HD shotgun... Pistol grip or standard stock?

[Al LaVodka]

AMD...;
Two great posts. Of course a shotgun is more effective than a pistol (though I do have a 9x18 at hand) and if 72 year-old Goodguy Gus, my inspiration, could handle his 30 year old PGO after 20 years, then even Sam could with my low-recoil ammo, a ported barrel, a forearm strap, and a remote switched focused red tactical light. 20th Century meet 21st Century. Yes, with a little practice, even Sam.

With post #176 I am happy that this too shall pass...

Al

 

[Sam1911]

He heh, yup... Even Sam!

Just remember, my Mossburg wore a PGO for 10 years. I've fired Brenneke slugs one handed (not that bad ... the "broken wrist" hype is totally overblown). I've shot clay birds on the wing. I put a lot of rounds through it that way.

But I couldn't justify the crazy discrepancy in performance between that and the same gun with a full stock. I'm willing to try things, learn, and change, even after a lot of investment in doing something one way.

-Sam

 

[Maverick223]

For my day-to-day SD needs. I am perfectly satisfied with the M1 carbine and a 357 magnum or 9mm (lately, more likely to be the 357).

That must be a weird looking M1 Carbine with a PGO stock...I mean it is PGO...right?...because obviously the pistol grip only is the way to go, how else could you shoot the M1 Carbine in your staircase?

Another little detail: trenches are small, and sometimes crowded, yet trench shotguns (used in WWI and beyond) have full stocks...craziness I tell ya'...craziness. Those crazy soldiers just don't know what they are missing.

 

[rogerjames]

There is a difference between HD and competitive shooting. It is obvious that the competitive shooters are unable to take their cloaks off.

Reminds me of the newb that is told the .45acp is the only reliable weapon, because it is the man stopper! Then a little more research reveals that other calibers provide advantages such as greater capacity or greater concealability, etc. Of course the purists will never concede the advantages of a less effective weapon. And why would anyone ever consider anything less than the best?

 

[lobo9er]

this will present a more unnatural shooting position and will probably sacrifice some accuracy and possibly some speed with follow up shots, but I am thinking that this is a worthy tradeoff.

I would say your trading the most important things that are need in a HD gun for a minute amount of maneuverability. If you are a pro shooter its not a terrible idea but for avg guy its a terrible idea.

 

[amd6547]

No, my CMP M1 carbine does not have a pistol grip. I did experiment with a repro M1A1 WWII paratroop-type stock. Though I like folders, I found that I did not care for the WWII ergonomics of the M1A1.
The M1 carbine is actually shorter and lighter than my 18" Mossberg when the Mossberg wears a full stock, and much more so than the 20" Remington model 11 semi auto 12. I am satisfied with the performance of the 110gn SP 30 carbine round, and comforted by having 15 or 30 of them on board. Besides, I find that the carbine points like a finger.
As for trench guns wearing full stocks...they may have been issued that way, but some certainly did not stay that way. I have read of trench guns with the stock sawn off, as late as Viet nam.

 

[Sam1911]

There is a difference between HD and competitive shooting. It is obvious that the competitive shooters are unable to take their cloaks off.

We get CLOAKS? WHY was I not informed? Cloaks would be COOL!

Seriously though, when we set up our competitive shooting tests to emulate as closely as possible the realities of home-defense shooting, these "differences" that you claim become hard to define.

We aren't talking about International Trap here, or Sporting Clays. We're talking about cover drills, shooting on the move, working through shoot houses. The kind of thing that it might be a good idea to have tried once or twice before your moment-of-need.

I've had shooters start IN (simulated) BED. How much more "realistic" does it have to be to pass your relevancy test? Heck, I'd insist that they all start while actually asleep, but it makes the stages take too long to run!

Of course the purists will never concede the advantages of a less effective weapon. And why would anyone ever consider anything less than the best?

So we come back to a request that you define what these advantages of less effective weapons are? Concealability and/or smallest possible storage requirements -- that's IT. Maneuverability has been struck down as a possible advantage. The very questionable but plausible "ergonomics" issue can be met with a pistol-gripped full stock. What else is there?

-Sam

 

[amd6547]

A pistol gripped full stock shotgun, or even a folder, would not fit in the very unlikely place this $75 mossberg is stored, nor would it be nearly as handy in my small house. Note the SpeedFeed grip, and the Hogue overmolded fore end, both of which give better performance than any of the earlier set-ups I tried.

 

[Maverick223]

I do not doubt that it meets your storage situation...however you can argue all day that it is more effective, but that I cannot believe.

 

[amd6547]

"More effective" is your dynamic. Mine is "effective".

 

[RandKL]

however you can argue all day that it is more effective, but that I cannot believe.

That's where your problem lies, Mav. You and the rest of the anti-crowd keep falling back on this "more effective" crap like it's gospel. One guy continually tells us that "it's not the best at skeet" so that settles the debate in his opinion. See, I, and most of the pro-crowd I'd wager, don't really give a fart in a whirlwind about what *you* consider to be "more effective" or "best at skeet" yada yada yada. I ain't in the business of telling you what to think or do.

I can pick up any of the half a dozen or more pistol grip shotguns around my house and workshop and I know, without a doubt, that they'll be just as effective as I need them to be. More or less doesn't worry me. As effective as I need them to be is all I really look for.

My one post on the topic. I'm back to lurking.

Give 'em hell, Amd!

richard

 

[Maverick223]

That's where your problem lies, Mav. You and the rest of the anti-crowd keep falling back on this "more effective" crap like it's gospel.

I claim to be no expert with a shotgun, just going off of my own experience, and from what I can gather from those with more experience (both here and elsewhere). Oh yes I am a big-bad anti...I want to ban anything with a pistol grip. This is just the beginning of my nefarious agenda to rid the world of PGs...muha, ha, ha.

I ain't in the business of telling you what to think or do.

...but above you said...

That's where your problem lies, Mav.

...which is it? I think you're problem lies with being two-faced.

 

[[Pb]]

People are turning this into a debate of whether a PGO shotgun can be effective... no one will dispute that it is a formidable weapon. The important thing is that it is LESS effective than one with a full stock. So pick your poison, but just because something works doesn't mean it's the right tool for the job.

 

[MCgunner]

That must be a weird looking M1 Carbine with a PGO stock...I mean it is PGO...right?.

It was called the "Enforcer" and was made by Universal.....




My coach gun is pretty danged handy and when I have to shoot it, a full stock assures I can point it properly and not miss. I don't hunt doves with a pistol grip. I like to hit 'em now and then. Same for home defense.

 

[amd6547]

Yeah, I thought about the Enforcer also, but didn't want to get too OT...I also have read about M1 and M2 carbines in Viet nam having the barrel shortened to the same length and the stock sawn off to make a handy weapon for helo pilots.

 

[Al LaVodka]

I both shoot competitive shotgun, including straight thru a winter league, and I DO wear a cloak (when I do classes at one of the military academies).

The "anti" PGO side continues to Fire, Ready, Aim their opinion, knowledge, and skill.

Al

 

[Maverick223]

It was called the "Enforcer" and was made by Universal.....

Yep, but that isn't really an M1 Carbine...Universal...

 

[lobo9er]

i like pgo shotguns but all ya'll are saying you are a better, more effective shooter with a pistol grip shotgun than one with a full butt stock???

 

[amd6547]

That is exactly what I am NOT saying. I am saying that, at close range, I am effective enough to defend myself.
The M1 carbine Enforcer pistol, while OT, does fit into this discussion...It is an example of a non-standard firearm, one which is certainly not being taught or endorsed by any gun sensei, one which is not used by SWAT teams, yet a weapon which Universal manufacture notwithstanding, is very effective. In fact, the currently manufactured counterpoint is the Draco AK pistol, which has found a popular market in the US, and which is issued to some law enforcement in it's native country, Romania. Would a full stock or folding AK be a more effecive weapon? No doubt. Is a PGO Draco AK pistol an effective weapon at close range? Also, no doubt.

 

[2ndAmFan]

I don't claim to be a better shot using a PGO shotgun than one with a shoulder stock. I doubt many, if any people would be better, regardless of what they might say. I just like PGOs, and feel I have practiced enough to use one effectively in a HD situation. I've fired from the hip at stationary targets of various sizes and at man-sized moving targets, a lot, with both shotshells and slugs, practiced shooting from cover and concealment, fired my PGO from the shoulder quite a bit as well, etc. Practice may not make perfect, but it can make pretty darn good. Trying to make a quick turnaround in a tight hallway or cluttered room with a shoulder stock shotgun can be problematic...with a PGO it's a lot easier and quicker.

 

[UpTheIrons]

Get both, a pistol gripped full stock. Best of both worlds. You still get reasonable maneuverability in tight spaces with instant use if needed, and you still have the full stock.

This.

 

[shockwave]

Here - I've got an update. So last weekend I put the PGO Mossie 500 to the test at an outdoor range. With the grip braced against the hip recoil was fun and manageable. Held higher without bracing the gun wants to travel back and you're absorbing a lot of kick. Aiming is simple. For HD, at point-blank ranges this feels like a very effective weapon. A tactical SG with a full stock will obviously allow a greater variety of shooting positions.

So even before I do a full-stock test (I'm setting up to do one) I can see the general lines of the argument and the wisdom of at least having a folding stock available. In HD drills retreat to behind the bed and aim at the entry to the bedroom is the "last-stand" option, given weapon and room layout. Here, you really would want a shoulder stock because the barrel would be pretty much on the bed aimed at the door with as little of homeowner exposed.

You cannot get a PGO into a good position from this posture. You can aim and fire it, it will be OK, but the handgun would be better from this angle.

 

[WVMountainBoy]

My possibly worthless input on the age old question of choice between a PGO, full stocked, or hybrid stocked shotguns (hybrids will be stocks with pistol grip and/or collapsable stocked)
PGO-
Strength of this set-up lays in its compact length. It can be stored in tight confines and possibly manuevered in close quarters.

Weakness- During recoil the muzzle blast will torque in the wrist area of the users arm, usually causing muzzle rise taking the weapon off target and possibly causing discomfort and or injury. It has been demonstrated in youtube videos that if held too close to the facial area recoil can cause the shooter's own hand or the butt of the weapon to contact the face causing disorientation and/or injury.

full stocked
Strength - Traditonal stocks allign the weapon in most peoples normal sighting/aiming format. Stock translates recoil to the shoulder where it can be managed and the weapon kept relatively on target and no risk of muzzle blast causing the weapon to strike the face.

weakness- longer, requires additional storage space. Not as compact for tight spaces.

Thoughts on Hybrids.
There are too many variants to list a true strength/weakness. Singe most of these items combine the traits of the above listed stocks the same strengths and weakness will be prevaliant. However, since many of these collapsable models have moving parts, build quality could come into play and those that are a full stock with addition of a pistol style grip will still be longer than a PGO so require the larger storage space/handling room while adding the volume of the pistol grip to the storage equation.

The the age old argument is always going to be a matter of taste and what someone is comfortable with. I use traditional stocks as I've always had firearms with them. I have fired a PGO 12 gauge and was not comfortable with the recoil, thats not to say someone else wouldn't be.

 

[Jonah71]

Mossberg 12 ga Cruiser with factory pistol grip fits my needs. Only change I might make is to add a Tommygun style handle to the forearm for greater control.

Just bought one myself. Really good for HD with the Remington managed recoil 00. Very fun to shoot, and can be put on target quickly. A great buy imo.

 

[Leadhead]

200 posts and no lock down.....must be a record for a PGO thread!

It's nice to see a civil "highroad" discussion on PGO's for a change!

While I'm off topic,
Congrats to the US Women's Ski Team at the Olympics!
Mighty fine performance in the Downhill on a very tough course....