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HD in suburban environment: AR15 vs Shotgun

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Creature, Aug 12, 2017.

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  1. Creature

    Creature Member

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    I used to be of the opinion that a 18" pump shotgun was the way to go for serious home defense against motivated and resolute home invader/s. After I had the opportunity to handle both a shotgun and an AR15 carbine in a realistic training environment, I came to the conclusion that a run of the mill AR-15 carbine is far more effective in all areas of concern in regards to CQB and home defense: magazine capacity, maneuverability, reliability, speed, platform customization...and, most importantly for the civilian defender, accuracy of fire. For me, it was a no brainer.

    Another real eye opener was to actually see how 223 compared to how 00 buck and slugs penetrated drywall and 2x4 modern dwelling construction and the very real possibility of endangering family and close proximity neighbors that the shotgun demonstrated repeatedly.

    Very recently I ran into a colleague who I have respected for a very long time for his experience and knowledge. I was very surprised to learn that he favors a 12ga self-loading shotgun loaded with 00 Buck as his weapon of choice for HD. To this day he believes that the shotgun is superior to the AR15 carbine in terms of power and effectiveness of the one-shot-stop...and was of the opinion that accuracy, capacity and maneuverability are grossly over-hyped these days.

    I know this subject has been discussed in the past ad nauseum, but I am still interested in hearing from both sides of the fence on the shotgun vs AR15 for HD debate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  2. JONWILL

    JONWILL Member

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    00 Buckshot.

    I use a Remington 1100.

    Maximum range in my house is 7 yards.

    Unless they are wearing body armor they are dead with a center mass hit.

    Don't worry about capacity. It should be over in 5 shots or less. If they aren't hauling ass after the first couple of shots you are probably being invaded by Delta and will die anyway.
     
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  3. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

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    Either can serve the role, but in an urban environment it would be wise to go with the weapon that has less chance of over penetrating. Turns out that against any serious shotgun loading an AR will usually outperform. That it also is simple to operate and carries several times more the amount of ammunition are advantages not to be sneezed at. Of course, given someone proficient with a shotgun and unfamiliar with the carbine, shotgun is the one that naturally makes more sense.
     
  4. George Dickel

    George Dickel Member

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    I saw a picture of a man that had been shot once at close range with a 12ga shotgun using 00 buck. It was a massive wound that killed him immediately. A shotgun is an very effective and intimidating weapon.

    Added: There are typically 9 pellets in a 00 12 ga shotgun shell each weighing about 53 grains each.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
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  5. Creature

    Creature Member

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    Intimidation is a crap shoot. Literally.
    That "5 shots or less" argument has no legs and has been dealt with even more than the AR15 vs Shotgun debate. The speed advantage of reloading an AR-15 compared to a tube-fed shotgun is undeniable.
    At HD distances, M193 will cleanly and easily penetrate Level III armor and still be lethal with no problem. Yet M193 performed well in terms of less over-penetration inside of a modern built dwelling. Conversely, I witnessed 12ga slugs that had sailed through many layers of drywall and 2x4's but were easily stopped by Level III armor hit with multiple slugs from as close as 6ft.
     
  6. goldpelican

    goldpelican Member

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    ... how many home invasion incidents were perpetuated by people wearing body armor that required the homeowner to fire more than five shots?
     
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  7. George Dickel

    George Dickel Member

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    At HD distances, M193 will cleanly and easily penetrate Level III armor and still be lethal with no problem. Level III armor will stop multiple slugs from as close as 6ft.[/QUOTE]

    And how many walls is that bullet going to penetrate? In a HD situation you want to make sure you don't kill a neighbor or two in the process.
     
  8. glc24

    glc24 Member

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    A person or persons high on something are a different breed. You could be holding a bazooka and they wouldn't care.
     
  9. glc24

    glc24 Member

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  10. Creature

    Creature Member

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    George, reread my last post.

    5.56 is well known for fragmenting upon contact with building materials mostly because of bullet design and its high velocity causing rapid fragmentation. This is actually safer to innocent bystanders who may be in close proximity. Compared to 00 Buck and slug, which penetrate building materials much more readily, the 223 is the clear winner for the civilian home defender. You pose a much bigger threat to your innocent neighbors when you are armed with a shotgun than an AR15 carbine. I suggest you make your way over to the "Box O' Truth" website for more detailed and indepth research.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  11. Creature

    Creature Member

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  12. George Dickel

    George Dickel Member

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    I read the cited tests and they only used soft point ammo not FMJ.
     
  13. glc24

    glc24 Member

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    Seems to me, for home defense SP is what you'd want to use anyway.
     
  14. George Dickel

    George Dickel Member

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    I agree but when advocates of the AR as an HD weapon don't take into consideration that many shooters use inexpensive FMJ ammo for plinking and would use the same thing in their HD application. It should be pointed out that SP should be the choice for HD ammo when advocating for the AR. The same goes for a shotgun, it's use should be with lighter buckshot than anything like 00. I didn't mean to give the impression that I was encouraging the use of 00 buckshot, I only wanted to point out that 9 pellets weighing 53 grains each is quite a bit of firepower the same as it was pointed out that M193 ammo in an AR will penetrate body armor. I don't own a shotgun but do own an AR.
     
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  15. glc24

    glc24 Member

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    Yes, I agree. A lot of AR owners wouldn't even think twice about shooting FMJ's in their house. But I do remember seeing tests(can't find them) using hollow point and FMJ 5.56. The FMJ's surprisingly would fragment also when hitting soft drywall.
     
  16. George Dickel

    George Dickel Member

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    Here are a couple good videos.



     
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  17. George Dickel

    George Dickel Member

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    Here are some more videos.



    This one covers the 12 ga shotgun



    This video covers the M163 5.56 round.
     
  18. hdwhit
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    hdwhit Member

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    Huh?

    To reload an AR-15, you have to drop a magazine, fetch the new one, get it into the magazine well and then find and release the bolt catch.

    To reload a shotgun, you simply push rounds into the tube at any time the opportunity presents itself.

    Four steps for the AR versus one step for the shotgun strongly suggests that the speed advantage will rest with the smaller number of discrete steps, so, yeah, it may well be quite deniable.

    When you opened this thread, you said you wanted to hear from both "sides", yet no more than four posts later here you are advocating for one "side" against the other.

    Are you really wanting a discussion?

    Or are you looking the "evangelize" on behalf of the AR and argue with anyone who prefers a shotgun?

    If it's an argument you're looking for, there is no shortage of people on this forum that will give it to you. But at the end of the day while the question can be discussed ad nauseum there can never be a definitive answer as to whether an AR or a shotgun is the "best" choice for use in an unspecified Home Defense situation because there are no parameters to determine what is "best" and that means all that will be accomplished is a lot of tail-chasing.

    Enjoy your Sisyphean argument guys, as for me they just took some fresh-baked garlic rolls out of the oven, so I know where my attention is going to wander.
     
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  19. Creature

    Creature Member

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  20. Creature

    Creature Member

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    Seriously?
     
  21. Creature

    Creature Member

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    I'm looking for serious discussion.
     
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  22. Creature

    Creature Member

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    I know what a combat reload is. But combat reloads assume a lot. What if the opportunity never arises and you empty your shotgun? I guess reaching for, manipulating, inserting each and every single shotgun round doesn't count as steps?
    I guarantee that I can do a complete reload with a fresh magazine from my back pants pocket into my empty AR15 than you can reload your 1100 with shells from a box on a table right in front of you.
     
  23. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Uh..........what?o_O
    Your "comparison" of the steps involved are laughable. Only "one step" in reloading a shotgun?:rofl:

    AR- after firing 20-30 rounds, the magazine is dropped as you reach for your spare. Spare is inserted and bolt released. No need to reload until you've exhausted another 20-30 rounds.
    vs.
    Shotgun- after firing 4-8 rounds, you reach for your spare rounds, extract from side saddle and insert. ONE AT A TIME!
    Where are your extra rounds that are not in a side saddle? A dump pouch? On a bandolier or sling? Loose in a pocket?

    Reloading when "the opportunity presents itself" applies to any firearm. As far as ease of reloading under stress.....finding and inserting an AR mag is much easier than the fine motor skills required to load a shotgun shell one at a time. With a thirty round AR mag all one needs is to properly seat the mag ONCE. Reloading a shotgun requires that you perform that fine motor task repeatedly.
     
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  24. JONWILL

    JONWILL Member

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    From what I have gathered.

    5.56 will fragment in drywall and won't penetration much.

    00 Buckshot will go through most building materials and kill those behind it.

    So 00 Buckshot will deny cover to perps while 5.56 won't

    Made my choice of a shotgun even better
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
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  25. JohnBiltz

    JohnBiltz Member

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    I think they are both good to go with advantages both ways. A solid torso shot with a shotgun is going to make a stop almost always. Doctrine with an AR is to make multiple hits until the threat stops and close up 5.56 does serious damage particularly if your not using ball. An AR is pretty expensive, a shotgun is not. Lot of bang for your buck with a shotgun. I don't believe I would fear being under armed with either.

    I think you would be very hard pressed to find a story of a home defense situation where 5 rounds from a shotgun or a 30 round magazine was not enough ammo. At home defense distances you are going to win or lose with what is the gun, I don't see reloading entering into it, its too close and its going to be over too fast.

    If I had a shotgun and was very familiar with its use I would not go out and buy an AR for home defense. If I had an AR for other purposes I would use it for home defense though. I made the switch several years ago but it was not why I bought an AR and I had pretty much stopped shooting my shotgun and had lost proficiency. Loaded 3 magazines with TAP to stop over penetration and that is what I keep in and with the gun.
     
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