Hello all! Question about gunsmithing...

[TySixtus]

I've been a lurker here for a while, so please excuse my late greetings.

Anyways, I've just been discharged from the US Navy (I did six years) and I wanted to get into gunsmithing. I own three guns, currently. A Sig 226, a Ruger REDHAWK .44, and a Remington 870. I handled a lot of small arms in the Navy, as well, including the most beat-up Berettas you've ever seen. They jammed all the darned time.

I really like guns. I like to shoot. Unfortunately, I've just moved from California to New York. And the New York pistol permit fiasco has me seeing red. (If anyone doesn't know, a pistol permit in New York is a gigantic pain in the booty!) So while I wait the six months for my permit that will allow me to excercise my constitutional rights,* I figured I'd content myself with my Remi and learn a trade.

1) Can anyone make any suggestions on how to best learn it? Gunsmithing is offered by many distance learning colleges, which is probably what I'll have to do since there are no colleges that will teach it here in Western New York.

2) What schools are considered reputable, if any?

3) How viable is this trade in my area? In other words, say I get trained- will I be able to find a job? I don't expect to make a ton of money at it (at first, hehe) but a place that will let me work my way up the ranks and learn at the same time would be nice. Do such places exist?

4) Why is New York so gosh-darn anti-gun? It's insane.

Okay, the 4th one is optional. Any help you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated. I look foward to hanging around a lot more.

Ty

*Can you imagine this scenario at the county clerks office? "Hi, I'm here to apply for a permit to exercise my right to free speech!" :banghead:

 

[Jammer Six]

*Can you imagine this scenario at the county clerks office? "Hi, I'm here to apply for a permit to exercise my right to free speech!"

All rights are regulated, with the exception of the right not to incriminate yourself.

That's a good thing.

If you want to excercise your right to assembly, for instance, in many places, you will do just that: apply to the clerk's office for a permit.

 

[1911Tuner]

Smiffin'

Welcome aboard.

First, if you don't have any experience with machine tools, I'd suggest taking an evening course at a local community college. A machinist's one-year vocational degree would be better. Brush up on your Trig...You'll need it.

Next, take a class in small business administration. Many smaller shops operate the way a hair salon or barber shop does and lease you the space.
If so, you'll have to run it like a small business.

You'll doubtless notice that I did a little editing on your post. It was to keep from upsetting Art's grammaw.

 

[gamachinist]

Welcome TySixtus,
Tuners advice is about as good as you will get unless you luck into an aprenticeship.

I would recomend a full course as a machinist,so you will always have that to fall back on and you can make extra money (and help pay for the machines)if the gunsmithing business gets slack.

If you can stand the years of school fulltime,go for it!
I would love to be able to have done that,but didn't have the chance to go to gunsmith school.
I would love to throw out all the car parts in my shop and work on guns,but I don't have the money to start over right now.

Regards,Robert.

 

[Jim K]

I am not sure of the name, but there is/was a good gunsmith school in Pittsburgh, PA. In fact, if you are close to the line, you might consider moving to PA, which is a whole lot more gun friendly.

Tuner is right. Gunsmithing is just part of running a gunsmithing business, and maybe not the most important part as far as staying in business goes. I have known too many quite good gunsmiths who failed and went broke, not because they couldn't work on guns, but because they didn't know how to run a business. (Famous last words: "Too bad good old Joe closed down - he used to sell stuff at cost to all his friends.")

Jim

 

[model 649]

Welcome TY, how was your post edited by 1911 Tuner?
Josh

 

[HSMITH]

I disagree with some of the previous posts with complete disregard to the harm that might come to my name. Oh well.

A LOT of gunsmithing is a simple matter, what happens to 'a' when 'b' is changed by 'x'. This is't rocket science but it can be complicated. A sound understanding of the mechanism at hand and a sound understanding of geometry at hand wlll fill in the blanks. Most of non-cosmetic gunsmthing can be undrstood with simple geometry. Does tihis mean a simple guy can tune his gun? No. But, it means a guy with simple means can tune his own gun.

 

[TySixtus]

Thanks for all the replies!

I grew up around a machine shop; my father owned a tool and die shop for years, so I'm pretty familiar with lathes and mills and whatnot. My only concern was being underprepared for the "gun" part of gunsmithing. Mechanically, I'm a pretty competent. I worked for six years on both CIWS and RAM weapon systems while I was in the Navy.

But to be honest, I don't feel comfortable yet with working on guns with any kind of certainty. In other words, I've only owned three. And I've never done more than clean them. So I guess I just need to get my foot in the door.

Thanks again!

Ty

PS I got edited for the non-nice version of gosh-darn. Please pardon my language. Whenever I think of New York state and their pistol permit fiasco, I want to start swearing.

 

[1911Tuner]

Gosh Darn It!

No harm, no foul Ty...Just wanted to catch it before Art's grammaw did. She'd have washed your mouth out with Octagon Soap.

As far as the actual work on the guns...It'll help to understand how and why things work, since a good part of it is in repairing and/or correcting functional issues. The "Custom" part of it is mostly basic toolmaking.

Jerry Kuhnhausen published a series of very good books that many smiths use for reference manuals. Most of'em are available from Brownells. That would be a good place to start. A word of warning though...Kuhnhausen's text is often about as clear as mud. You might need to read over a section 5 or 6 times before it makes sense.

 

[steel&walnut]

sorry to insert my 2 cents so late, but i found this thread while web-searching for still more gunsmithing info, and i'd like to offer some of the information that i've learned along my own way to becoming a gunsmith... hopefully to the benefit of other gunsmith-wannabe's who may also chance along this thread.

(to say nothing of being a former Navy Quartermaster, currently an Army Small-Arms-Repairman, and a fellow New Yorker)

---

here's a list of gunsmithing schools... (sorry i can't seem to get a decent table spacing out of this editor)

Colorado School Of Trades -- Lakewood CO
Community College Of The Air Force -- Montgomery AL
Kirtland Community College -- Roscommon MI
Lassen Community College -- Susanville CA
Montgomery Community College -- Troy NC
Murray State College -- Tishomingo OK
Pennsylvania Gunsmith School -- Pittsburgh PA
Piedmont Community College -- Roxboro NC
Pine Technical College -- Pine City MN
Trinidad State Junior College -- Trinidad CO
Yavapai College -- Prescott AZ

observe that there are none in NY-state.

if you can afford to move-to and go-to one of these schools full time, more power to you. Many will cater to helping you with the GI-bill to pay the tuition.

I, unfortunately, suffered from need-to-support-the-wife-and-kid disability, so i talked to an Army recruiter to get into the Army job of Small-Arms-Repair (combines class-room training with on-the-job-training plus years of experience with a steady income).

Note, however, that Small Arms Repair in the Army is ONLY about dismantling, parts-replacement, and reassembly. Fabricating / Modifying parts is a serious NO-GO
(to say nothing of wooden stocks being a thing of the distant past).

From my point of view, however, this has provided me ample opportunity to become extremely competant and comfortable with the idea of completely dissassembling weapons down to the nubbins. Before this job and training, taking guns apart and working on them was somehow scary... it no longer is.

There is a corresponding job in the Marines (they go to the same school along-side us Army types).

There is/was a corresponding job in the Navy -- GunnersMate. This used to be broken down into GunnersMate-Guns and GunnersMate-Missiles, but i think they combined the 2 jobs. Here you will work in a shipboard Armory maintaining weapons.

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As for long term career potential, understand that modern Gunsmithing is a complex field of generalities and specializations... you may choose to work in any or all of the following sub-fields:

o stockmaking
o checkering
o stock (wood) finishing
o steel finishing - blueing, parkerizing, etc
o engraving and inlaying
o customizing
o accurizing
o scope- and sight-mounting
o parts replacement (parts ordered from catalog)
o parts fabrication (back to the machine shop)
o ...the list goes on...

with any or all of these skills, you may then choose to work as

o a self-employed general gunsmith
o a self-employed specialist (in one or a few of the above listed specialties)
o an armorer for law enforcement (for police or at the federal level)
o a depot-level civilian gunsmith for the military
o a gunsmith for a gun-factory

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location, location, location...
depending on what aspects of gunsmithing you want to work on...

to work in a gun-factory, you have to live near that factory... Remington for instance is located in ilion, NY (along the Mohawk River between Utica and Albany).

to work at a military depot... these are located only in a handful of states (and i don't think NY is one of them any longer --- thank the Base Closures)

there are local police departments pretty much everywhere.

if you just want to work on sporting guns, then aim for regions where hunting is big.

but if your talents and learning allow you to become a big-name customizer or engraver or somesuch specialization, you may choose to work just about anywhere and have your customers mail their weapons to you (see more about FFL's below).

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if you want to just learn more about potentially working on your own guns, then get copies of some of the following:

Brownell's Encyclopedia of Modern Firearms -- Parts & Assembly
covers most American sporting guns (rifles, shotguns, handguns)
available from http://www.brownells.com
order a copy of their catalog too.

go to http://www.gunpartscorp.com and order yourself a copy of the NUMRICH catalog.
this catalog has exploded-parts-drawings of the most popular modern guns
(not just American) to help you find that particular part and part-number.

Gunsmithing -- by Roy F. Dunlap
this is my favourite all-around gunsmithing book.
it is available from Brownells.

There are numerous videos available for teach-yourself-gunsmithing-at-home. These tend to get very specific as to what model weapon they are teaching you to work on.
(ie; "everything you ever wanted to know about working on the M1911A1")

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Something should be said about the ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms).
Gunsmithing is a regulated trade... not that anyone is going to require you to be certified or pass a bar or board, but as a gunsmith you will effectively be trafficking in Firearms (by the act of assuming custody of a weapon from a client), and as such, your activities need to be licensed and documented by and for the ATF.

Specifically you will require a FFL (Federal Firearms License). These come in several classes (I, II, III, IV, V)... the lower of which allow you to work on Bubba's shotgun for him, the higher of which allow you to import/export/manufacture automatic weapons. For further information, consult the ATF website at http://www.atf.gov

With FFL in hand, once you open your establishment, you will be required to keep log-books of Weapon-type, Serial-Number, Owner's Name, Owner's Address of every gun that you assume the custody of. This is for law-enforcement reasons, to assist the ATF in tracking weapons that may have been involved in crimes.

Note that these log-books are specific to the address of your gunsmithing establishment. You cannot gunsmith out of the back of a van. If you change the address of your gunsmithing establishment and move 2 doors down the block, you must send your old log-books to the ATF, and reapply for a new FFL.

These regulations apply just as much to gun-engravers and stockers, as they do to people who are in the business of creating new guns or highly modifying existing guns.

Details concerning these regulations will be covered by the schools listed at the top of this reply.

Again, for the most current information, consult the ATF directly (http://www.atf.gov)

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hope some of this information helps, and good luck!

 

[mete]

BTW in NY a gunsmith must have a NY gunsmithing license and a separate handgun gunsmithing license if he wants to work on handguns !!..Starting out as a gunsmith can be expensive since you need lathe ,milling machine etc....I attended Colo School of Trades full time ,it took a year.That's still considered the best school.

 

[Clark]

10 years ago I started buying broken guns and fixing them.
I then sold them on consignment at a gunshop.
Although I have more tools than most professional gunsmths, I am not going to quit my day job. My work still looks crude. I am mostly interested in the functional and not the jewelry aspect.