately, though, I've been thinking a lot of consolidating calibers to include a good defensive sidearm and rifle combination for use in short-defensive perimeters. I've concluded that I need a good pistol-caliber carbine (PCC) in .40 to complement the XD40. The problem is that there are so few options available, and what is around is very expensive (with some exceptions like the KelTec but that cost is climbing, too).

    Yes, I have EBR's in various calibers and I tote those around quite a bit in outdoor shoots. If I really felt myself in a bind, though, I would rather have a single cailber that would serve both sidearm and rifle duties. Logistics is a big consideration to me. As for available models, the Beretta CX4 and KelTec Sub-2000 come to mind, but really there's not much else out there with the exception of a few lower-rate production models from other manufacturers.

    With everyone talking about HD loadouts, most of the focus has been on the AR platform. Nothing wrong with that, of course, and I'm a big fan of EBR's, but for toting around in tight quarters (I live in city limits), I would prefer a PCC and sidearm in the same caliber. With the HK MP5 being one of the most successful PCC's ever -- as well as one of the most popular guns ever made -- I'm surprised that the gun manufacturers haven't produced more models over the years. Instead of more PCC's coming out to complement sidearms, the trend is that more 5.56/.223 pistols are being produced to complement the AR rifles. A pistol of this nature seems a bit unwieldy to me, but then again I haven't shot one, so I'm only supposing on how it would handle.

    Well, I guess it's off to Gunbroker.com to find a CX4 or Sub-2K in .40S&W. There's slim pickings out there in .40 and what I do find is $$$$$. Oh well, I suppose it's the age we live in now... :(
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  2. LNK

    LNK Member

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    We don't do SHTF here......! Sorry...

    LNK
     
  3. 9mm+

    9mm+ Member

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    Right you are! The original intent was HD anyway, so I edited the first post to reflect that. Thanks!
     
  4. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    Thank you so much for the edit as I was just about to go full blown cranky old man on you. :)

    As for PCC, about 5 years ago I picked up a Ruger 9mm Police carbine so it would use the same ammo as my various 9mm pistols.

    Then I got a Marlin 357 lever action to go with my 357 revolvers.

    They have not replaced the 12 gauge for HD.

    I see there place as more of an outside combination when I am checking the fences and dealing with varmints.
     
  5. jim243

    jim243 Member

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    PCC's are well covered for those that fancy revolvers for a sidearm, with lever actions in 357, 41, 44 and 45, many are available. As you have noted semi-auto PCC's are a little more difficult to find, the most popular being the Kel-Tec, Hi Point and Beretta models.

    My personal choice was the Hi-Point 4095 in 40 S&W, but not because I like that caliber in pistols (Sold both of mine). My choice in pistol caliber handguns is the 45 ACP.

    Use of a PCC for home defense is a use that I personally do not like. They are large, heavy and less than handy in close quarter spaces of a home, a good pistol will allow you to have more flexibility in tight situations. But that is just my personal opinion.

    They are handy however when tramping outdoors, however most find no problem carrying ammo for two calibers when outdoors since the use of a rifle and handgun have two different functions and capabilities when roaming the woods. The effectiveness and range of each will be different a you should chose the most effective weapon for each purpose.

    PPC's while fun to shoot are not the end all solution to all situations but are one way to standardize on a single caliber to carry. Just remember that these are SHORT range firearms and not designed for long range jobs.

    One reason the AR's are more popular as carbines is the larger mag capacity these guns provide. I am limited to 10 rounds for the Hi-Point 4095, with the Kel-Tec you can use Glock 33 round mags, but only for the 9mm model, what the 40 S&W model will use I do not know.

    Good luck on your search.
    Jim
     
  6. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    I wouldn't say that at all. The MP5 was the most popular submachine gun of the 80s-90s, but had very little presence as a semi-auto PPC. Secondly, while it was very popular, it was so because it had a hi-speed/low-drag Seal Team 6 reputation, not because it was a fantastic carbine. In fact, if you polled 100 shooters, it's quite likely that 95+ of them have never even seen one in the flesh, let alone shot it. So that grand reputation is 2nd or 3rd hand hearsay.

    You can say it has better ergos than the Uzi which it replaced in most groups using such items back at the end of last century, but all such things have been superseded by the much more flexible and practical AR platform now, for 99% of those same users, as well as everyone else.

    No, no. Those aren't being made as pistols to compliment an AR rifle. (You're thinking this is analogous to a Colt SAA in .45 Colt to compliment a lever action rifle in the same cartridge? Totally different.) Those are being made as stand-alone range toys, or as a functional firearm that you can play with while you wait for your Form 1 paperwork to come back so you can put a stock on it. They are NOT, EVER, IN ANY WAY, a practical compliment to a full-sized rifle. No one carries an AR "pistol" as a companion to their M-4 or AR-15!

    LOL! SEEMS? :) And how.
     
  7. 9mm+

    9mm+ Member

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    Correct, but I was not distinguishing between civilian/semi-auto only and police/military/SOF, etc. Just the model overall in terms of production quantities and years of service. Sorry for any confusion...should've made that distinction up front.

    Of course, I agree with you, but while these are range toys to experienced users, there is a growing interest by a lot of well-meaning but ill-informed shooters to have a rifle-caliber pistol as an overgrown "sidearm". From the last gunshow I attended, there was way too much talk of this. I'm not defending that decision as being wise, but just saying that it's happening in several circles. :)
     
  8. InkEd

    InkEd Member

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    Sig has that new one coming out. Look on their site.
     
  9. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Hmmmm... Really? Wow. Like a real sidearm? To be carried? As a defensive item?
     
  10. 9mm+

    9mm+ Member

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    True, but I put my students through high-stress situations to simulate home invasions, etc., and during the drill, their ability to steady their pistols is questionable at best when their adrenaline is running wild. A shoulder-fired weapon is preferred for steadying their aim. I do prefer a shotgun for this, but the PCC would be a great alternative as well.
     
  11. 9mm+

    9mm+ Member

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    Most of them carry them as a low-slung pistol from a tactical sling. It looks weird. The gun of choice appears to the KelTec PLR and some of the 7.62 "pistols". They also keep them in bedside cabinets and many of them have said that it was their go-to choice for HD. I'm never one to disparage others for their choice of guns, so I won't pass judgment for their choices, but it's not something that I would adopt. A fun range gun, yes, but not for much else. At least, not for me. :)
     
  12. 9mm+

    9mm+ Member

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    Great news, thanks! I love Sigs. The only Sig I own is a P238 for my pocket carry, but I would save up and buy a Sig PCC if they made it.

    I just looked at the Sig site, and it looks like their new PCC is called the "MPX". There is only one non-LE/Military variant available, but it appears that they haven't named that model yet or posted any info about it. The ones they have listed are all submachine guns/SBR's for LE/Military. I'll keep checking for when they release the civilian model.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  13. 9mm+

    9mm+ Member

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    I had forgotten about that Ruger police carbine and I will see if I can find one in .40S&W. Ruger discountinued production seven years ago, but there might be enough on the secondary market to pick one up.
     
  14. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    This is an area I'm very interested in, as it is a hotly debated topic in my circles. The most prevailing wisdom is that long guns are easier to make hits with than handguns, and so are the hands-down preferred choice for a defensive weapon. "Use your pistol to fight your way to your long gun," and so forth. This seems to be almost unquestioned, by anyone.

    Except me. :eek:

    I put on rifle and shotgun stages in our IDPA matches very regularly, and every month we put 30-40 people through our shoot house with rifles, shotguns, and pistols. And I've yet to see corrected times that consistently show better/faster engagement of threats with the long guns at home/self-defense distances than with handguns.

    I KNOW I can't do it, but I try and toss out my own experiences because I probably shoot 500 rounds of pistol ammo for each shotgun shell or rifle cartridge. (Mixed targets out to 20 yards, using cover, moving, etc, -- I'll cut my rifle/shotgun times by 1/5 or so switching to a handgun.)

    And maneuvering and using cover with a long gun just is not as easy.

    But...there's that conventional wisdom chewing on me every time I say so! :)
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  15. pockets

    pockets Member

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    Don't forget the 'Marlin Camp Carbine'. It was made in .45acp and 9x19.
    The .45 used 1911 magazines.
    The 9mm accepted S&W 59xx magazines...lots of options with those.

    Weren't some Kel Tec Sub 2000 carbines produced which used S&W 59xx series magazines?
    .
     
  16. stumpers

    stumpers Member

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    The commonality of ammo for both sidearm and long gun matters less to me than having the most effective long gun I can have. The pistol is primary when I only have a pistol. The pistol is very much secondary when I have a rifle handy.
     
  17. 9mm+

    9mm+ Member

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    Interesting comments, Sam, thanks, and something of strong debate in a lot of circles. I agree with your comments. A lot of whether people choose a pistol or rifle (PCC, etc.) or shotgun for HD depends on their comfort level. As for me, if I'm alert and awake, I go for my shotgun first. However in my dead-of-night/half-asleep mode, I reach for my S&W Model 10 (with Federal +P loads). The reason why is that the big hammer, big trigger guard and Hogue grips make it very easy to maneuver with a foggy brain. For the students I teach, they often conclude that a shoulder gun is their best bet after I put them in the high-stress drill. If they're that nervous in the drill, there's no telling what their aim would be if the real thing went down.

    For those students that feel that a shotgun is just too much for them to handle (and there's a few of them that admit that openly), a carbine with a 16" barrel is a good option. Shoulder-fired but not too unwieldy like a long gun is in tight quarters. For me, I love the portability and size that a PCC offers with the advantages of higher muzzle pressure and better accuracy.

    I'm now on Gunbroker looking at the Ruger Police Carbine, as well as Beretta CX4, in .40S&W. Unfortunately, most of the prices range $800-1000. Ouch!

    I felt the same way until recently when trying to buy ammo for anything. Seems like .40 is more available than other calibers. .22LR? Forget it. But until the gun/ammo climate changes for the better, ammo logistics is top-of-mind for me. I can stockpile .40's for practice/plinking and use both pistol and rifles for training, drills, etc. Maybe when things change for the better, I will go back to diversifying more calibers.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  18. mdauben

    mdauben Member

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    I can see your line or reasoning and I have given a lot of thought to caliber consolidation myself. While it can simplify purchasing, storage, etc. I think you can reach a stage of simplifcation where it starts to do more harm than good. For "field" work, only needing to deal with the logistics of one set of ammo is very attractive, but in a HD scenario I do see this as a secondary concern. Is it really much more difficult to buy and store 500 rounds of .40 and 500 rounds of 5.56, as opposed to 1000 rounds of .40 alone?

    In the case of a PCC, though, I really see them mainly as a back up weapon. Nice to have if/when you are short of rifle ammo, but IMO is definetly a second choice to a rifle caliber carbine or EBR for HD. The EBR has more range, more capacity, and arguably more "stopping power" for want of a better term. Given the choice, I'll pick the EBR every time over the PCC.
     
  19. 9mm+

    9mm+ Member

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    Good feedback, Mike, thanks. The rationale you listed is very sound and perhaps the reason why the Ruger Police Carbine never sold well to the police forces (they used their money to buy more AR's). I have enough rifle caliber ammo to outfit a small army, but I'm being very conservative in using it because the supply is so tight. Whenever I pop into our local Gander Mtn, I see plenty of .40's on the shelf, which is what got my gears in motion about purchasing a PCC in .40 to match with my Springfield XD.

    Then again, as my wife often points out, I say a lot of things to justify a new gun purchase, much of which doesn't pass the "BS Test" from my significant other. ;) So I'll admit it...I just want a PCC for my ever-increasing collection. :D
     
  20. Warp

    Warp Member

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    The pistol caliber carbine has it's place.

    As soon as I can get my wife some training time with rifles (she has only really shot handguns so far), I think we'll be picking up a pistol caliber carbine to supplement her HD handgun. A PCC can be more effective (both in terminal ballistics and ease of use) than a handgun as well as smaller/lighter/easier to shoot (less recoil and noise) than a rifle caliber.

    Given any kind of option, if somebody is invading our home I'm still reaching for the 5.56, personally. But that doesn't mean a PCC wouldn't be just right for somebody else.
     
  21. 9mm+

    9mm+ Member

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    Yep, 100% with you. Now if only I can find one for sale that isn't pushing a grand... :) The price shows that there is more demand for the PCC than the supply can meet. My friend at a local gun shop says that the Beretta CX4's go quickly as soon as they come in.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  22. mdauben

    mdauben Member

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    Yes, that's definetly one factor in favor of the PCC, and a good reason to own one! Hopefully this is a relativly short term situation, however, and availability of 5.56×45mm, 7.62x39mm, etc. will bounce back. <fingers crossed>
     
  23. Warp

    Warp Member

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    Availability will definitely bounce back. And even now it's out there, it's just more expensive for the time being.

    Plus if you are prepared you ought to be able to go for a year without buying ammo. And not because you simply stopped training/shooting.
     
  24. Akita1

    Akita1 Member

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    My HDW is a .45 HK USC. It used to be a 12G, but can't sweep the hall with babies at the other end. Yes, it was a tad expensive but must say I practice with it as much as I do my pistols, if not more. It has become my go-to trusted ally, plus I have a halfway landing on my stairway so the upstairs has become quite the defensible ambush position. Also picked up a 20 rnd UMP mag at the gun show and filled it with the trusty SXT 230 grain perp slayer. All I need now are a couple of flash bangs...(jk of course). Also looking for the Cx4 Storm in .40 but the prices are not palatable at the moment. Shot a friend's a few weeks back and love the way it feels.
     
  25. Warp

    Warp Member

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    230gr .45 out of a carbine length barrel might just penetrate walls as much as/more than buckshot out of a 12 gauge. So be careful. Those .45 rounds will probably go right through your interior walls like a hot knife through butter, and babies on the other side of the wall would be risk.
     
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