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Here Is The Deal On November 2nd

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Bartholomew Roberts, Nov 1, 2004.

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  1. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    An average of all the different polls basicaly shows a 2% lead by Bush. This is a narrow enough lead that it can be completely undone by just a slightly larger than anticipated turnout.

    At this point, the guy whose people do a better job of showing up at the polls and voting is going to win the election. Every vote will count tomorrow, this is especially true in Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, New Mexico and even Hawaii.

    You've got a clear choice between these two candidates on guns:

    Kerry co-sponsored S.1431 - the bill expanding the ban on semi-auto weapons to include guns such as the Remington 1187 he was photographed with on the campaign trail.

    Kerry voted twice to kill the CMP. If he doesn't trust you with 1903 bolt-actions and Garands, what does he trust you with?

    Kerry voted in March to extend the assault-weapons ban.

    Also in February, Ted Kennedy stood up to introduce his bill saying:

    "Another rifle caliber, the 30.30 caliber, was responsible for penetrating three officers' armor and killing them in 1993, 1996, and 2002. This ammunition is also capable of puncturing light-armored vehicles, ballistic or armored glass, armored limousines, even a 600-pound safe with 600 pounds of safe armor plating.

    It is outrageous and unconscionable that such ammunition continues to be sold in the United States of America." (Page S1634 of the Congressional Record, February 26, 2004)

    Finally, John Kerry has a 100% record from the Brady Campaign (formerly Handgun Control). In 21 years in the Senate, he has never voted against them.

    John Kerry voted YES to ban .30-30 and other centerfire rifle ammo as armor-piercing.

    In contrast you have George W. Bush, who during his term:

    1. UN Small Arms Restrictions blocked by US

    2. Attorney General declares Second Amendment is individual right - reverses 35 years of previous Justice Department doctrine on the matter.

    3. Attorney General refuses to allow legitimate purchase of NICS data to be used for fishing expedition - Ashcroft stops grabbers from sifting through NICS data of legitimate purchasers to look for "terrorists".

    4. Ashcroft changes NICS data holding from 90 days to 1 day - NICS data on legitimate purchases will now be purged from the system in a single day as the law intended rather than being held onto for 90 days per Clinton policy

    5. Bush supports and will sign lawsuit preemption bill

    6. Bush ends taxpayer funding of useless HUD gun buybacks

    7. Signs bill closing loophole that prevented cargo pilots from being armed

    8. Signed the appropriations bill containing the Tiahrt Amendment that protects gunowner privacy by making item #4 the law of the land.

    9. Gets chance to have several things he claims to support (lawsuit preemption, gunshow background checks, semi-auto ban) on a single bill. Sends letter to Congress asking them to consider only lawsuit preemption.

    10. Partially repeals Clinton ban on import of some semi-auto firearm parts instituted in Summer of 2000 to allow import of parts for repair purposes. Doesn't repeal any Executive Orders relating to guns instituted by previous Presidents.

    Those are your choices. Gunowners exist in enough numbers that if we all do our part, there will be no question the pro-gun candidate will win. We have waited years to finally be in a position where we can have a pro-RKBA House, Senate and White House. If we do our part on turnout, tomorrow will be that day.
     
  2. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    I agree. Already voted.

    Remember Vote Early and Vote Often :evil: Just kidding.
     
  3. Fastlane

    Fastlane Member

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    Voting for Bush, he is not perfect but I can't stand Kerry. Most of the people that I work with are voting for Bush and I work for an PBS Station in SW Ohio.
     
  4. halvey

    halvey Member

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    All the pundits seem to be saying Bush will win, but it will be close. I'm not so sure. I can see Kerry getting the electoral votes and Bush the popular vote. Kind of 2000 in reverse.
     
  5. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    I am not a huge Bush fan but as a gun owner and in a time of conflict I absolutely think he is the better idiot for the job. JFK is pretty much everything I despise rolled into one pile of s....I mean one package.

    My wish is for an election where I either really like one candidate or one where I actually have a hard time choosing between the too.

    As for the quote above. Right, wrong, good, bad you have to admit it would be kind of poetic justice for the left. I say this as an unbiased outside observer. I absolutely don't want it to happen but you would have to see the political irony in it.
     
  6. itgoesboom

    itgoesboom member

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    This is an easy election for me.

    I disagree with several things that Bush has done.

    But Kerry would be a disaster for RKBA and for our fine Country.

    I voted Bush.

    I.G.B.
     
  7. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    Did the Bush administration allow airline pilots to be armed?

    Has Bush ever recanted his support for Assault Weapon Ban Renewal?
     
  8. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    There will be a ton of partisan polls released today and "woe unto us" stories by both sides. All of these are designed to do one thing - convince you not to go vote tomorrow. As a result, you'll see stories showing a clear Bush win and stories showing Kerry has it sewed up. None of that stuff matters.

    The most important thing we can do now is get out and vote regardless of what the polls say. Vote, no matter what it takes to get there and drag someone of like mind with you and make sure they vote as well.
     
  9. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    Yes, it seems it's going to be very close. Voter fraud may be at an all time high, and I expect, demand, the Republicans aggressively ferret it out after the election.
     
  10. duckslayer

    duckslayer Member

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    We used the computer touch-screen voting booths this year, so I can also forsee serious voter fraud this year. There is no paper record to verify now.
     
  11. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe Member

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    Yep. and that's why I'm voting for Michael Peroutka.
     
  12. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    Ohio's too close, Peroutka won't win, and you'll be kicking yourself for the next 4-8 years if Kerry does manage to successfully sue his way into the Whitehouse. Trust me on this, I voted for Perot.
     
  13. HankB

    HankB Member

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    People who voted for Perot in '92 and '96 helped elect Slick Willie. Twice.

    People who voted for Nader in'00 helped elect Bush.

    Gun owners who vote for Peroutka, Badnarik, etc., if they're in a battleground state are only going to help Kerry - pretending otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

    Despite Bush's faults as president - and he has many - a Kerry presidency would be much, much worse. "Making a statement" by voting third party in a state where things are close may make one feel some satisfaction for a few hours, but given the possible outcome . . . :banghead:

    Considering how bad Kerry would be, gun owners in battleground states should hold their noses, suppress their gag reflex, and vote for Bush.
     
  14. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe Member

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    I know Peroutka won't win. But I don't care. I can't in good conscience vote for Bush. And if sKerry wins, so be it. If a conflict is inevitable, as some say it is, I’d rather have it happen sooner than later.
     
  15. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    Did the Bush administration allow airline pilots to be armed?

    Has Bush ever recanted his support for Assault Weapon Ban Renewal?
     
  16. oldfart

    oldfart Member

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    "If a conflict is inevitable, as some say it is, I’d rather have it happen sooner than later."

    There won't be anything like an armed conflict. Instead, we'll have years of low-intensity disharmony. We'll see more people raided for arms violations, drug violations, paperwork violations and even traffic violations. Little by little, we'll all become outlaws, either unable to own guns or unwilling to endanger our families and positions by owning them. sitting behind keyboards in warm homes or offices, it's easy to be tough, but when the man comes to your door with an armored van and twenty black-clad troops, demanding you give up your guns or die, it'll get cold and dank very quickly.
    I know, those things won't happen to everybody nor will they happen to very many, but it won't take nearly as many as you think to change your outlook.
    The bad thing about all this is the fact that no matter which guy wins the oval office, the eventual outcome will be the same. I think Bush will get us ther a bit less quickly though, which may give us a chance to salvage some part of the Constitution that Kerry would waste.
    Now, let's hear it from the guys who point out that things are getting better for gunowners because we now have CCW. The government also knows who has those permits too. When (not 'IF') the government finally decides to get tough, who will be on the top of their list to visit?
     
  17. NoHarmNoFAL

    NoHarmNoFAL Member

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    Your point?
     
  18. TooTaxed

    TooTaxed Member

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    I'm retired, have time on my hands (when I'm not at the range or reloading!), have two computers and a cable connection, and early became fascinated with researching the various campaign issues to get all the available pro and con facts. When possible, that is...some issues are based on religion (stem cell research, e.g.) or personal predudices (gotta put gun control here, as sell as gay laws, social security, ect).

    Early on discovered that the positions are largely based on partial facts and carefully selected facts, omitting any that would not be beneficial to the stated position. Interestingly, found that when all facts are gathered...and if you dig, it's surprising what's out there!... (e.g., for Bush's Air National Guard duty: timeline, annual flight hours/year v. minimum required, request for leave to campaign, Air National Guard policy at the time, annual evaluations, superior's comments, ect.) the Republican positions were vindicated...including the Democratic issues on the 17% Medicare cost increase, plot to institute the draft. Kerry's Vietnam combat experience has lots of documentation, mostly from the anti-Kerry side...except that I've been unable to get much in favor of Kerry, despite two requests to the Democratic Campaign Office. His post war blasting of the Vietnam American soldiers is well recorded, but not well backed by facts I could find. It is clear that he is an impressive orator and has amply demonstrated his ability to sway minds through oratory.

    Although I find much in the Democratic campaign planks to like, Bush has to be the choice. The overriding issue is national security, Bush has shown himself to be decisive and strong, and Kerry's anti-fellow veteran diatribes and desire to discuss and negotiate for favorable European opinion before acting convince me that he is not the person to lead us in an international campaign against terrorism. And, of course, his anti-gun possession support...if he wins and gets his way, four years from now it will be a miracle if we still have our semi-automatics and large bore cartridge rifles...there can be no compensation program, just toss them in a bin for the chopper.:banghead:
     
  19. NoHarmNoFAL

    NoHarmNoFAL Member

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    Old Fart, give it up if they haven't seen the light now they never will. I just want to keep record of all those Idealogs that voted third party when they were really needed and then to cry when .22 LR is $25.00/50. You vote your conscience, good for you and thanks a lot remind me to rely on your conscience in a pinch.
     
  20. garrettwc

    garrettwc Member

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    In addition to the excellent examples given by Bart Roberts, I would like to add the following:

    The make up of the judiciary, from Federal Districts all the way up to the Supreme Court.

    Support for our troops and the security of our country.

    There are probably dozens of others, that have been hased and rehashed here over the last few months.

    I will be at the polls when the doors open. I will be encouraging my friends, both decided and undecided to go to the polls and vote as well. The future of our country is at stake.

    I for one, will stand up and be counted.

    See you at the polls.
     
  21. Gordon Fink

    Gordon Fink Member

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    John Kerry will win California. If all the California Libertarians, Greens, and communists were to vote for G. W. Bush and were to prevent an equal number of Democrats from voting, then John Kerry would still win California.

    Therefore, even if I thought G. W. Bush were marginally better than Kerry, which I don’t, I still wouldn’t vote for him.

    ~G. Fink
     
  22. Sam Adams

    Sam Adams Member

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    Lone Gunman and Molon Labe

    Guys, one thing that you have to understand is that no one is perfect - NO ONE. Not you, me, your wives (if you've got one) or your parents, nor mine. Yet, I chose my wife (and she chose me) as my parents chose each other, knowing full well that the other person wasn't perfect, just better than the rest. You, if married, chose your wife on the same basis, as she did you, and as your parents chose each other. The point here is that this world ISN'T about perfection, its about doing the best you can with what you're handed. You work toward perfection by trying to improve things, but to expect perfection in ANY field of endeavor is wholely unrealistic and impractical.

    Right now, this election is realistically between two people, admittedly both imperfect on most issues. The least bad choice is Bush. Kerry is the wrong person to be making foreign and defense policy, the wrong guy to be making tax policy, the wrong guy to be making health care policy, etc., etc. He is ABSOLUTELY the wrong guy to be making policy regarding the RKBA.

    You can sulk and complain about Bush being imperfect - and you'd be right - but that won't help you or anyone else (most especially us gunowners). I have many complaints about Bush myself, and if this was a primary I surely would be voting for someone else. But this ISN'T the primary, it is the General, and the alternative is a left-wing, anti-gun, military-hating, tax-raising, UN-loving freak, who has the endorsement of Michael Moore, Barbara Streisand and Yassir Arafat, among other notable scumbags. Bush is far from perfect, but not nearly so as Kerry. Kerry, in fact, is the antithesis of what I want in a President or other leader on every level.

    Think, man! Can you possibly want someone in office who has voted to basically ban all centerfire rifle ammo? Someone endorsed with a 100% rating from the Brady Bunch, someone who makes Ted Kennedy look moderate? For this you'd be willing to sacrifice a guy who told the UN to eff-off when it came to registering guns and limiting availability of same, a guy who artfully allowed the AWB to expire, who signed CHL legislation in Texas less than 10 years ago, and who is pursuing Bin Laden and his ilk to the ends of the earth? That makes no sense to me, and I'm no Bush cheerleader. THINK, THINK, THINK!!!

    Molon Labe, you said
    I cannot think of a more selfish, impractical, anti-social point of view than voting for the worst available realistic alternative, and hoping for lots of pain, repression, etc., so as to advance the likelihood and timing of a civil war. I think that you should review this Winston Churchill quote before you cast your vote:

    "Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
     
  23. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    Kerry is going to win MA.

    I'm voting Libertarian.
     
  24. Mr. James

    Mr. James Member

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    Respectfully, HankB, I concede no such point. A refresher from pax's math-made-simple: To paraphrase, if 13,550 High Roaders vote for Bush, and 29 High Roaders vote for Lurch, and Mr. James votes for Peroutka, how many votes has Bush? How many votes has Lurch? My vote for Peroutka or Badnarik or Nader won't add or subtract one vote from either of the Skull-n-Bones twins.

    garett, true enough. But when have Bush or the Repugnicoward majority in the Senate ever stood up to the socialist special-pleaders who've managed to scuttle dozens of Bush appointees? Hell, the Senate GOP caucus has essentially surrendered on the idea of a filibuster-proof "super-majority" being required to confirm an apellate-level judge.

    Well, at least if President Jean-Francois Kerry nominates Charles Schumer to the Supreme Court, maybe then the Republicans will actually exercise their majority, right? :scrutiny: We're not still setting out cookies and milk for the jolly fat man, are we?


    What has this republic come to that in a nation of some 300 milllion souls, our fate rests in the hands of two guys who went to the same school, and were members of the same fifteen-member-a-year secret fraternity at roughly the same time?

    Nader was right. :what: We don't have a two-party system, we have a one-party system: The Incumbent Party.

    Woe is us.

    Finally, and back to your regularly scheduled Bush apologetics:

    - John Adams
     
  25. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    Although I understand and even agree with the third party voters, I can't fathom how voting for a foregone loser is going to gain you anything. All politics are local, and unless you've done your "grassroots" work, you're just a disgruntled spoiler, IMO.
     
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