Help me pick a 9MM carbine

[Mr.Barty]

Which 9MM carbine should I choose? The Kepl-tec sub 2000 or the 9mm sterling carbine.
I plan to use it for target practice, home denfense gun, a SHTF weapon, survival gun and all around "fun gun"

 

[CTS1911]

I was considering the Kel Tec myself, and the Hi Point 995. I've heard that Hi Point has amazing CS and are actually durable, reliable weapons. However, I've not yet had personal experience with either.

 

[Rail Driver]

+1 on the hi-point, very durable and reliable weapons. Accurate and (if you need it) great CS. Low capacity, however. Also difficult (actually not recommended) disassembly.

The kel tec I have little experience with other than a few times shooting one. They're decently accurate and seem to be well made. I don't like the way it looks, and it feels "cheap" in my hands.

I recommend the Beretta CX4 though. Well made, hi capacity Glock (or other) mags, accurate, easy maintenance, and a neat looking stock. (you can get a similar looking stock for the hi-point if you don't want to spend on the beretta)

 

[Strykervet]

Forget the 9mm, just get a plain M4. It will do everything you describe but better. 5.56 is just fast and skinny 9mm anyway. I wanted a 9mm carbine but never could justify it unless it was integrally suppressed (then I could shoot in my backyard without disturbing the "neighbors").

Olympic arms makes a Glock lower for an AR. That would allow the use of 9mm, .40, and .357SIG uppers.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I have a Hi Point 9mm that I'm actually considering selling to fund another gun purchase. It's a great little reliable gun, and it's a great range toy, I just want something else more than I want to keep it.

For the cost, you're getting a great deal on the Hi Point.

Sterlings are cool looking, but everything I've read about the semi auto's from Century is hit and miss on quality. CAI CS is abyssmal.

Kel-tec sub2000 are neat, and it's nice that they take mags from other companies, not proprietary ones like HP.

I don't know your budget, but the Finn M31 Suomi carbines are one of the neatest 9mm carbines. the 75 round drum mags are a big selling point. If I'm ever in the market again fro a 9mm carbine, it'll be the Suomi.

 

[savage1r]

Sterling, very heavy, 35 rnd mags.
Hi point, lighter, 10 rnd mags
Kel Tec, VERY light, 34 rnd mags (glock)
Hp and kt are decent accuracy, don't know about sterling.

 

[W.E.G.]

Existing thread on the "Sterling."
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=404562

Might be OK for a look-at-me range toy.

If you want a 9mm SEMI-AUTOMATIC RIFLE that can equipped with modern optical sights, you probably want something other than the Sterling.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

you've got several different choices, I have'nt shot a hi-point but have the Marlin Camp and Kel-Tec 2000. the 2k prefers 'performance' ammo. looks chintzy but if you know someone that has one ask to give it a try. the Marlin Camp beats it accuracy wise. good shooting carbine. uses S&W magazines for 5900 series, hard to find nowadays and $$.

 

[rjrivero]

A pistol Caliber Carbine only makes sense if you can share mags with your pistol. Otherwise, I would rather have longer range capability a patrol carbine gives you.

If you prefer a Berretta, then the Storm is your obvious choice. If you prefer GLOCK, then your obvious choice isn't so obvious.

Olympic Arms makes a 9mm AR that uses Glock Mags, as do a couple of newer to the market makers.


Lone Wolf Distributors is making Glock Fed Lowers. You can use a RRA upper with the bolt milled narrower to clear the single feed design of the glock mags.

JR-EMF carbine is one that has gotten some good reviews.

Thureon Defense is making a GLock Version of their Pistol Caliber Carbines that aren't quite AR's, but the Ergos are the same. Similar to what JR-EMF is offering. They aren't on their website yet, but he did leak some photos over on Glocktalk.

With all that said, I built a "First Gen" lone wolf lower into my PCC. Liked it so much I made it an SBR and put a suppressor on a Form 4 for it.

 

[finnfan]

I shot a Beretta cx4 in 9mm today. Really nice gun.

 

[Dr.Who]

I have a Beretta and like it. Good Accuracy. Takes FS Mags..... Now to buy a 92FS....

 

[Panzercat]

I'm facing the same decision. So far the keltec is the front runner for me in terms of price/weight/capacity.

The Hipoint is definitely a solid product at an outstanding price point. But it weighs over seven pounds and won't reliably take any sort of hicap magazines. The Keltec runs about $100 more, so you have to ask yourself if 3.5lbs in weight savings, portability and hi capacity is worth that. both are out of the box ugly, but that can be remedied on both as well.

If price is no option, theirs the beretta. It's prettier, at least. $300 prettier for the same functions? meh. That and ARized carbines just don't do it for me. If I'm in for the pistol caliber gimmick, i want something unique.

 

[J.R.W.]

My first gun I ever bought was a Ruger PC-40 which is available in 9mm. I think it may be discontinued at present. Its an awesome gun and one of the few that will never be sold. It balances well and 8" steel plates are a blast out to 100yds.

 

[451 Detonics]

Heavy but fun...my MPA 71, currently out of production but they do come up on the used market at times. Uses the 72 round Suomi drum...



If you own a Glock or a 1911 the the Mech Tech is a great choice. Uses the same mags as the host gun and if you want a dedicated lower runs about $250.



And one of the best deals out there right now is the classic Suomi, drums are cheap as well...



Last is the Mac style from Masterpiece Arms. I don't own onr of these but my brother does and it run and shoots great.



I shoot the Mech Tech and the MPA 71 for the most part as well as my Papashaw in 7.62X25...love the cheap ammo for it.

 

[isc]

I have the keltec and camp 9 rifles. Both use S&W mags, as does my P11, 915, 5906, and DP 51.

I like both rifles a lot, but they have pluses and minuses.

Camp 9 pluses:
Can take a folding stock which can be shot in the folded position.
Can take optics (mine has a red dot on it)
Traditional wood and steel construction.

Camp 9 minuses:
Factory buffer is horrible and the stocks crack when the buffer fails.
No longer in production.
Can't be adapted to other magazines like the keltec
Greater length than a keltec when folded
Weighs more than the keltec

 

[chris in va]

My HiPoint went back to the factory four times, twice due to a critical part that snapped off or chipped.

If you own a Glock or a 1911 the the Mech Tech is a great choice. Uses the same mags as the host gun and if you want a dedicated lower runs about $250.

Just to clarify per BATFE rules, once the MechTech upper is attached to your pistol frame, it cannot legally be reverted back to pistol. Had to contact them a few months ago to be sure.

 

[wideym]

I have a Marlin Camp 9, Colt 9mm AR (both rifle and pistol), Sub2000 that takes Glock mags, and a Oylmpic .40cal AR.

I love the classic lines of the Camp 9, it shoots great, and it goes well with my S&W 469 & 5906. The down side is the cost and low availablity of replacement parts should I need them.

Colt 9mm carbine is also great due to the classic AR profile, familiarity of the weapon, and low cost C Products mags. Replacement parts are available, but seem high priced.

Sub 2000 also shoots great, is compact (folds in half), and uses unmodified, easy to find Glock mags. Not sure about replacement parts though.

Olympic shoots great (although it did fire out of battery once while extreamly dirty), same classic AR profile and familiarity, and uses unmodified, easy to find Glock mags (It only seems to fit Factory Glock mags and Schear mags though, Asian import mags are too thick to fit the magwell). Once again not sure about replacement parts though. The system is different than the Colt 9mm Carbine and not interchangeable.

I did have a Calico 9mm carbine years ago. Looked cool, felt ok, shot ok, but mags are extreamly expensive and hard to come by. Also replacement parts are generally not avaliable (firing pin and mag broke on mine).


All in all I prefer the Keltec over the others due to the compactness, ease of operation, ease of finding mags, and of course the price.

 

[isc]

Don't worry about parts for the sub 2000, Keltec has amazing customer service. They set the standard that other companies should strive to meet.

They are available in a variety of mags, and can easily be switched from one mag to another by removing 2 allen screws. Unless you get the one that takes Glock mags, it can't take anything but glock mags.

 

[spence]

plus 1 for the Ruger PC9 (police carbine) I have the PC40. Very robust & reliable . You can pick one up for about 500

 

[451 Detonics]

Just to clarify per BATFE rules, once the MechTech upper is attached to your pistol frame, it cannot legally be reverted back to pistol. Had to contact them a few months ago to be sure.

Not sure were you got this info but it is 100% incorrect. You can legally change the lower back and forth between the Mech Tech upper and the pistol upper.

The confusion that many individual agents has is everything hinges on what the serial numbered part started as. This all came about as a result of a court case against Thompson Center. In simple terms if the part that is the firearm, in the case of a Mech Tech we are talking the lower pistol receiver, was originally a pistol then you can change it back and forth. If the receiver was sold as a rifle, such as a TC Encore it is illegal to turn it into a pistol.

As there is not any rifle commercially made that uses a Glock or 1911 lower receiver this is not an issue. California is the only state where it is a problem, there you have to buy a lower that has never had an upper installed for the CCU upper, and then that lower can never be used with a pistol upper.

 

[rjrivero]

A little more than a year ago, I was looking into these Mech Tech uppers. The info I got was contradictory, so I decided to do my own research.

I called Mech Tech directly and I asked them if I had to register my handgun as a SBR in order to be able to put one of their carbine kits on my Glock Frame. They said NO. I asked them about the legality of putting the Glock back to it's original configuration. Their reply was THIS:

What you have is a Pistol. It was manufactured, or imported, and the appropriate tax has been paid by the manufacturer or importer. You are allowed to put any barrel you want to on your pistol. You can make it longer, or shorter, or even change calibers.

"Adding a shoulder stock to a pistol is a fine, AS LONG AS THE BARREL IS at least 16" when you put the stock on it.

Therefore, any end user can convert a pistol to a 16" carbine using any kit they want to AND BACK. No NFA registration, no ATF concerns."

I talked to ATF's NFA branch. He looked up the ruling and emailed it to me. The ATF position is this:

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. § 921 (a)(7), defines the term “pistol” as: A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).



Additionally, § 921 (a)(7) defines the term “rifle” in part as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder....



Further, the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a), defines the term “firearm” to include: ...(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length…[and] (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length....



Research by FTB indicates that the CCU consists of one of three shoulder-stock variants and a replacement barrel of 16-1/4 inches. (Please consult our enclosure of two pages containing data and images obtained from the Mech Tech Systems, Inc., web site.) The conversion unit is designed to work with either a 1911-type pistol or a Glock-patterned pistol, converting either into a “rifle” configuration. The conversion kit itself is simply a collection of firearm parts not regulated under the GCA or NFA.



As you can see from the citations noted above, there is no definition of a “weapon made from a pistol.” Thus, converting a pistol into a rifle using the CCU would not be a violation of the GCA or NFA. However, there is a definition of a “weapon made from a rifle.” Therefore, when you convert a pistol into a rifle, it can not then be converted back. Doing so would constitute the making of an NFA-class firearm that would require prior approval by ATF and appropriate registration.

So, even though Mech Tech's telephone advice says it's okay, THEY'RE WRONG. Ask them for the ATF RULING, and you'll get crickets. Call the ATF directly, and they send this ruling. This is a ONE WAY CONVERSION, unless you file a Form 1 for your GLOCK/1911 to make it a SBR.

Buyer Beware, and remember, ALL NFA RULES APPLY.

Trust but Verify. Call the ATF NFA BRANCH yourself. 304-616-4500

 

[isc]

1911s don't have receivers, they have frames and slides.

 

[bigfatdave]

can we not get into the nonsense about the mating of a pistol's fire-control components to a rifle ... just this once?

The ATF can't detect the change, and the rules are pointless in the first place, AND using parts from one gun to complete another doesn't magically make the original parts into something else.

It is just parts of a tool you're using to make another tool. Parts don't have identity, the assembled tools get overly fetishized too much, and it is just silly. If the "serial numbered part" happenned to be the magazine and I slapped the mag into a rifle, it isn't "forever a rifle magazine". If I strip some pins out of the frame of a handgun and use them on a rifle, they aren't "forever rifle pins". If I install the sights from a rifle onto my handgun, they don't become "forever pistol sights". Hell, I have swapped rifle and pistol extractors, did I commit some imaginary victimless crime? Shall I turn myself in for grabbing an identical extractor for some troubleshooting?

Treating the tools like they have identity just plays into the authoritarian mindset where the government needs to "control" objects for "safety". THEY'RE JUST PARTS ASSEMBLED TO DO A JOB - and they're YOUR parts, not the ATF's parts, not the government's parts, not your neighbor's parts ... YOUR parts. And MY parts are MY parts, how I assemble them is nobody's business, and I'm not about to legitimize the authoritarian mindset that wants to control inanimate objects.

===

To the original question:
I have the sub2000, and I've shot the Hi-Point. If you have a handgun that can share magazines with a carbine, get that carbine. Otherwise, the HiPoint is cheap, the KT is slightly less cheap and a bit harder to find in the wild. The HP is heavy and doesn't get any smaller, the KT is light and folds into a double pistol case. The HP takes HP magazines, and only HP magazines, the KT takes readily available and varying capacity pistol magazines*. If you want a specialized carbine, you'll likely pay more. If you want a Sterling, get a LOT of magazines NOW before the supply dries up, same for the Suomi**.


*mine takes Glock magazines, and doesn't seem to like aftermarket, just factory Glock mags
**i want one of those Suomi carbines for a toy, just on looks ... and I'll stock up on stick and drum mags when I get one

 

[Zach S]

I'm partial to the AR. Kel-tecs don't do anything for me (yes, I have shot several), and the Sterling, well, I've never seen one in person...

If the AR is out of your budget, I'll echo the recommendation for the HiPoint.

 

[451 Detonics]

Court case has already ruled on this, it is a legal two way conversion...an ATF agent can say anything they want...does not make it true...but of course we all know no government agent would lie....would they?

The upshot of the case was that it matters how the receiver began life from the manufacturer - as a pistol or as a rifle. If as a pistol then conversion back and forth is OK. In the case of the CCU the receiver began life as a pistol, is registered and serialized as a pistol, was excise taxed as a pistol and therefore remains a pistol.

Mech Tech has been selling these for what?...20 years now? And not a single case of creating an illegal firearm has been prosecuted.