Head space question with go/no go gauges

[WillyG]

I had a Shilen 26" barrel installed on a Savage 110 .270 Winchester. No and no go gauges were used for the install. I have tried Hornady, Nosler and Starline brass. They all begin to show signs of case separation after the 2nd firing. I do experience case separation after some of the 3rd firings. I've full length resized, collet neck sized and Forster bushing bump neck sized with the same results. Any thoughts? I'm guessing too much head space, but I have not gone back to the gunsmith for a field test.

 

[PRD1]

If you have verified that rifle headspace is still within the go/no go limits, you are excessively resizing the fired cases, causing them to be too short for proper cartridge headspacing in the chamber. Even if the chamber headspace is slightly too long, you can still re-use fired cases by adjusting the sizing die to resize the case just enough to chamber freely, without regard to the actual case headspace measurement. Ultimately, the rifle is its own cartridge headspace gauge, and so long as the case fits the chamber and headspace correctly, there is no likelihood that cases will stretch so far as to produce head separations. If you still have doubts about the rifle's headspace, you should have it verified with proper gauges, and corrected, if necessary.
Also, case headspace gauges are available for most popular cartridges, and are particularly useful in situations such as this, and if you load for more than one rifle in the same caliber.
PRD1 - mhb - MIke

 

[WillyG]

I had a Shilen 26" barrel installed on a Savage 110 .270 Winchester. No and no go gauges were used for the install. I have tried Hornady, Nosler and Starline brass. They all begin to show signs of case separation after the 2nd firing. I do experience case separation after some of the 3rd firings. I've full length resized, collet neck sized and Forster bushing bump neck sized with the same results. Any thoughts? I'm guessing too much head space, but I have not gone back to the gunsmith for a field test.

Thank you, Mike. I'll have the chamber double checked and use your advice when sizing my brass. I reload 4 calibers, and the 270 is the only one giving me issues. Thanks again.
Will

 

[243winxb]

You need a Field Gauge: Field Gauges correspond to the maximum safe headspace dimension. If a rifle will chamber a field gauge, it should be inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith prior to use.

 

[PRD1]

You need a Field Gauge: Field Gauges correspond to the maximum safe headspace dimension. If a rifle will chamber a field gauge, it should be inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith prior to use.

Disagree. No custom barreled rifle should ever be found with headspace outside the go/no go limits, unless it has been subjected to excessive breech pressures or extreme wear. In either case, should headspace appear to be a problem, it should be returned to the responsible gunsmith for inspection and correction, if needed. In general, firearms owners should not need headspace gauges to verify their firearms' condition, unless they have well-worn or otherwise questionable arms, and, even then, a good gunsmith can check headspace for the owner for little or no cost. A cartridge headspace gauge, on the other hand, can be useful to the user, as discussed above.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

 

[jmorris]

They all begin to show signs of case separation after the 2nd firing.

Set your size die like this and they will have less room to grow, into two pieces.

Setting size die for bolt action rifle.

www.youtube.com

A solid, "no measuring tools required", way to achieve great brass life with little to no trimming ever needed.

The downside will be that brass might only be perfect in that rifle, might not even fit in others, so chambered.

 

[conan32120]

Would only neck sizing the brass not cure the problem? Just asking and curious.

 

[Jim Watson]

Strange. When a friend and I rebarrelled our Savage .308s, we just ran the barrels in against the Go gauge and tightned the nut. I never had a case separation and have not heard him say he did. I was bushing neck sizing the same brass; he was shooting more, I think he got to where he had to bump the shoulder every once in a while.

 

[243winxb]

Forster

Using their press, no shell holder?

The Hornady Lock-N-Load® Headspace Comparator should be used to "compare" fired brass to sized brass.

 

[Walkalong]

If you have verified that rifle headspace is still within the go/no go limits, you are excessively resizing the fired cases, causing them to be too short for proper cartridge headspacing in the chamber.

Yep.

Check out this thread.

Incipient Case Head Separation

Folks ask about how to check for the internal signs of impending case head separation and what it looks like from time to time so I thought I would post some pics. A buddy brought me some .308 brass he had shot a time or two too many. I have posted this printed pic I did in paint before showing...

www.thehighroad.org

 

[Walkalong]

Would only neck sizing the brass not cure the problem? Just asking and curious.

It could, but there is no need to when we can cure the problem and still full length size, with all the benefits it brings.

 

[WillyG]

Set your size die like this and they will have less room to grow, into two pieces.

Setting size die for bolt action rifle.

www.youtube.com

A solid, "no measuring tools required", way to achieve great brass life with little to no trimming ever needed.

The downside will be that brass might only be perfect in that rifle, might not even fit in others, so chambered.

I'll try that. I am pretty sure that method is in Nathan Foster's reloading book, too. Thanks. Thanks for all the insigt from everyonel.

 

[Mauser fan]

I'm surprised that no-one has asked these two questions.

First: Are there any case head separations with factory ammo? If so then I'm inclined to say take it back to the Smith who installed the barrel and make him fix it or do right by you in some other fashion.

Second: Is the barrel of your rifle installed with a barrel nut or does it have a conventionally threaded barrel? These are two completely different animals when it comes to head spacing them correctly. The barrel nut usually gives hand loaders the most trouble and since you hand load your own ammo you can tailor you ammo around the rifle not the other way around. This is especially true when one loads the same cartridge for more than one rifle and has only one set of dies. Each rifle is different.

Lets be clear. I only say what I have because this has been my experience with those people who have come to me for help and have fancied themselves handy as smiths or expert hand loaders or the DYI crowd and get themselves in trouble in a hurry. Since I don't have the rifle sitting on my bench in-front of me I like all of the other members who have posted here to try and help you from afar. All we can really do is try to get you in the right direction. I hope this helps.

Jeremy

 

[jmorris]

First: Are there any case head separations with factory ammo?

That would be bad indeed. I would expect them to be, for the most part, blown out to the chamber. Making them smaller and letting them blow out again, is where most of them come from.

Custom die makers want the piece of brass, they use to make a die, to be fired at least 3 times from the same chamber, to be fully formed.

 

[Varminterror]

Please don't waste time with only-neck sizing. Setting up the sizing die appropriately for the chamber to give minimal bump on the shoulder position is easy, there's no excuse to cut our nose off to spite our face.

Set the sizing die based on allowing a stripped bolt to close on the case. Illustration of this can be found at wheeleraccuracy.com/videos, scroll down to "sizing brass". If the stripped bolt will close on fired brass, then add shim tape to the base of the case until it will NOT close, and repeat the die set up.

If you're failing 270win brass in 2-3 firings, that brass is moving WAY too much during firing and sizing. There's no other way that failure mode can happen. That may not actually mean the rifle has an over-length chamber, it just means the ammo is too short for the chamber. That can happen either because the chamber is too long or the ammo is too short. Solving the problem by properly adjusting the die is easy enough.

 

[WillyG]

I'm surprised that no-one has asked these two questions.

First: Are there any case head separations with factory ammo? If so then I'm inclined to say take it back to the Smith who installed the barrel and make him fix it or do right by you in some other fashion.

Second: Is the barrel of your rifle installed with a barrel nut or does it have a conventionally threaded barrel? These are two completely different animals when it comes to head spacing them correctly. The barrel nut usually gives hand loaders the most trouble and since you hand load your own ammo you can tailor you ammo around the rifle not the other way around. This is especially true when one loads the same cartridge for more than one rifle and has only one set of dies. Each rifle is different.

Lets be clear. I only say what I have because this has been my experience with those people who have come to me for help and have fancied themselves handy as smiths or expert hand loaders or the DYI crowd and get themselves in trouble in a hurry. Since I don't have the rifle sitting on my bench in-front of me I like all of the other members who have posted here to try and help you from afar. All we can really do is try to get you in the right direction. I hope this helps.

Jeremy

I don't shoot factory ammo. Yes, the Savage rifle has a barrel nut. I only have 1 270 rifle, and I don't mix up my ammo when bushing bump or collet neck size. I'm really thinking I need to take the rifle back to the gunsmith because none of my other calibers have ever had a case head separate about 1/4 in from the primer end. It's always the same exact spot with that rifle.

 

[Mauser fan]

Ok now we are getting somewhere. I think that I have a good idea of what has happened here. Savage's and every turn bolt that has the feature of a barrel lock nut to set the head space with. It is very easy to set the headspace in the wrong position and create a problem where there really isn't one. What I mean is don't turn the barrel in far enough and then torque the nut down without holding the barrel in a vise or the receiver in a wrench at the same time the barrel can move out of the correct position. Then you end up with a rifle that is improperly head spaced. With actions like your Savage when head spacing them to new barrels. One needs a third hand and a second set of eyes. Ask me how I know.

It is very likely that your chamber is cut just fine. But have it checked anyway. The rifle just needs to have the head space re-done and set. It is a very easy fix. If we lived closer I would help you out and show what I am talking about.

Jeremy

 

[Walkalong]

I had a Shilen 26" barrel installed on a Savage 110 .270 Winchester. No and no go gauges were used for the install.

So if done correctly, it's a sizing brass issue, but it doesn't hurt to double check the mechanical headspace on the rifle.

 

[small town life]

Disagree. No custom barreled rifle should ever be found with headspace outside the go/no go limits, unless it has been subjected to excessive breech pressures or extreme wear. In either case, should headspace appear to be a problem, it should be returned to the responsible gunsmith for inspection and correction, if needed. In general, firearms owners should not need headspace gauges to verify their firearms' condition, unless they have well-worn or otherwise questionable arms, and, even then, a good gunsmith can check headspace for the owner for little or no cost. A cartridge headspace gauge, on the other hand, can be useful to the user, as discussed above.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

I don't feel that's what he's trying to say. He's saying use it to check the current measurements via field gauge.

 

[PRD1]

I don't feel that's what he's trying to say. He's saying use it to check the current measurements via field gauge.

What I'm saying is that no rifle owner should ever need to check whether his sporting rifle, which already exhibits excess headspace, still falls within the 'field' limit, which is only useful with military arms in which reloaded ammunition is never shot, and in which case separation of improperly sized cases is not an issue. Even military weapons which show headspace beyond the 'No-go' limit are customarily submitted to rebuild, and kept in service only in cases of combat necessity. There is no reason to continue to use a sporting arm which already shows signs of excess headspace: the issue should be corrected.
As the current problem lies with a Savage 110, it is most likely that others have already identified and suggested corrective action needed: turning in the barrel until headspace is correct and re-tightening the barrel nut; and finally verifying that headspace is correct.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke - Barrel maker and custom riflesmith, retired

 

[small town life]

What I'm saying is that no rifle owner should ever need to check whether his sporting rifle, which already exhibits excess headspace, still falls within the 'field' limit, which is only useful with military arms in which reloaded ammunition is never shot, and in which case separation of improperly sized cases is not an issue. Even military weapons which show headspace beyond the 'No-go' limit are customarily submitted to rebuild, and kept in service only in cases of combat necessity. There is no reason to continue to use a sporting arm which already shows signs of excess headspace: the issue should be corrected.
As the current problem lies with a Savage 110, it is most likely that others have already identified and suggested corrective action needed: turning in the barrel until headspace is correct and re-tightening the barrel nut; and finally verifying that headspace is correct.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke - Barrel maker and custom riflesmith, retired

it might not be necessarily to much headspace if the brass doesn't fit the chamber. having a correct go and no-go is ideal as you can get them in increments. so far the 1's i've built and the fl sizing dies have been 100% spot on.

what need to be done is check unfired dimensions against fired cases before fl sizing. best way to get an answer. if shoulder is way forward/grown excessively (after chambering easily/normal) then it could be excessive shoulder bump which wouldn't allow it to "seal off" and get pressure(s) where it's not wanted.

turning in the barrel until headspace is correct and re-tightening the barrel nut; and finally verifying that headspace is correct

^^^^this is what i do also. reverify for sure! if the action or barrel moves with the nut being tightened, then headspace will change (not disagreeing with you, just adding for the op).

 

[WillyG]

Set your size die like this and they will have less room to grow, into two pieces.

Setting size die for bolt action rifle.

www.youtube.com

A solid, "no measuring tools required", way to achieve great brass life with little to no trimming ever needed.

The downside will be that brass might only be perfect in that rifle, might not even fit in others, so chambered.

That works for me. I've tried that, but once I got the Forster bushing-bump gauge I stopped using the Forster full length die I had honed. I did remove the decapping stem to fit the brass. I have to try that again before I do anything else. I need to know if it's me or the fact the rifle didn't meet specs. Thanks for all of the replies. You guys are awesome!

 

[WillyG]

Please don't waste time with only-neck sizing. Setting up the sizing die appropriately for the chamber to give minimal bump on the shoulder position is easy, there's no excuse to cut our nose off to spite our face.

Set the sizing die based on allowing a stripped bolt to close on the case. Illustration of this can be found at wheeleraccuracy.com/videos, scroll down to "sizing brass". If the stripped bolt will close on fired brass, then add shim tape to the base of the case until it will NOT close, and repeat the die set up.

If you're failing 270win brass in 2-3 firings, that brass is moving WAY too much during firing and sizing. There's no other way that failure mode can happen. That may not actually mean the rifle has an over-length chamber, it just means the ammo is too short for the chamber. That can happen either because the chamber is too long or the ammo is too short. Solving the problem by properly adjusting the die is easy enough.

Point taken. I've got to go back to basics. I've watched the video and will set it up this way. Thanks again.
Will

 

[243winxb]

signs of case separation

New factory brass can be damaged on the very first firing, in rifles with excessive headspace. Separations shows up later.
No die adjustment will fix it.

 

[WillyG]

Point taken. I've got to go back to basics. I've watched the video and will set it up this way. Thanks again.
Will

I stripped the bolt and got the brass to just fit and close the die. At the range, the accuracy was back to bullseyes. The bushing bumped brass was close, but not as accurate as the FL sized brass. I did a 5 shot group to compare. After that, I switched my FL dies back into the go to drawer. Thanks for all the info!