HD shotgun... Pistol grip or standard stock?

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A good sticky with input from both sides is a good idea no matter what page it's on, and if someone asks about PGO's they could be directed to the sticky.
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Well, we've certainly discussed such things over and over, but the problem is we have so very many topics that "should" just be stickied so we don't have to whip that dead horse so many times:

9mm vs. .40 vs. .45
AR vs. AK
Controlled-Round-Feed vs. Push-Feed
Cocked -N- Locked vs. empty gun?
Mossberg 500 vs. Remington 870?
Are Taruses crap?
What is 922(r)?
Are Glocks ugly?
Are 1911s the greatest pistol ever invented?
Glock Kaboom: Myth or Fact?
Can I carry: A sword, a switchblade, brass knuckles, poison darts, a sap, blackjacks, a grenade, yo' mama?
Is it ethical to ... pretty much anything?
IWB vs. OWB?
Couldn't we have a "politics" forum?
Aren't machine guns illegal?
Can I make my own machine gun?
IDPA vs. USPSA?
Tanfoglio vs. EAA vs. CZ?
Shouldn't we have an "Off Topic" forum?
Can I kill a deer with a .223?
Should I kill a deer with a .223?
Open carry vs. Concealed Carry?
Printing vs. Deep Concealment?
Is a .22 LR enough gun for ...?
WHAT CALIBER FOR BEARS!?!?
Several hundred other questions we really DON'T need to debate AGAIN,

...and...

Isn't a PGO shotgun just "TEH GR8EST?

But, then every forum would have 47.5 stickies at the top of every page and no one would EVER read any of them.

And, besides, there's so little that's truly new under the sun, what would we all talk about?

;)

-Sam
 
Justin said:
Criminy, this thread is still going?

FWIW, Sam1911 has pretty well summed up my motivations behind my posts.



The analogy with the tiger-repelling rock* was an obvious attempt to point up the specious reasoning in some of the posts made. There was no intent to draw a comparison between the effectiveness of a rock vs. a PGO shotgun as a weapon.

*Which originally appeared in an episode of The Simpsons, back when that show was still both funny and culturally relevant.
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Reminds me of the SAT's...

Rock is to Tiger as PGO Shotgun effectiveness is to HD.

;)

Al
 
I hate acronyms.

I have a Mossberg 500 which has no stock and a pistol grip. In its current configuration it's a novelty item and a fun gun to go shoot in the woods. I don't use it for hunting, I don't use it for HD, though if I had to I think I could make it work but I have better options.

That said, when I need a shotgun to "get the job done", whatever that job may be, I want something with a full stock, like my Remmy 870.

Of course, these are just my personal opinions. I'm sure folks disagree and that's ok.
 
No-stock shotgun, pistol grip only - Good or not?

I have never advocated the pistol grip only, no-stock shotgun. I believe it is too hard to control. BUT I am sure some out there have them and like them, and I would like to hear what you like and don't like about them.

Not talking about a pistol grip on a stock, or a folding stock but pistol grip (or cut down wood stock) only.

Thanks.

mark
 
The ONLY good thing I can think about them is that they're a lot easier to store in tight quarters; in a situation where you'd actually need to USE it, a stock makes all the difference in putting lead on target. Maybe on a boat, I'd find it moderately useful, but the rest of the time, a stock lets you be efective at ranges past 15 feet.
 
I suppose one can become quite skilled with such a shotgun, but by and large those that use them tend to be a much poorer shot with them than stocked shotguns that they can properly aim. Even aiming a pistol grip shotgun can be tenuous because of the instability of the hold.

It is pretty amazing to see by how much folks can miss at very short ranges with pistol grip shotguns.
 
dogngun said:
I have never advocated the pistol grip only, no-stock shotgun. I believe it is too hard to control. BUT I am sure some out there have them and like them, and I would like to hear what you like and don't like about them.

Not talking about a pistol grip on a stock, or a folding stock but pistol grip (or cut down wood stock) only.

Thanks.

mark
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The only PGO Shotty I've fired is the Serbu Super shorty, and taking a large draught of Macho BS before shooting it with my buddy, I brought 2 3/4" full loads of 00 buck and 3" Slug (it couldn't be that bad surely).

As mentioned above the large draught of Macho BS also required me to fire the first round one handed. The only time I've experienced a kick like that was once when I walked behind a horse and it hoofed my on the outside of my right wrist and that hurt for weeks. I got through the rest of the mag with the front grip and then ice-packed my wrist, since the macho BS was beginning to wear off. Then drove home wishing I had an automatic. Oh and my grouping was quite incredible at 15' it wasn't so much a group as a bunch of individuals, I'm not a terrible shot, I'm normally about 1/2 MOA above rifle limits.

I came to the conclusion that it was not an effective weapon for me. If it was the only weapon I had for self defense, then I'd try to sneak out without being seen, or club the guy with it.

YMMV IANAL and usual disclaimers.
 
THanks. I learned and carried a M-12 in the Army back in the stone age-

1970-and have never even fired a PGO gun. Only advantage I can see is concealment or packing in a tight space. When I carried a shotgun in the Army, it was full wooden furniture with a heat shield and steel buttplate.
I still like the weight and simplicity...My bedside gun is a Mossberg 500, 19" barrel with a bead sight that I cut finished and installed, standard wood stock and a butt cuff. Off the gun is a bandolier full of 00 buck and 10 rifled slugs. I don't like extra weight or protruding objects, or anything I'd have to think about ar 3 AM in the dark when the dog starts barking.

If I have a need to carry a shotgun under my raincoat, I'll try a PGO.

Thanks - sorry I missed this thread before I started another one.

Also, the Combat Shotgun sticky is just great-Thanks for that, too.

mark
 
It keeps me company on the passenger side when I have no choice but to venture into some of the scarier urban neighborhoods. Other than that....it's just fun to shoot. And I keep it next to my bed at night. I'd rather have the old 870 with a full stock I sold years ago though.
 
PGO shotguns are garbage for anything but a range toy. Get something with a folding stock, and see how often you feel like shooting it without the stock.
 
PGO shotguns are garbage for anything but a range toy. Get something with a folding stock, and see how often you feel like shooting it without the stock.
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While I don't believe that PGOs are as effective as a shotgun with a traditional stock, the argument that they are garbage, if you'll forgive me, is garbage. :)

I think that store owner in New York did just fine with a PGO, but you won't find me using such a weapon.
 
Would that be the 72 year old store owner who pulled out a Win. pump PGO that had been sitting there for almost 30-years and fired three bursts, killing two robbers as well as wounding two others who were followed by their blood trail and and recognized by the community and captured, respectively, late last year? Good Guy Gus the NY papers dubbed him.

Nah, pistol grip only shotguns are unmanageable and useless!

LOL It was this old man that inspired me to reconsider writing PGO's off, and I personally had a compelling interest in building one...

Al
 
On my 870, I have old school walnut in police configuration (it's an ex-LE piece). Works well for me. At one time I was considering a folding stock with pistol grip as I was living in a van at the time, but ended up keeping the walnut due to expense of changing over.

Now that we have a roof over our heads, the walnut stock makes more sense to me.
 
You practice , you get good. I'm a pg believer but i practice plenty with both. I have both. Different stocks for different moments if you have the luxury of choosing. If not get good with both.
My 870 MM with a knoxx breachers grip ,sliding pg is the best pg out there. A great product that can help you be real accurate with average amounts of practice. I never believed that anti pg bs anyway.
If your cold with both stocks than the conventional full stock will definately help you follow up better but cutting inches off the length is a good thing when moving through a dwelling.
Practice Practice Practice
 
Get something with a folding stock, and see how often you feel like shooting it without the stock.
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Been there done that, the folder is great, use it all the time, makes it smaller, more portable, great for backpacking, and storage...but it is always shot with stock unfolded, absolutely no reason that I have found not to. I think a shorter LOP and/or a folding/collapsing/retracting stock is fine (and often beneficial), but a stock in some form is not optional for me.

:)
 
Hey guys... Let me first apologize for a few of my posts on Saturday. I worked all day and then hung out with a couple of buddies after work... Jack and Coke. :rolleyes:

Then I rejoined the thread and realized there were a lot of opinions and tried my best to get into the discussion and provoke debate but I didn't do a very eloquent job of that and I apologize for that.

I started the thread because I do not know very much about the subject and knew that I would get a lot of information from those that know a lot more than me. I appreciate all the responses and all the information and hope you guys will forgive me for being a ******. :p
 
On my last couple shooting outings with my Mossberg 500 I fired from the hip a couple times, or rather with the gun leveled at about mid-body and canted a little sideways. And I was able to reliably hit a man-sized target from general home-defense distances. So although a full stock is pretty much always better than a pistol grip, don't listen to those saying it will make you wildly inaccurate. At HD ranges it may not be the best, but it's usable. That being said, nine times out of ten I'd take a full stock over a pistol grip.
 
When I was a kid my dad had a 16 gauge single shot shotgun. It was too big for me to shoulder so I shot it from the hip. Nobody told me this was not a good way to shoot. I was just having fun. You might be surprised what you can do when nobody tells you that you can’t do something. As the years went by I got into shooting rifles and handguns more and didn’t shoot shotguns for a long time. After I had kids I bought a Mossberg 12 gauge (18 ½ inch barrel) that came with a regular stock and a pistol grip. A friend of mine wanted to go shoot and he brought some water bottles to shoot at. I brought the Mossberg with the pistol grip on it along. He set up a few water bottles and came back and noticed that I had brought the shotgun and said - What are you going to shoot with that? I said the water bottles and much to his surprise I did. Later I took my son to the shooting range I belong to and took some 2 liter water bottles and the shotgun along. I placed 5 bottles at random spacing (some higher some lower some further apart) on the dirt backstop and asked my son if he thought I could hit them with the shotgun. He didn’t think I could. I told him I had 5 shots and would shoot as fast as I could and see how many I could hit. I hit the first 4 and was a little left of the last one (a miss). I sold that shotgun later but I think I might by another soon.

I believe I could think of an occasion (close up) where a PGO shotgun would get the job done but I’ll buy one with a traditional stock. I shoot better all round with a traditional stock.
 
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I kind of though this topic had already been done to death here, but here goes:
I have a PGO Winchester Defender 12 gauge which I practiced with a lot to get good at firing from the hip. Even with slugs I can do a pretty darn good job hitting targets with it, even moving targets, but that doesn't mean I would be anywhere near as good in a HD situation with adrenaline pumping, etc. I do like it's compactness though, and it's always nearby when I'm at home in bed. I also have two 20 gauges, one PGO only and one shoulder stock. The 20s don't have near the recoil and put a lot of lead out so they may be a better choice if you really want to go with a PGO. As a few others noted, you can buy stocks which feature a pistol grip and a shoulder stock, which gives you the best of both worlds except for the increased length of the firearm. As was also mentioned, if a folding stock is legal in your area that may be the very best route to go as the gun's length is a non-issue in tight quarters like a hallway, but you can fire from the shoulder if you choose.
 
Another great, compact option is the classic...a double SxS with a short butt (that still offers good control), short barrels, and you can still maintain a short OAL due to the short action. They are also very quick to load in the unlikely event that you need more than two shots.

:)
 
If the PGO shotgun were such a good thing why don't you see them in 3-gun matches? Why don't you see them being carried by SWAT teams (the guy with the breaching PGO is using it for door breaching not as a fighting shotgun)? Why doesn't the military only purchase PGOs? The simple answer is that professionals know that there's no benefit to them so great that loosing the other performance characteristics are worthwhile.
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Hmmmm? I think my OP was about HD. I am sure that organized, tactical teams will usually possess different weapons than the general public. Especially considering that most tactical teams are "teams" AND "planning the attack"... not a victim of an attack in an HD situation.

I am sorry... but your comparison eludes me.
 
I am sorry... but your comparison eludes me.
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Well, that is an interesting point. Probably best to have a less effective gun if you DON'T know the attack is coming...???

-Sam
 
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