JeeperCreeper
Member
Well by venting your frustrations on here for free and not paying for a psychologist, you saved a bunch of money to towards new range fees!!!
Help bettering my gun club!
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you have to have something like 5yrs to be on the board. It maybe more but nothing like that's listed in the bylaws. I know committee members must be like 3-5yrs member before being allowed to run.
I think the president does a fine job its everyone else that's horrible with members included. Everything must be voted on by the majority and if someone is apposed they must state why and we take a revote or the board decides. Its hard to get anyone out or anything done because so many have been there forever including board members 20yrs + and everyone is afraid of crossing them. For instance we were told your not allowed to use the club to make money like flee markets, etc unless its a club function. For instance if i had my ccw instructors license i would not be allowed to hold a class on club grounds BUT one of the life members/trustees is allowed to do that. Yes it was voted in and after the meeting when everyone was outside talking a lot of people said it was bull crap that he was allowed to do this! I asked one guy why no one apposed it and they said well the board would just override us and its best not to make enemies. I think the board is good with it because he agreed to give half his proceeds to the club. But let me or someone else ask to do it and we are told no! I know this because last year the bylaws were amended that the board could override your apposed vote and our current ccw instructor which im not sure if he was a member or not was let go and this trustee was assigned the spot. Someone else was asked if they could use the range to teach and was told no we have a ccw instructor. I state this because its very hard to get thing across to them. Its like a pack mentality. Oh hes been here 20yrs and you've been here 3-4yrs your opinion doesn't count. Ive heard them ask members how long they have been a member when they inquire about something. Who cares how long the guys been a member his opinion counts the same as a 30yr member.
buck460XVR
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I see no legitimate reason not to express your concerns in a general meeting. I would ask the Board to put you on the agenda and make it so you can properly present all of your concerns first, before it goes to discussion(arguments). As for adding more work time to meeting attendance, it seems to me, the half hour is already pretty generous. Never belonged to any organization that gave credit towards work hours by attending monthly meetings. As for the 20 people showing up and 5 doing all the work.........welcome to the real world. Good points that you do have and you should prioritize, is the open listing of what duties need to be done, and a calendar showing when specific projects are to be done, maybe with a sign up sheet for each showing contact info both ways.
You're fairly new, don't expect to turn it into your club over night. Don't claim what is being done is bad, just that there are improvements that could be made.Start small and accept that folks that have been there 20 years will be slow to accept change. Many will probably tell you why fix something that is obviously working. A good time to suggest some of the things you are proposing may not be all at once at a general meeting, but subtly, while working along side other members. Suggesting you almost didn't make it to a work day, or that low attendance from others for the work day, may be because there is not a good system in place to inform folks, starts others to think about it and can put them in agreement with you, when you present it formally. I'd start slowly with small changes, instead of trying to change everything(hours, rates, projects, etc) all at once. Sometimes we have to just accept those things we cannot change or move on.
You're fairly new, don't expect to turn it into your club over night. Don't claim what is being done is bad, just that there are improvements that could be made.Start small and accept that folks that have been there 20 years will be slow to accept change. Many will probably tell you why fix something that is obviously working. A good time to suggest some of the things you are proposing may not be all at once at a general meeting, but subtly, while working along side other members. Suggesting you almost didn't make it to a work day, or that low attendance from others for the work day, may be because there is not a good system in place to inform folks, starts others to think about it and can put them in agreement with you, when you present it formally. I'd start slowly with small changes, instead of trying to change everything(hours, rates, projects, etc) all at once. Sometimes we have to just accept those things we cannot change or move on.
Board member, chairman, and club member for 38 years of a small (under 150 members) here. Common requirements of most small clubs are work hours and subsequent fines. Our officers set the requirement each year based on projected needs. Sixty per cent do 100% of the work, also quite common.
You want work hours for attending a meeting? Make your points at the meeting. That's what they're supposed to be for. Run for an office and work for change from within. If you are looking for the perfect club you won't find it this side of the grave.
In most clubs work hours don't require much work. Scoring, pulling, cooking, cleanup...
Don't know what your club offers but we have two trap fields with PAT traps, a practice field, pistol range, 100 yard rifle range and an archery range plus a modern, fully equipped clubhouse members can reserve cheaply for family and other events. Dues, after initiation fee of $150 are $96/year.
Sure, we have disagreements but, "constructive conflict is an abrasive process that can smooth the way to improvement".
Good luck.
You want work hours for attending a meeting? Make your points at the meeting. That's what they're supposed to be for. Run for an office and work for change from within. If you are looking for the perfect club you won't find it this side of the grave.
In most clubs work hours don't require much work. Scoring, pulling, cooking, cleanup...
Don't know what your club offers but we have two trap fields with PAT traps, a practice field, pistol range, 100 yard rifle range and an archery range plus a modern, fully equipped clubhouse members can reserve cheaply for family and other events. Dues, after initiation fee of $150 are $96/year.
Sure, we have disagreements but, "constructive conflict is an abrasive process that can smooth the way to improvement".
Good luck.
The amateur radio club in the town I work in does. They have very few people show up for meetings; so, attending a meeting can be substituted for paying the annual dues (which are only $5).
It isn't exactly work hours, but it is the dues.
buck460XVR
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Lot different than being charged for not attending meetings or paying for work hours not worked.
The reason most organizations require work hours is because they cannot afford to pay to have those things done. The reason the require folks to pay for hours not worked is to motivate folks to either work, or to pay to have it done. Most times those organizations don't want the money, they'd rather have folks work. As for giving folks a whole hour towards work time for attending meetings, attending every meeting would fulfill the required work hours for the year. Seems like a contradiction to me. The half hour towards work time was probably instituted not only to motivate more folks to attend meetings, but also to reward those Board members who are required to attend every meeting. Again, the half hour sounds pretty generous to me. I also see no reason to increase the work hours but charge less for each hour unworked. Not gonna make a difference to those folks that don't work any hours, nor will it make a difference to those working more than their minimum. Seems pretty tit for tat.
No problem with trying to make anything better as long as one is trying to make it better for everyone. Trying to make it better for yourself is not going to endear one to anyone. Trying to make too many changes in a system that has been around for a long time is also not going to endear oneself. If the OP hits a wall of resistance when he presents his ideas, he needs to accept the fact that others won't or don't want to change things. While he does have some good ideas, he needs to prioritize and work on what's really needed to improve the club, and make it better for all the members, not just what makes it easier for him.
LiveLife
Member
Just keep in mind, life happens and you cannot count on people showing up. You know, kids get sick and flat tires happen only on work party days ...
Most of the clubs I belonged to had a full-time person(s) working and none of your problems existed.
There were no meetings - only communication board of announcements and changes and emails. No mandatory "work parties" - only voluntary clean up by members after shooting (and those that reloaded usually made sure the ground was spotless of all spent brass or emptied the spent brass cans).
If there was no staff on duty (due to sick call, vacation etc.), members did the work of raising flags to indicate ranges were hot and self-policed the range safety rules at various pistol, rimfire, rifle and shotgun ranges at the facilities.
If we had any issues or noticed anything broken, there was a box where we dropped our reports and they were fixed by priority voted by the members.
Anything that involved money or increase in dues were presented to all members notified by various means and voted on.
One club even had a lake that was stocked and camp/picnic sites for the family to use daily or on extended stay and staff also maintained the lake/camp ground with members voluntarily help keeping the facilities clean. I really miss that club as I was able to do night shooting.
Good times.
LiveLife
Member
This club sounds like an old farts club with cranky members.
If members are afraid to speak their mind (everyone should have the same equal voice in a club that votes, right?) and only some of the members impose on other members who are afraid to speak, then there is no club.
If I could not participate in a club in a reasonable manner, I would look for a different club.
Life is too short.
For the sake of not making another thread i would like everyone opinion.
I found a club exactly 30 miles one way of me and got to looking at their emanates and though wow that's really nice.
trap and skeet, 25-300yard rifle ranges that are covered, two pistol ranges with one being steel targets, 20 something 3d target archery course in the woods, keycard access to get in and out and i believe someone stationed on club grounds while they are opened. The only issue its $100 application fee for get this! A background check and keycard and $125 a year fee totaling $225 for the first year and $125 afterwards.
Now my current club offers 100yard range with only 4 100yard benches and if you wish to shoot 25, 50, 75yards you have to be the only one there because those benches are in front of the 100yard line. If you want to strictly shoot pistol you must wait for the rifle shooters to be done. $65 a year with work hours and if they are not completed its $130 or so a year. Archery range with old rotted out hay bales and 3d targets, small pond to fish in but mostly for kids (bluegill) and no shotgun shooting permitted. Clubhouse rental for birthday parties, family reunions, etc. I don't partake in them because it ticks me off when i can shoot so i don't do it to others. Rarely is anyone there other than people paying to shut the range down which happens pretty often.
Now this other place does have club sanctioned shoots where the range is closed to the members unless competing in which i would partake in so not an issue. I was told they do not allow renting of the range like my current place does. However, the issue i see with the other club is they don't have a membership cap and accept like 5 new members a month so this tells me that this place could be very busy and if i drove 30min one way i could be waiting all day for a bench to come open.
How far would you guys travel and how much would you pay for a decent setup? Right now i'm about 10min from my current place. Part of me says pay for both to use the smaller range that's closer incase i bump a hunting rifle i can easily check zero but i haven't had that issue yet, stay at the closer range for those after work range sessions when i test load workups, etc or just get bored. I've been talking with a few buddies and they think the $100 initiation and $125yr is a bit steep as well as the hour drive round trip.
With all the B.S. from the current range set aside what do you guys think? I told the current range ill cut the grass and when my 12hrs are done for the year i'm done, too much stress showing up and having it already done, etc due to the games they play!
I found a club exactly 30 miles one way of me and got to looking at their emanates and though wow that's really nice.
trap and skeet, 25-300yard rifle ranges that are covered, two pistol ranges with one being steel targets, 20 something 3d target archery course in the woods, keycard access to get in and out and i believe someone stationed on club grounds while they are opened. The only issue its $100 application fee for get this! A background check and keycard and $125 a year fee totaling $225 for the first year and $125 afterwards.
Now my current club offers 100yard range with only 4 100yard benches and if you wish to shoot 25, 50, 75yards you have to be the only one there because those benches are in front of the 100yard line. If you want to strictly shoot pistol you must wait for the rifle shooters to be done. $65 a year with work hours and if they are not completed its $130 or so a year. Archery range with old rotted out hay bales and 3d targets, small pond to fish in but mostly for kids (bluegill) and no shotgun shooting permitted. Clubhouse rental for birthday parties, family reunions, etc. I don't partake in them because it ticks me off when i can shoot so i don't do it to others. Rarely is anyone there other than people paying to shut the range down which happens pretty often.
Now this other place does have club sanctioned shoots where the range is closed to the members unless competing in which i would partake in so not an issue. I was told they do not allow renting of the range like my current place does. However, the issue i see with the other club is they don't have a membership cap and accept like 5 new members a month so this tells me that this place could be very busy and if i drove 30min one way i could be waiting all day for a bench to come open.
How far would you guys travel and how much would you pay for a decent setup? Right now i'm about 10min from my current place. Part of me says pay for both to use the smaller range that's closer incase i bump a hunting rifle i can easily check zero but i haven't had that issue yet, stay at the closer range for those after work range sessions when i test load workups, etc or just get bored. I've been talking with a few buddies and they think the $100 initiation and $125yr is a bit steep as well as the hour drive round trip.
With all the B.S. from the current range set aside what do you guys think? I told the current range ill cut the grass and when my 12hrs are done for the year i'm done, too much stress showing up and having it already done, etc due to the games they play!
LiveLife
Member
My last indoor range membership where I could only shoot pistol calibers was $250 a year. As to 30 minute drive, many of us in the city drive that much just to go to the grocery store. And I still had to pay for an outdoor range membership to shoot rifle/shotgun which was 45+ minute drive away.
You have a good range life compared to many as you have range choices. Thankfully now and for retirement, I only need to drive to nearest BLM shooting spots about 25-45 minutes away to shoot without any restrictions day or night, even in pouring rain (For some reason, I am the only one shooting on rainy days ...
).The indoor range I shot at was busy but they offered reservations to members only in tune with first call first serve. I would call before I left the house and a lane was reserved for me when I got there after 20 minute drive. If I didn't show up for my reserved time, after 10 minutes the lane was given to someone else and I had to wait for a lane to open up.
If the range was packed, I would wait and call later to reserve a lane. This reservation system worked great and I never had to wait for a lane even when range was busy.
Since you have to drive 30 minutes, ask if the new club can offer reservation for you. If you show up by reservation time, you can shoot but if you are late, your lane will be given to someone else.
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Well I'm going to rehash this one because i had a long talk with a few friends and fellow club members.
As I have said before there are cliques and what not when it comes to work. I blew off plans and the gym to show up to the clubs grass already cut by someone else on another day. We voiced our opinion in the club meeting about it and were pretty much told where to go. I showed up the other night to benches repaired, backstop replaced, mulch down, stuff painted and not a single word was spoken in the meeting or the monthly flyer about a work party. I attempted to send an email to the club a few weeks ago because I missed a few meetings with a list of concerns about not being able to make my work hours and the response I received was a little odd.
"We received your email but there was no name attached to it. I will not voice your concerns at the meeting unless you get back with me telling me who you are". To me this screamed we want to know who you are so we can lynch you.
Last night I spoke with a guy who works 2 jobs and has a family who received a letter stating that he owed $85 for work hours from January-June. $15-per hour not worked. He says he has been watching the board for work hours and everything seems to be scheduled during the week at 10am or they don't even say anything about it and a bunch of guys in the clique just show up and work. We talk some more about it and he says $65yearly due+$180work hours+$NRA membership for what a 100yard range that you cant use if someone is shooting pistol, ccw class, or 4 matches a week? He said he isn't paying the $85 and just going to jump ship to a range 40min away with 25-300yard separate rifle ranges, 2 separate pistol ranges, 30 3d target archery range and trap and skeet fields for $120yr. NO work hours!
I was short a few hours due to rain, grass already cut, etc and would have liked to help replace the backstops and benches and not a single word of a work party. Kind of makes me wonder if my 10min drive, 12 work hours and $65 dues are really worth it? Looks like I'm not the only one who feels this way. Part of me says stick around cause its cheap and close but it seems the other place has a lot more to offer.
As I have said before there are cliques and what not when it comes to work. I blew off plans and the gym to show up to the clubs grass already cut by someone else on another day. We voiced our opinion in the club meeting about it and were pretty much told where to go. I showed up the other night to benches repaired, backstop replaced, mulch down, stuff painted and not a single word was spoken in the meeting or the monthly flyer about a work party. I attempted to send an email to the club a few weeks ago because I missed a few meetings with a list of concerns about not being able to make my work hours and the response I received was a little odd.
"We received your email but there was no name attached to it. I will not voice your concerns at the meeting unless you get back with me telling me who you are". To me this screamed we want to know who you are so we can lynch you.
Last night I spoke with a guy who works 2 jobs and has a family who received a letter stating that he owed $85 for work hours from January-June. $15-per hour not worked. He says he has been watching the board for work hours and everything seems to be scheduled during the week at 10am or they don't even say anything about it and a bunch of guys in the clique just show up and work. We talk some more about it and he says $65yearly due+$180work hours+$NRA membership for what a 100yard range that you cant use if someone is shooting pistol, ccw class, or 4 matches a week? He said he isn't paying the $85 and just going to jump ship to a range 40min away with 25-300yard separate rifle ranges, 2 separate pistol ranges, 30 3d target archery range and trap and skeet fields for $120yr. NO work hours!
I was short a few hours due to rain, grass already cut, etc and would have liked to help replace the backstops and benches and not a single word of a work party. Kind of makes me wonder if my 10min drive, 12 work hours and $65 dues are really worth it? Looks like I'm not the only one who feels this way. Part of me says stick around cause its cheap and close but it seems the other place has a lot more to offer.
George P
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$120/year is nothing. Especially when you add your $65 plus all the extras; compare amenities, etc.
I am contemplating joining a club about 30 minutes from where I now live and it is $315/year, open every day except Thanksgiving and Christmas until 9PM. It has the shotgun games I like to shoot and it also has individual pistol and rifle bays (about 30) with covered seating, fans, etc. So, for $120/year, I'd be all over that.
I wasn't aware this place had all these amenities or was that close. I had heard of it before but mostly due to pistol and rifle games and from what i have heard its a real PITA to get into but i found out last night i know at least two people who can vouch for me. I haven't been to a meeting since January so hearing all the stuff from the other guys about them not listing work on the boards pounded another nail in the coffin!
The club sounds poorly organized and badly managed. I have the good fortune of belonging to a really good one...cheap, good facilities, and well managed. It is a 30 minute drive, but that's no problem...unless I bring the wrong ammo....grrrr. Your club needs an administrative overhaul.
buck460XVR
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I dunno.......sounds like somebody is organized since the work is getting done as soon as needs to be done. Sometimes clubs are more of a social organization and folks either fit in and get along, or they don't and are always on the outside. Folks don't go out of their way to let those on the outside know about work days or special events.....'cause they don't care. Sounds like it's time for the OP to move on and find someplace he fits in.
I decided to take a little ride today to the other club that has more amenities for cheaper and man oh man was I shocked!
25min drive right off the highway and when I pulled in there was a massive club house that looks like a mansion with a massive trap and skeet field behind it! It was love at first sight! I was able to speak with someone who volunteers there and she took us down to the archery range and firearm ranges! separate 25yard pistol range with tables and overhangs, multiple target stands or fixed target stands, brand new fixed benches for rifle 50-300yard separate ranges. At my current club if you shoot pistol and someone is shooting rifle you must wait until they are done to shoot at the end of the firing line. All access is done by key card and code with auto gates where the current club is a lock and gate and you have to lock it behind you so no one sneaks in. Best of all its $125yr with no work hours or mandatory meetings, not allowed to use club grounds for profit or parties unless its the club house but ranges are always open!. Current club is $250yr with no work hours and 100yard range.
I went to the current club today and got to talking with a couple members who have been there for along time and they weren't too pleased with the new matches that are taking time away from members shooting time. One guy today drove about 35min one way to find out there was some sort of match they just decided to have today and he wasn't too happy! Cant say I blame him!
25min drive right off the highway and when I pulled in there was a massive club house that looks like a mansion with a massive trap and skeet field behind it! It was love at first sight! I was able to speak with someone who volunteers there and she took us down to the archery range and firearm ranges! separate 25yard pistol range with tables and overhangs, multiple target stands or fixed target stands, brand new fixed benches for rifle 50-300yard separate ranges. At my current club if you shoot pistol and someone is shooting rifle you must wait until they are done to shoot at the end of the firing line. All access is done by key card and code with auto gates where the current club is a lock and gate and you have to lock it behind you so no one sneaks in. Best of all its $125yr with no work hours or mandatory meetings, not allowed to use club grounds for profit or parties unless its the club house but ranges are always open!. Current club is $250yr with no work hours and 100yard range.
I went to the current club today and got to talking with a couple members who have been there for along time and they weren't too pleased with the new matches that are taking time away from members shooting time. One guy today drove about 35min one way to find out there was some sort of match they just decided to have today and he wasn't too happy! Cant say I blame him!
Sounds like it will be easier to switch your membership/patronage than to change the culture of the old club. As to the old clubs' work hours policies, I suspect they don't really need anything like the number of work hours. Otherwise, arranging hours to wok in accord with your schedule would be easy - people/organizations that need a bunch of work done usually find a way to accept offers of work when they are made. Instead, it sounds like they use it as a way to generate additional revenue, and let those members who are in the club-within-a-club avoid making the extra payments by doing "work" on secretly-scheduled days.
Might be fun to ask some innocent questions about how many hours were actually worked in the prior year, how many fees-in-lieu-of-hours were paid, whether it was necessary to pay for paid manual labor due to lack of work hours (and whether the fees-in-lieu were spent on it), etc. But only if you're not down the road.
Might be fun to ask some innocent questions about how many hours were actually worked in the prior year, how many fees-in-lieu-of-hours were paid, whether it was necessary to pay for paid manual labor due to lack of work hours (and whether the fees-in-lieu were spent on it), etc. But only if you're not down the road.
George P
member
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Sounds like you found your "happy place"......did you join yet?
JTHunter
Member
The only local outdoor club has a $50 initiation fee, a 1 yr. membership costs $250 plus $100 work fee, background check, and be sponsored by a current member. The following years work fee is waived after completion of 3 work days during current year.
It's a wonder they stay in business with fees like that.
It's a wonder they stay in business with fees like that.
TheSquire
Member
My local club is mostly run by old guys who shoot during the day and don't actually input much into the evenings when the range is open for all. They do stuff on a whim, with no communication and often little logic. However, we can shoot a range of stuff including blackpowder, and it costs £40 per year which is about 1/4 of most other local clubs and there are no range fees. For that I can put up with kranky old guys!
I have access to the sheet with everyone's hours and its ridiculous! 12hrs are required and some guys log 60-100 a year if not more. Most the hours are done during the weekday mornings. We started calling them the coffee club.
They except like 10 members a month with no cap so i have to wait until next month and have my other buddy sign for me. It will take a month or two.
I will admit i will miss the place cause its a nice quiet place but after thinking about it I'm going back to school soon and $250yr for an archery range with hay bales and paper targets, rotten 3d targets, 100yard range that the pistol line is inline with the rifle line so whoever is there first sets the pace i can spend $125yr and have more amenities.
Just sending one letter expecting that to change everything isn’t realistic. Anyonmous letter will go in the trash.
Letter seems to have a lot of points. I’d pick the most likely to pass / most popular and just start with that. Probably not the money one. Then move on to the next. All these changes will be a long game.
You say there are meetings? Can you arrange to speak at a meeting?
Is this a privately owned club? Is sounds like a coop. Is there a leadership board that you can become a part of?
Letter seems to have a lot of points. I’d pick the most likely to pass / most popular and just start with that. Probably not the money one. Then move on to the next. All these changes will be a long game.
You say there are meetings? Can you arrange to speak at a meeting?
Is this a privately owned club? Is sounds like a coop. Is there a leadership board that you can become a part of?
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