Heat treating process to make handguns capable of using heavy loads.

Discussion in 'Gunsmithing and Repairs' started by MUSICALGUNNUT45, Nov 18, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 45_auto

    45_auto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,168
    Location:
    Southern Louisiana
    Nobody is disagreeing with you. But everyone that I know uses a steel chamber (barrel) around their brass.

    Measure the diameter of your separate brass and steel cylinders just before they burst.

    You'll find that the brass cylinder is able to attain a greater diameter than the steel before it bursts.

    If you put the brass cylinder inside the steel cylinder, you'll find that the brass cylinder bursts at the same time the steel does.

    Darn, you got me. The 1911 I posted pictures of must not have blown the barrel and slide apart, it really blew the brass apart at the primer or extractor then vented down the magazine well as you described earlier. Those pictures must have been faked! :)

    If you're interested in the stress in a barrel and finding out where it'll burst, you can easily calculate it based on the material and internal pressure. You'll notice that the steel doesn't care whether the pressure is hydraulic, pneumatic, mechanical, etc. it all works the same.

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/stress-thick-walled-tube-d_949.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2011
  2. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,549
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    What makes you so sure that I haven't?

    But, I'm starting to think that rc is right. You like to argue semantics just for its own sake...and I'm startin' to get bored.

    So, I'll just ask a question.

    If brass is stronger than steel...why not just make gun barrels and revolver cylinders out of it? It's a lot easier to machine and way yonder easier on tooling. It cuts like butter and even makes a pretty sound while it's being cut. It literally sings when it's being turned. I much preferred to machine brass to even 1018 leaded steel...which is about as easy to cut as steel gets.

    And, just as a reminder...THR is plumb fulla ringers.
     
  3. Buck Kramer

    Buck Kramer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    683
    I can't imagine heat treating would add much strength that it didn't have already.
     
  4. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,549
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    It won't, Buck.
     
  5. CraigC
    • Contributing Member

    CraigC Sixgun Nut

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    20,326
    Location:
    West Tennessee
    Brass doesn't contain pressure, chambers do. Brass cases are just a gasket. Brass cases have been tested to pressures that well exceed the strength of any common manufactured firearm. If you load a Blackhawk to 80,000psi, it's the cylinder that lets go at the bolt cut, not the case.
     
  6. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Messages:
    7,004
    Location:
    Frozen North
    RIGHT

    BUT.........
    there are different types of failures
    So 45 auto
    wanna argue semantics...
    lets talk critical failure (like that Kaboom that been dissected)
    versus a fatigue failure
    Or this analogy, way more airplanes have bit the dirt that have ever exploded out of the sky ( and that includes the ones shot down)
    the brass will give in the unsupported areas, because its not a brittle metal (for the most part) it can and will bulge and let go, if the chamber is loose enough or the brass worn you can and will have a case head separation.

    These are all examples of failures that happen before the all mighty KABOOM, and will actually prevent it.
    Now for example, take the infamous (unsupported chamber) GLOCK Kabooms, where the slide is popped, the mag is blown clean out and the trigger/frame internals damaged. This isn't caused by steel failing, its the brass.

    You can destroy a gun through gas/flame cutting due to brass failure, the same process that causes throat and crown erosion, and forcing cone erosion in revolvers. Think of gas erosion as a pressure washer, their cousins, water jets, are used to CUT steel.

    I think RC's point is simple, you are MUCH more likely to see these types of damage from heavy loads before you just blow the gun up. And, for example, 58,000 PSI venting out the back of a bolt (following the FP channel) and into your eye/face will not make a good day. Yet that same gun, most likely, would be able to be fired again after a little work.

    A gun built out of an indestructible material instead of steel would still be hampered by the same limitations that our present designs have. There is ALWAYS a weakest link.
     
  7. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,549
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Quite correct, Craig. Brass cases stretch, but our friend is equating malleability with strength. A balloon will expand more than a hollow steel ball before it ruptures. Is that offered as proof that latex is stronger than steel?

    This is going sideways of the original topic, and I've allowed it to stray a bit because the sub-topic was kinda/sorta related to the question...but it's starting to get a bit ridiculous, and is fast approaching lock time since the OP's questions have been answered and adequately explained.
     
  8. CraigC
    • Contributing Member

    CraigC Sixgun Nut

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    20,326
    Location:
    West Tennessee
    Yes but it's being stated that the chamber fails because the case fails. In reality, the opposite is true, the case fails because the chamber let go.

    To the OP, I'm sure there are instances where a particular firearm could be re-heat treated to be stronger than it was originally. However, such a thing would require extensive testing and a thorough knowledge of metallurgy and how it pertains to firearms. It would surely be prohibitively expensive and as stated, warpage would be a big concern. Whichever parts were heat treated would have to be refinished and there is a cost associated with that. I really don't think there is any practical application for such an operation.

    The Blackhawk mentioned has been thoroughly tested to 65,000psi and the frame is not the weak link. It's the cylinder.
     
  9. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    18,549
    Location:
    Lexington,North Carolina...or thereabouts
    Correct again, but that still doesn't mean that the case is stronger than steel...or that the case isn't the weak link, as 45 Auto seems to be deeply invested in. It just means that the case will stretch further than steel before it lets go. It's more malleable...but malleability doesn't mean that it's stronger. It just means that it's more stretchy.

    i.e. A rubber band will stretch further than a steel band of the same diameter, but you can stretch a rubber band by hand to its tensile limit. You can't do that with the steel band.

    The difference between tensile strength and malleability.
     
  10. Mac's Precision

    Mac's Precision Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Messages:
    301
    Location:
    Bellingham, WA
    Wow...I have been out of the loop here for a few days.... Guess it is good that I missed this delightful exchange. I thought I smelled something foul. :D
     
  11. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2009
    Messages:
    5,882
    Location:
    Northern KY
    That language is just the 'code' for saying "Don't shoot these in a Glock" Read up on Glock 40 S&W case blowouts or just Google the phrase "Glock bulge" if you doubt me.

    What all those barrel makers mean when they say "fully supported" is really this: "our barrels don't have a big honkin' relief cut at the bottom of the chamber to allow the round to feed from the magazine more easily."

    A true 100% supported chamber is almost a mechanical impossibility unless you're willing to shove each round into a hinged breech and then extract it by ramming a rod down the muzzle.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice