Quantcast

Head shots?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by glummer, Jul 25, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Lucky

    Lucky Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Messages:
    2,919
    Location:
    Calgary, near Rocky Mountains - Canada
    How do you know the people shot in the head who live, or -even more extreme- carry on the fight, are not simply statistical outliers? I've heard the proper target area is a triangle of the eyes and nose sockets. But a piece of lead smacking you on the skull will have some effect, no matter what.

    People also say windshields can stop or deflect bullets, but when you shoot a couple you may decide their supposed protective qualities are best left unused.


    P.S.
    Helpful friendly time: Balloons make good targets and you can let them drift or bounce around on a tether.
     
  2. 30mag

    30mag Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Where West meets South, Texas
    People who get shot in the head are statistical outliers merely because they get shot in the head.
    It is an rare occurrence to begin with. However, it still seems exceedingly odd that a (human) forehead would stop a bullet or deflect it. However, I've heard story's about feral hogs taking bullets to the head and shaking them off. However, the round involved is usually a .223 or .22-250 (in the stories I have heard).
    I usually pack a .30-06, so I'd like to think it's not a concern.

    Pack enough gun, and you don't have to worry about making ridiculous shots. Just COM.
     
  3. mcdonl

    mcdonl Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2008
    Messages:
    3,228
    Location:
    Southern Maine
    Most movements, of most animals (Human included) begin with the head moving. I have seen/had this same conversation in regards to hunting. It is instinct... for me anway. I find it un-natural to move my lower body and keep my head still.

    Such a small target. Seems silly.
     
  4. Hush

    Hush Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    61
    We do a lot of force on force using sims and airsoft. The only time we take purposeful headshots is when it is the only target available. Center Mass is much more reliable.
     
  5. Mr_Rogers

    Mr_Rogers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2008
    Messages:
    483
    While generally agreeing that a head-shot is chancy I think it is interesting that several recent police officer shootings have involved head-shots. Could it be that the BGs are going for head-shots since they are pretty much 100% certain that a police officer will be wearing body armor?
     
  6. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    10,401
    Location:
    Forestburg, Texas
    It could be that, publicity, or just a random spike. Cops have worn vests for 20 years or longer in most parts of the country, so this isn't anything new.

    There was discussion sometime back that maybe Iraqi's were targeting soldier's head because they knew the soldiers had on body armor and to prove the point, it was noted that a higher than normal percentage of US soldier deaths were head injuries. Thus, it would seem to prove the point that heads are being targeted. Then again, it may not be that heads are being targeted as much as heads are vulnerable and fewer people are dying from torso hits (as the torsos are more protected), not necessarily because of an increase in head shots.
     
  7. Marlin 45 carbine

    Marlin 45 carbine Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    2,477
    Location:
    South-Western North Carolina
    likely seems nuts to many here but I practice 'head shots' with my carry pistols useing a piece of 3/8" thick steel cut into 6"X4" oblong with a hole drilled through for mounting on a cardboard sillohuete target nailed to wood frame.
    I hit it very regularly.
     
  8. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    59,076
    Location:
    Eastern KS
    Nailed to a wood frame isn't bobbing & weaving though.

    A steel head nailed to a tree is just another stationary target.

    rc
     
  9. 30mag

    30mag Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Where West meets South, Texas
    I can put bullets into a six inch circle at a decent speed at 10 yards, but I can put them into a 8.5 by 11 sheet of paper faster.

    +1 RC.
     
  10. 30mag

    30mag Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Where West meets South, Texas
    Not entirely sure what that means.
    Where do you shoot a deer when you hunt? Not in the head.
     
  11. Erik M

    Erik M Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,660
    Location:
    Hails from Parts Unknown
    1. How would a jury react to a COM shot in self defense as opposed to a round through the attackers eye?

    2. Since pinpoint accuracy in a quickly unfolding situation is nigh impossible I recommend that you carry a large caliber CCW if you plan to penetrate an attackers skull.
     
  12. 30mag

    30mag Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Where West meets South, Texas
    Location, location, location... (of the jury)
     
  13. nitetrane98

    nitetrane98 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Messages:
    534
    Location:
    Longview, TX
    Maybe a big difference in feral and domestic hogs, size, etc. Dad used to walk into the pen at butchering time with a High Standard .22 pistol and put one right between their eyes straight on from a couple of feet. Might as well have been hit by lightning. Sometimes they kicked around a bit and we had to hold 'em to slit their throats but they never made it to their feet again.
    Actually, the forehead is the hardest part of the skull on a human. That's why the best head shot is below the eyes anywhere around the skull. You get to the cerebral cortex with something and it's lights out.
     
  14. 30mag

    30mag Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Where West meets South, Texas
    Probably not shooting the pigs in the forehead was a key part to the one shot. (a .22 in the eye is worth a .45 in the chest)
    Furthermore, if you don't want to shoot someone in the forehead, that would make the kill zone of the head even smaller.
     
  15. OurSafeHome.net

    OurSafeHome.net Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2009
    Messages:
    220
    Location:
    National Training Vendor
    He was hit at least once with a .303 round in the back of the head and made a successful forced landing!
     
  16. Texasborn

    Texasborn Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    23
    COM makes the most sense to me. My 2nd or 3rd may be to the head. A bullet can possibly not penetrate either way. I knew a guy in high school who recently took a .45 to the chest from a few feet away in a high school field house. He called the office and warned them and got the school locked down instead of calling 911. His sternum deflected the bullet away from his heart. He is coaching college football now. He's a big guy.
     
  17. Lucky

    Lucky Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Messages:
    2,919
    Location:
    Calgary, near Rocky Mountains - Canada
    Statistical outliers. How about that guy in Tyler Texas, Mark Wilson, who came across a crazy gunman shooting up a court house, and threw down on him with his .45? BG was wearing double flak jackets, and Wilson accidentally chose his getaway vehicle for cover. Bad situation.

    I guess it would make sense to shoot COM if you would miss otherwise, or if missing meant hitting an unsafe backstop.

    Also I'd like to request more details or sources on this phenomena of the head bobbing around. I watched people's heads where I shoot and even on the move they're pretty linear targets. Might have something to do with wanting to be able to see. But people continue to insist the head bobs around like a paint-shaker, making it impossible to hit. Would it be out of line to request someone back their assertions up? Or else it's a case of someone somewhere said it in the internet so it must be true...

    Maybe someone can find a youtube video of someone doing something that illustrates the head bobbing?

    I know it's the internet, you can't expect to find truth or even people who cite sources to back up their claims unless you're on special forums, but c'mon let's bring this forum up to those 'special' standards.


    *Here, for example, is a video of people doing all sorts of movements. You'll notice their heads are quite linear in movement, especially regarding the rest of their bodies. It might be because heads aren't meant to be shaken around. It might also be attributed to inertia and the head having only 1 connecting point to a the body.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qhgIdP3l3I&feature=related

    ** Also note that the head is a target that does not vary in size much depending on perspective. If a skinny kid turns sideways your COM shot just got harder, and your 10 COM hit-pattern turns into an 8-miss lawsuit.
     
  18. 30mag

    30mag Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Where West meets South, Texas
    Conversely, I would like to see someone shoot a moving target consistently with a handgun.
     
  19. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    23,648
    Location:
    Los Anchorage
    This is unlikely. But there are more immediate and practical reasons to avoid headshots in *most* cases of self defense, though not all. What you're really trying for is a CNS shot via the brain, so the target is the size of a wavering marmot hidden behind a face mask.

    Maybe not enough effect, though. Handgun bullets are pretty weak as bullets go, and the face and head are full of baffles, caverns, weird tunnels and oddly shaped bone. There's plenty in there to send a bullet into non-vital areas. Not to mention the hardest bones in the body--the teeth--which can't stop a handgun bullet but can sure hurt its sectional density and mess up its shape.
     
  20. Logos

    Logos member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2007
    Messages:
    443
    Location:
    The Far North
    When I was a kid I saw dozens of pigs shot between the eyes with a .22 rifle at butchering time .

    They dropped instantly and I never saw one require a second shot.

    In fact, everything that I've ever seen shot in the head has dropped instantly.

    Imagine that.

    I expect in a close encounter, at least, most shots that hit the human head will penetrate. No sense making a big deal about grazing shots--they are misses, that's all.

    I'd throw in with the trainers that say a fast two to the chest and the next one to the head if you're face to face.

    Of course, things are rarely that cut and dried.

    In these bad situations, those with the guts to respond will blast away at any part of the other person that shows and also at whatever he may be hiding behind.....and we hope the good guy lands a lucky shot and the bad guy misses.

    The best reason for adding a head shot immediately is you don't know who might be wearing a vest these days.
     
  21. AStone

    AStone Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2005
    Messages:
    24,176
    Location:
    Far N, E coast
  22. LightningJoe

    LightningJoe Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    796
    Location:
    The good part of Dallas (i.e. not Dallas)

    Airplane to airplane might be really long range.
     
  23. ChapNelson

    ChapNelson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    20
    Head shots are for offensive, highly trained, pistoleros. How many no-kidding man killing operators post on this forum? Yeah, they're probably out doing their job right now while we rent the DVD. So for the rest of us most-likely defensive shooters, COM till they're down. Heck, keep a mag of FMJ handy if you're worried about body armor. 7.62x39 on SAAPI at under 100 yds leaves a mark on the wearer.

    Google simmunition training, and you'll see how lots of folks respond to bullets flying, even with full body armor and knowledge that they're non-lethal.
     
  24. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    10,401
    Location:
    Forestburg, Texas
    :D
    That is the funniest thing I have heard in a long time. Thanks for the laugh! :D
     
  25. Logos

    Logos member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2007
    Messages:
    443
    Location:
    The Far North
    Did he mean that offensive pistoleros should be shot in the head?

    I try to remember to use a deodorant!!!!

    :D
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice