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Help our security force choose a weapon

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by mrstang01, Jan 13, 2003.

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  1. mrstang01

    mrstang01 Member

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    The new manager for the security force at the company I work for is ex-military and has mentioned looking at changing them from the current S&W Model 13's to an auto, but has not specified what, and indicates he is open to suggestion.

    What would you recommend a 15-person crew in a downtown urban area (who have never had to draw their weapons in the at least in the last 50 years) be armed with.

    Most of them are Non-dedicated personnel, although my compadre on the force is a 1911 brother in arms. I suggest they stay with the Smiths and just switch to an effective ammo loading (See the thread in Revolvers for the IMHO ill-advised change he's made in their carry ammo).

    Thanks!
     
  2. Orion

    Orion Member

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    If you were to change I would suggest the SIG P220. It's a nice easy gun to learn, not too big or small and is very reliable and not likely to be a maintenance magnet.
     
  3. CWL

    CWL Member

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    Something in 9MM for cost & training effectiveness (Since it is for a security force in low-risk environment).

    Something cheap and serviceable/reliable like Rugers would be good. 3 10-round mags are plenty.

    Glocks may be good also. If you can get them to keep their fingers off of triggers, it makes a very fast weapon.

    No 1911-styles with 'cocked & locked' carry for security forces, too scary for the sheep.

    No Berettas, too big and the safety sucks.
     
  4. jrpeterman

    jrpeterman Member

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    I guess it would depend on the number of people working at the site. If there is adequate security personnel and not a high level of threat from multiple armed bad guys, then the Model 13 is more than sufficient. I would suggest a major brand 125 gr. hollowpoint load of .38p+ or .357 mag. At least a double pouch of speed loaders with the same ammo on the duty belt wouldn't be a bad idea either.

    If it is mainly a single person assignment and help is going to take a significant amount of time to arrive. A semi-auto might be a good idea with an additional 2-3 mags. I would suggest one of the major manufacturers for a 40 S & W caliber. A lot of other variables depend on the amount of firearm/retention training and good communication equiptment that are available for your security force. Most contract security companies that I am familar with offer very minimal amounts of training beyond what is necessary for licensing and liability issues. The inhouse security organizations are a bit better for the most part, but the cost factor comes into play over and over especially during tough economic times. Even in the public sector (my agency for example), training especially firearms range time has been drastically reduced due to tight budgets. Most specialized or advanced firearms training that security personnel possess was gained through the military, law enforcement, or at the individual's own expense.

    I think with the low threat level that you have indicated and the lack of firearms training interests of the majority of your co-workers, I would be in agreement with you in maintaining the status quo and switching to a more effective round.
     
  5. 10-Ring

    10-Ring Member

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    If he's dead set against another revolver (ie a 4" 686), maybe something like a XD 9 w/ 3 mags would do the trick. Easy to use, very inexpensive & durable.
     
  6. mrstang01

    mrstang01 Member

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    Further info, the current revolvers probably only have 6-800 rounds through them, so there is no necessity to upgrade due to wear.

    There are a max of 3 officers on duty at one time, with the night shifts having 2.

    Officers do carry 2 speedloaders of ammo on duty belt.
     
  7. Blueduck

    Blueduck Member

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    While I'm personally a big fan of my G-17, don't think much of it for the situation you describe. Of autos for that group I'd like something double action only with magazine safety. That pretty much limits you to S/W's (though Beretta occasionally fits mag safeties on large orders) We can whine about having no real need for a mag safety all we want, but still no matter how much you train people the "drop mag-it's empty-bang.." gets people each and every year.

    Agree with you that the money might be better spent on effective carry ammo (and more range time). Some real quality training would also be great, but it's expensive and with most security companies high turnover rate might make it kind of a waste.
     
  8. larry_minn

    larry_minn Member

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    Agree given the limited info here keep the mod 13s. Maybe allow personal weapons if person wants more and can qualify. I started with a mod 10 that I looked at for less then 5 min then carried my personal S&W 66-2. I would NOT settle on mag ammo. A good +P 38 is much easier to control and no "stigma" of a MAGNUM..... I was MUCH more accurate rapid fire with +P then mag ammo. Less muzzle flash and noise.
    I would NOT feel undergunned with a +P 38 and spare speedloaders. Odds are I would make one at least full house mags. Also all S&W K frame 357 will NOT take a large diet of full house mags. THey will function MANY times longer with +P 38.
    And I love the Glocks but for this case a revolver (esp since you already have them) is better idea. BUT make sure they spend part of money that would go for new guns on ammo/ retention holsters, training AND a fund to replace them when they do start to wear out.
     
  9. sonoranjack

    sonoranjack member

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    I've worked as an armed security guard employeed in contract security. I hate revolvers. I don't like DA/SA pistols either. I like my Glock 17. If I couldn't carry a Glock 17 & must carry revolver, DAO pistol or DA/SA pistol. I would choose a Beretta Model D (DAO) w/ a trigger pull of 8# to 9.5# for every trigger pull. I would probably choose the Beretta Cougar 8000D. Now who has to pay for the handguns? The guard or the employeer? If the employeer that means ya gotta buy new pistols for the guard force then train them to use the new pistols. How about having a guide line for type of handguns & let the guard carry their own weapon? The worst thing ya can do is supply the weapon & then pass the weapon between shifts. Ya the co has control over the weapon but the guard can't practice w/ weaspon. So qualification scores would be poor. The best policy to have would be to have the guard supply their own weapon from a list of manufacturers: S&W, Colt, Beretta, Glock, HK, Sig, Kimber, Ruger, SA, Or any other name brand handgun manufacturers by permission. Any action SA, DAO, or DA/SA. in .38, .357 magnum, .9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, or .45. No SA cowboy style revolvers. then have a strict qualification requirement.
     
  10. CZF

    CZF Member

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    Why carry what Everyone else carries??

    Want a highly dependable, but very affordable 15-shot 9mm
    with honest-to-goodness hi-caps for your officers?

    A decocker(very safe) that points well and is carried by many
    a police force across the planet.

    The CZ75BD Police. Comes with a ten rounder and a 15 shot mag.
    all for about $350 dealer.

    The new CZ-P01 is more compact..but holsters would be a
    problem.

    Dare to be different.

    www.cz-usa.com
     

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  11. Dave Markowitz

    Dave Markowitz Member

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    Based on the facts you presented, I suggest retaining the Model 13s and spending the money on ammo for practice and training.

    Software, not hardware.
     
  12. J.Gillespie

    J.Gillespie Member

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    I would suggest going with Glock. Very easy to train on, simple yet reliable. Easy to clean the dust off since they don't draw their guns much.
     
  13. Penman

    Penman Member

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    How many hours are dedicated to firearms training and qualification? If the program doesn't provide a good block of time and you are staffing with a high turnover and low interest in firearms, stay with the revolvers. They are solid, reliable units that everyone can understand. +P .38's are a good choice, from the equipment longevity and controllability aspects.
     
  14. KY Moose

    KY Moose Member

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    Ditto on Glock. My vote goes with the Glock 17 and Glock 19. The Glocks are easy to maintain and train with. The 9mm will be easy on the budget. You can get it pretty cheep, even cheeper when bought in bulk.
     
  15. Soap

    Soap Member

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    What Frodo sez.
     
  16. Chris Rhines

    Chris Rhines Member

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    Can you be a little bit more specific as to what you are securing? Is it patrol or site security? Threat level? What kind of training do the officers have, and what can they expect in the future?

    My knee-jerk reaction is the same as Dan and Frodo, but other than that I'll play the "need more info" card. :)

    - Chris
     
  17. Poohgyrr

    Poohgyrr Member

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    First, there are a lot of "non dedicated" personnel carrying handguns all over the world. All sorts of handguns.

    Second, reducing training to save short term training costs is a huge risk in long term liability costs. This includes personal possessions, like bank accounts and houses. :banghead:

    That said, I'd look for something these employees do their best with, and they have to have good ammo as well. A good M13 is not a bad choice.

    It is surprising how many non dedicated personnel do well with Glocks, which a large Federal Agency (ATF) has declared double action only. Very simple, easy to train, easy to maintain, reliable, and accurate. If Admin complains about the stock trigger (very successful worldwide), just put the NY1 trigger spring in them for a consistant proven safe 8 lb trigger pull (also successful worldwide). Approved by lots of Administrators all over the place. Food for thought.

    IDPA should be encouraged for training.

    Not that I have strong opinions or anything. :)
     
  18. mrstang01

    mrstang01 Member

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    Basic setup is one office on dedicated post at main gate with 2 other officers manning 2 less trafficed gates, 1 for employees only, and 1 for trucks. There is one officer roving on patrol. At night there is one officer on post at the main gate, and one on patrol.

    Sorry guys, I know there's a lot of you who will promote Glocks, and I know the safety on them should be between your ears. Having said that, the Glock is the last auto I would recommend, given the number of ND's the LPD and other agencies have had with the Glock.


    Turnover is very low, our guards are employed by the company, not an outside security force, most of the force has been on for over 10 years.

    The company owns the revolvers, and each guard is issued one. However, they are kept locked up at the main post, and they draw them at the beginning of their shifts, and return them to the locker at the end of it. They are not permitted to take them off campus (another thing I disagree with, I believe the officers should be issued them just like with a PD, but you know how the lawyers are on liability).
     
  19. Marshall

    Marshall Member

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    After reading all the posts, it sure would seem logical to keep them using revelovers, in my opinion. They are used to them, no retraining issues to speak of, dependable, and heck, no one has ever had to pull one out of their holster in 50 years so it doesn't "sound" like a high risk environment.
     
  20. PCRCCW

    PCRCCW Member

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    The company owns the guns....no guns off site? When do they get cleaned? How does the company expect any of the people to actually hit anything they may NEED to without a chance to shoot them occasionally? I gotta wonder..shoot well
     
  21. sonoranjack

    sonoranjack member

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    Level of threat BS

    I don't get this what's the level of threat BS. Lets face it security work is more dangerous the working as a cop. Cops may encounter vlolent attacks more often than security guards. But cops survive violent attacks better than security guards. Why better equipment, training, & backup. Ok most security guard that get killed are unarmed. Armed guards are mostly armored car guards that get killed in an ambush style robbery. But why should "level of threat" determan the type of weapon used? The standered should be "what weapon does the guard shoot the best?". The same standered that any civilan uses to pick a carry weapon. Revolvers have there place as, "learning tools". I carry a Glock 17 because that's the pistol I shoot the best. If I had to qualify w/ a revolver my score would be worse than shooting the same qalification w/ my Glock 17.
     
  22. firestar

    firestar member

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    If it were my company, I would buy them all SS Ruger P95DCs. Rugged, reliable, accurate, inexpensive, light weight, simple, American Made!!!:)
     
  23. sonoranjack

    sonoranjack member

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    Company weapons keeped on property.

    Only works if the co sets up w/ a local firing range an identital weapon available for practice including ammo.
     
  24. Lord Grey Boots

    Lord Grey Boots Member

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    They have good guns now. Keep them. Spend the $400-$500 each on training....
     
  25. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

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    Like the guy in front of me sez..:)
     
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