Help with Berrys 45acp 185gr HBRN

[ImjinScout]

I was hoping to get a little help with loading these new bullets. I currently load the 200gr swc and 230gr rn and decided to try these 185gr hbrn. I am loading 5.4 gr of hp-38 to col of 1.25 and a crimp dia. of .470, and these shoot fine in my guns.

Now last night I tried the 5.4 gr with the 185's and it was a no go, wouldn't cycle my guns and a lot of failure to ejects. Since according to hodgon I'm approaching the max load was wondering if any one else loads this combo. I also have noticed that the older load manuals called for higher charge weights than what they do now, thanks for any help.


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[Hit_Factor]

Try reducing the recoil spring weight. I used to load these but I can't remember the specifics. I was probably using titegroup or n320.

 

[Blue68f100]

I use WST with the Berry's 185gr HBRN so I can't help you there. Remember Berry's says you can go to Mid data jacketed.

 

[Walkalong]

I am surprised the 5.4 Gr charge of HP-38 will not cycle the gun. Is it a short barreled, light slide, with heavy spring, set up?

 

[ImjinScout]

The two guns that I tried are my 3rd Gen S&W's a 4566TSW and a M457 which is a compact 45. I really don't want to lower the spring rate as I also shoot full power loads, and I wouldn't know where to get them for these older models. I am thinking of trying 5.7gr to see if this works. I know typically for a lighter bullet it does require a little more charge weight, but now I'm getting to the high end, what do you guys think,

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[Jim Watson]

I have only used them for light loads in a gun with 12 lb recoil spring but they did take a heavier charge than a flatbase bullet. I think because the hollow base that gives more bearing surface and allows longer OAL increases the working volume of the case.

Lyman MAXIMUM is 6.1 gr W231 (=HP38) with a 185 gr JHP at shorter OAL so I think you have some room to increase the load.

I like the bullet but sent them an e-mail suggesting they make one with a smaller hollow to give a 200 gr RN with hardball shape. Bear Creek makes a moly coated lead bullet like that.

 

[LiveLife]

I think Berry's MFG wanted their 185 gr HBRN to match the nose profile of 230 gr FMJ RN (see comparison picture below with factory 230 gr FMJ on the left) but this resulted in a significantly larger hollow base that lowers chamber pressures. I load them to 1.25" OAL to feed/chamber reliably in multiple pistols and during my workup, 5.6 gr of W231/HP-38 started to produce reliable slide cycling.

I referenced current Hodgdon and older Winchester load data along with Lyman #49 for my work up. Note that current load data max of 5.9 gr is for JSWC bullet at 1.135" OAL and using Berry's 185 gr HBRN at 1.250" OAL with the large hollow base would be like seating the same JSWC very shallow.

185 gr Hornady JSWC W231/HP-38 OAL 1.135" Start 5.0 gr (762 fps) 12,000 CUP - Max 5.9 gr (906 fps) 15,800 CUP

 

[ImjinScout]

Thanks, that's good info,

Bds, thanks for the detailed info, it looks like I will be at about 5.7 to 5.8gr to get things to cycle properly. Do you think that this load will be ok? What did you end up at?

I thought that the hollow base was supposed to increase pressure due to the expansion in the barrel, not decrease it. And your right these are just like the 230gr rn, except for the deep cavity.

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[Walkalong]

The two guns that I tried are my 3rd Gen S&W's a 4566TSW and a M457 which is a compact 45

The reason I asked is that I have a light .45 ACP load that cycles my 1911s and CZ97 with stock springs, but when shot in a PT145 with a small light slide and heavy springs it turned that gun into a single shot.

 

[Ric]

I use 6.0 grn of 231
Works well in my Glock and 1911's

 

[ImjinScout]

Ya, last night when trying those loads,I had a couple of single shot semi autos

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[LiveLife]

Yes, I do think the hollow base helps with sealing with the barrel but the hollow cavity is big enough to lower the chamber pressure when the powder initially ignites. I have also pondered the effects of powder being tossed forward into the cavity as the slide cycles and chambers the next round (as some have posted inconsistent results with lower powder charges), but this effect seemed to diminish with charges above 5.6 gr. as evidenced by more reliable slide cycling and consistent accuracy.

My workup was done with M&P45 and 1911s with powder charges to 6.1 gr. weighed on Ohaus 10-10. For regular reloading sessions, Pro Auto Disk drops 5.6 and 6.0 gr and these are the charges I typically use although I have thought about making a 5.8 gr drop hole. I shoot at indoor ranges and could not chrono these loads but found these numbers on Brian Enos forum - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=121552&#entry1472843

Looking at the velocity numbers, I may reconsider doing my work up to 6.2 and 6.4 gr of W231/HP-38 but since they are above published load data max, please do it at your own risk.

5.6 gr 1.22 OAL 774.84 fps average, 47.6 standard deviation PF=143.3
6.0 gr 1.23 OAL 829.85 fps avg 22.08 sd PF = 153.5
6.2 gr 1.23 OAL 844.50 fps avg 26.41 sd PF = 156.2
6.4 gr 1.23 OAL 888.34 fps avg 21.68 sd PF = 164.3
6.6 gr 1.23 OAL 927.58 fps avg 23.54 sd PF = 171.6

 

[ImjinScout]

bds, thanks again for the link, that was some good info for these bullets and HP-38 (W231).

Well tomorrow I will work up some loads and try to get to the range on Monday night. I will load some test loads up with 5.7gr and 5.9gr and see how these work out in my guns.

I also shoot at an indoor range and do not have access to a chrony, I will post the results of these loads so as to help any else that may be using this combo.

These are what I will load:
1.250 COL - 5.7gr of HP-38 and a crimp dia. of .470, Mixed brass and CCI primers.

Same specs but with 5.9gr of HP-38

 

[ImjinScout]

Range report on the loads that I worked up. The 5.7gr loads were starting to help with reliable slide cycling, so on to the next loads that I decided to load at 6.0grs. Well this load seemed to do the trick, I had reliable cycling and the rounds were very accurate. As I don't have access to a chrony I can't begin to say where they were at velocity wise, but the felt recoil was close to my 5.4gr loads for 230gr RN and the 200gr SWC

I just loaded up about 100 rounds using the 6.0gr and next chance I can get to the range I will do a more detailed session on accuracy and gun reliability,

Thanks to for the help

 

[wmurphy]

5.7 gr. W-231 works good in 3 different .45 ACP guns I have.

 

[Dudemeister]

I loaded those with 4gr. of Clays and it's very nice, medium load that cycles my Sig 1911 perfectly. Never had one failure.

 

[chrisgo]

I have loaded and shot at least 6000 of these in my S&W 1911 Doug Koenig signature. I use WW LP primer and 6.1 grains of 231. I tried 5.5 gr and was not happy with the cycling.

 

[1SOW]

bds is right on the money. The Berry's RNHB (RN AND FN) acts the same way with 9mm.
The hollow base adds air space and decreases pressure noticeably. The HB bullet is "longer" than the flat base RN bullet at the same weight, but leaves the same amount of powder clearance. Shortening the oal or loading up can work.

 

[Flt Simulation]

Just so I understand this correctly ...

The Berry's 185gr hollow base RN has the exact overall dimensions as the Berry's 230gr RN ... except the 185gr hollow based gets it's lighter weight because of the hollow area in it's base?

If true, both bullets then would be set to the same OAL, but the 185gr would need a little more powder do to the fact that it will have a greater case volume (if set at the same OAL as the 230gr non-hollow based bullet) do to the hollowed out area.

Am I right in assuming this?
___________________________________

EDIT: Since I can't find any load data on the Berry's website, I would think the 185gr hollow base RN would be set to an OAL similar to any other .45ACP RN bullet (maybe in the 1.24" - 1.26" range) for good feeding in the 1911.

BTW ... Can you measure one of those 185gr hollow base RN bullets and tell me what the length of it is? ... I may order some to try out.

.

 

[Flt Simulation]

I found this post written by Jay R. Phillips of Berry's Mfg in another message board:


Topic: Berry's .45 ACP 185gr HBRN

"We appreciate your support. These are my very favorite .45 caliber bullet and the most accurate we make. I find that a faster burning powder helps obtrude the hollow base before it gets down the barrel.

I use Titegroup for mine and load the COL the same as my 230gr RN at 1.26"

 

[kerreckt]

I load these using power pistol with OAL 1.25 no problems with any of my five .45 pistols. The 185grHBRN are .600 in length.

 

[Blue68f100]

Just so I understand this correctly ...

The Berry's 185gr hollow base RN has the exact overall dimensions as the Berry's 230gr RN ... except the 185gr hollow based gets it's lighter weight because of the hollow area in it's base?

If true, both bullets then would be set to the same OAL, but the 185gr would need a little more powder do to the fact that it will have a greater case volume (if set at the same OAL as the 230gr non-hollow based bullet) do to the hollowed out area.

Am I right in assuming this?
___________________________________

EDIT: Since I can't find any load data on the Berry's website, I would think the 185gr hollow base RN would be set to an OAL similar to any other .45ACP RN bullet (maybe in the 1.24" - 1.26" range) for good feeding in the 1911.

BTW ... Can you measure one of those 185gr hollow base RN bullets and tell me what the length of it is? ... I may order some to try out.

.

Yes you are correct. I contacted Berry's when I first started using them. It make setting the bullet seating die easy since there both the same.

 

[1SOW]

The lead weight removed from the base of the bullet is added back to the 'body' making it slightly longer. Because the base is hollow, it can be loaded at the same oal as the regular RN. The mass of the added length is the exact same as the mass of the hollowed base.

 

[splithoof]

I use 5.5 grains of Bullseye and Wolf primers; It will function in everything tried so far, and when loaded in full moon clips literally jumps into the 625's cylinder. Just as accurate as most 200 LSW loads, but a lot cleaner. They also flow really easily in Dillon machines.